DC_Bengals_Fan Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 We have a great kicker, and have been spoiled as such. Some day we'll have a lousy one, who routinely misses chip shots, has no leg, or totally chokes under pressure. Then we'll wish we had Shayne back.Look, they don't call the guy Moneygraham for nothing.It's always fun when someone on here starts knocking our kicker and BengalSIS swoops in to whup a little ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjcgc Posted November 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Obviously I can't name his replacement, but I can't understand everyone here being so satisfied with his performance lately.It seems that there is no shortage of competent kickers out there, otherwise you'd hear much more about missed FGsat the end of games than it actually happens.Since everyone wants to speak in hard numbers, I'd be interested to see the numbers for the last 3 years in # of games he has"won" in the closing moments by making the kick and ones where he failed to connect. Maybe I'm full of it, but I can't recall manylately where he came in and closed the deal. Like I said earlier, through little fault of his own he has not been put in that situationvery often, but has failed miserably of late when it came down to make the kick and win.Also since he is on the verge of free agency, it is going to be time for the Bengals to decide if his performance is worthy of a big pay day.I'm sure BengalSis will gladly become CowboysSis (any AnyTeamSis for that matter) if the payday is there for her brother tocash in. Based on his blowing so many games, in my estimation he is not worth the truly elite money. I'm sure other teams willfeel that he is based on the kind of stats everyone mentioned in this thread.He definitely hasn't lived up to the title MoneyGraham lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walrus Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 He has a wonderful percentage (#3 all timeAll the measurables, all the stats, anything quantifiable, Graham shows he is an excellent kicker.So you criticize him by saying he's a choker. Convenient that the quality you say he lacks (ability under pressure) isn't something that can be measured in any way. Completely subjective measurement. I'll say this in his defense - The end of the '06 season had a lot to do with the things that happened before Shayne swung his leg, like the snap and the hold. One last thing, since you are so ready to let Shayne walk, you must know something I don't, that there sits idly by a great kicker we can get in here who will be better than Shayne Graham. Please name him.Bring back Neil Rackers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Question.Has anyone actually gone back to find games in which he "choked"? I'm sure someone has the time. Use the following criteria for your search. "Games in which a missed kick in the final two minutes of the game that could have tied or won the game." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Statistically speaking, the Bengals' kicking game is average to slightly above-average. Cincinnati ranks 19th with a 64.3 yard average on kickoffs (but there's a 4-way tie at 15 just ahead of us). We've had 8 touchbacks, which represents a 6-way tie for 11th in the league. As a percentage of kicks that's a pretty good 8th-ranked 20.8%. We're 88% on FGs, which ranks us 13th.Frankly, I'm far more aggravated by our lousy punting game, which is 31st in both average and net average yardage. Didn't we just sign Larson to a new deal a few months ago? Way to holla back, there, Kyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnsonX5 Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I thought the biggest choke job or "falling apart" occurred when our offense failed to punch the ball in for a touchdown after Frostee gave it to us on the half inch line. That's choking. A 47 yard kick in the wind that misses by only a few feet? Not so much. I'm not at all concerned about Graham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Question.Has anyone actually gone back to find games in which he "choked"? I'm sure someone has the time. Use the following criteria for your search. "Games in which a missed kick in the final two minutes of the game that could have tied or won the game."Just eyeballing the sked back through '03 and clicking 3-point-or-less games to refresh my memory, I can only find one example and it would really, really, really be stretching it to call it a choke: missing a desperation 62-yard attempt against Tampa in '06.EDIT: forgot, he did miss against Pitt at the end of 2006, and they won in OT. Knew there was something I was forgetting, can't imagine why...By my count Shayne has hit three game winners: a 37-yarder in December of 2005 to beat the Browns, a 39-yarder to lift us over Miami in 2004 and, of course, the 24-yard strike to complete the Bengals' epic comeback against the Ravens in Baltimore in '04.He also tied us up against the Giants earlier this year before we lost in OT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 After watching four or five of Rocca's punts sail to the Bengals sidelines, a little adjustment by Graham might have been in order. Uhhhhh, he did adjust. After regulation play ended, and before overtime began, they showed Opie getting in at least one practice kick that missed....to the left...due to the wind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidge Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Question.Has anyone actually gone back to find games in which he "choked"? I'm sure someone has the time. Use the following criteria for your search. "Games in which a missed kick in the final two minutes of the game that could have tied or won the game."Just eyeballing the sked back through '03 and clicking 3-point-or-less games to refresh my memory, I can only find one example and it would really, really, really be stretching it to call it a choke: missing a desperation 62-yard attempt against Tampa in '06.By my count Shayne has hit three game winners: a 37-yarder in December of 2005 to beat the Browns, a 39-yarder to lift us over Miami in 2004 and, of course, the 24-yard strike to complete the Bengals' epic comeback against the Ravens in Baltimore in '04.He also tied us up against the Giants earlier this year before we lost in OT.^THIS.Our kicker is the least of our problems. Still, it's easier to just blame the loss solely on one player than to actually realise the offence stumbled by gaining only 13 points off of 4 TOs or in fact the OC was s**tting himself on the last drive and panicking us into one last s**tty run play that actually lost yardage.But yeah, it's all the kicker's fault for missing a 47 yard kick into a strong wind. Nobody else to blame. Everything was just dandy and went like clockwork apart from that.Is Graham the GOAT? No, but he's good enough and his constant choking (real or imagined) is not the reason for the Bengals' woes for the last couple of seasons. Unless it just makes you feel better about the situation as a whole and offers you hope.....oooh if only we had a kicker that didn't constantly choke - this awesome-O team would be going for a three-peat right now. Ra ra ra.Is that it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Also since he is on the verge of free agency, it is going to be time for the Bengals to decide if his performance is worthy of a big pay day. First things first. I have zero complaints. Opie has strengths and weaknesses like all players do, but I'm completely satisfied with his overall performance and would welcome watching him finish his career in Cincy. That said, the above IS an interesting point....precisely because Graham will be highly sought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregstephens Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I thought the biggest choke job or "falling apart" occurred when our offense failed to punch the ball in for a touchdown after Frostee gave it to us on the half inch line. That's choking. A 47 yard kick in the wind that misses by only a few feet? Not so much. I'm not at all concerned about Graham.Absol-freaking-lutely. Not to mention our failure to challenge the spot in the first place because I don't think Rucker was down by contact when he got in the endzone. Whatever.When you watch the twenty replays of the kick, it was lined up perfectly down the middle until it reached the endzone, then did that weird trailer to the right and missed by not even the few feet. It couldn't have been more than a football's width right. I don't blame him for the non-win a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Also since he is on the verge of free agency, it is going to be time for the Bengals to decide if his performance is worthy of a big pay day. First things first. I have zero complaints. Opie has strengths and weaknesses like all players do, but I'm completely satisfied with his overall performance and would welcome watching him finish his career in Cincy. That said, the above IS an interesting point....precisely because Graham will be highly sought.I've thought for a while that money might preclude them re-signing Shayne, not so much because of competition for his services (which I agree will be there) but just because he already has a sizable deal from when Jax tried to steal him as an RFA. I don't know what the Bengals consider "above pay grade" for a kicker, but I'm sure Shayne is closer to it than any kicker here has been before. That might have been the reason why nothing got done before the season when the two sides were talking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidge Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Yes. And I don't see Mikey wanting to pay a kicker anything like the bloated fee (for a kicker anyway) he could get in FA. Not that it really matters. Graham or no Graham, a nutless O-line is the big problem.At least the worriers will be safe in the knowledge that finally the ball and chain will be cut free and this team can finally claim its rightful place as Superbowl champs next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregstephens Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Statistically speaking, the Bengals' kicking game is average to slightly above-average. Cincinnati ranks 19th with a 64.3 yard average on kickoffs (but there's a 4-way tie at 15 just ahead of us). We've had 8 touchbacks, which represents a 6-way tie for 11th in the league. As a percentage of kicks that's a pretty good 8th-ranked 20.8%. We're 88% on FGs, which ranks us 13th.Frankly, I'm far more aggravated by our lousy punting game, which is 31st in both average and net average yardage. Didn't we just sign Larson to a new deal a few months ago? Way to holla back, there, Kyle. In fairness to Larson, the Bengals punt so often they've probably burned his leg out, much like the Reds did with young pitchers in the 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Well then, I think that's that. Most support Graham and deflect the game's problems to Chris Henry, offensive line, play calling other factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjcgc Posted November 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Well then, I think that's that. Most support Graham and deflect the game's problems to Chris Henry, offensive line, play calling other factors.I'm confused, this is the first time I've seen a forum moderator offer a summation of a thread. To what end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesperateDerelict Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Well then, I think that's that. Most support Graham and deflect the game's problems to Chris Henry, offensive line, play calling other factors.I'm confused, this is the first time I've seen a forum moderator offer a summation of a thread. To what end?Obviously, to "The End"Anyway, Captain Kirk is more of a Moderator Emeritus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I'm confused, this is the first time I've seen a forum moderator offer a summation of a thread. To what end? I'm confused, too. These threads are moderated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregstephens Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Well then, I think that's that. Most support Graham and deflect the game's problems to Chris Henry, offensive line, play calling other factors.I'm confused, this is the first time I've seen a forum moderator offer a summation of a thread. To what end?Yeah, most of us just lock them up without an explanation because the horse is ready for the glue factory, which is where we are quicking heading here, I suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidge Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 This is definitely venturing into a potential invoking of Godwin's Law. Every thread must have one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 He has a wonderful percentage (#3 all timeAll the measurables, all the stats, anything quantifiable, Graham shows he is an excellent kicker.So you criticize him by saying he's a choker. Convenient that the quality you say he lacks (ability under pressure) isn't something that can be measured in any way. Completely subjective measurement. I'll say this in his defense - The end of the '06 season had a lot to do with the things that happened before Shayne swung his leg, like the snap and the hold. One last thing, since you are so ready to let Shayne walk, you must know something I don't, that there sits idly by a great kicker we can get in here who will be better than Shayne Graham. Please name him.Bring back Neil Rackers! They are actually back in love with him out here in Arizona. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidge Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Billy, who is the condiment in your sig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Billy, who is the condiment in your sig?If I only knew Pidge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Graham being viewed as non-clutch traces back 100% to the end of the '06 season. He actually did miss an easy FG to beat the Steelers. Instead, it went into overtime, the Steelers won, and the Bengals missed the playoffs. People may have been willing to view this as a one time anomaly... but the season was full of these terrible bounces. ST's screwed up the snap for an extra point against Denver a couple weeks prior (and it is so easy to forget that Graham had nothing to do with that) and the infamous roughing the passer call against Justin Smith allowing TB to take the lead, with Graham missing a desperation 60+ yarder.But since that godawful season 2 years ago... This is the first FG that Graham has missed to win a game or send it to overtime. But the pain and angst from that ridiculous season that should have been a playoff season is too hard to forget. So I understand when a fan says he doesn't have confidence when Graham gets into a game winning situation... even if it's unfounded.But let's face it. Graham is no Vanderjagt. He was seriously the biggest choker ever. You can easily find a dozen obvious choke jobs by him. Graham isn't that guy. Of course, he's not Vinatieri either... but he is far better than the average NFL kicker - and you don't send guys like him packing because of a missed 47 yarder in windy conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 infamous roughing the passer call against Justin Smith allowing TB to take the leadWho will ever forget that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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