Pass Rush?

[BengalPappaw]

After three preseason games, I've come to the conclusion that we can't rush the passer useless we are unblocked! or send everyone.

We need more than that.

I also don't see any ONE player as solving our problem. So Antwan Odom might help -- but he is not going to correct our problem by himself.

We need a good pass rush from both sides.

"Bumpy" Geathers seems to only get a pass rush when he's unblocked. The rest of the time he's "bumping" around at the line of scrimage.

Fanene has not shown me much more than that. Blackstock had one occasion when he beat the OT around the corner.

If we don't find someone soon -- I'll have to turn to the draft and hope in April.

I hate this waiting for April. I may love the draft, but I am getting tired of that being the only thing I look forward to with the Bengals.

[Walrus]

You're definitely not the only one who has noticed. Problem is, this is old news -- we already knew the pass rush sucked since the only change from last year is swapping Smith for Odom, who isn't playing. So in the absense of the one factor that could *possibly* have improved our pass rush, it's more worthwhile to gripe about the newly exposed weak points (ie Oline, Utecht and C Perry aren't going to solve all our woes, etc).

Actually, I'll qualify that a bit -- IMO we're no worse off with a healthy Fanene in there than J Smith.

[agreen_112]

If only Shaun Rodgers were a Bengal... We were one player away from having a great pass rush and ownership let him slip away.

[HoosierCat]

If only Shaun Rodgers were a Bengal... We were one player away from having a great pass rush and ownership let him slip away.

Well, at least we would on the 50% of plays Rogers didn't take off...

I'm certainly disappointed about not seeing Odom, but even if he been in I have to wonder whether we would have seen anything. The Bengals have been very vanilla on D all preseason. I've seen a few generic third-down blitzes, that's about it. Aside from the more physical play by guys like White, this looks no different than a watered-down version of last year's "bend-and-eventually-break" D.

I suspect Zimmer has a wee bit more in store for us than that.

[Walrus]

If only Shaun Rodgers were a Bengal... We were one player away from having a great pass rush and ownership let him slip away.

Well, at least we would on the 50% of plays Rogers didn't take off...

Well, that would bring us up close to 50%. I'd take it.

I'm certainly disappointed about not seeing Odom, but even if he been in I have to wonder whether we would have seen anything. The Bengals have been very vanilla on D all preseason. I've seen a few generic third-down blitzes, that's about it. Aside from the more physical play by guys like White, this looks no different than a watered-down version of last year's "bend-and-eventually-break" D.

I suspect Zimmer has a wee bit more in store for us than that.

I wish I were as optimistic. Frankly, I don't think our guys can handle anything more than "vanilla". Our very talented DBs are having enough trouble handling vanilla man coverage. I think if we were going to see a major change in how the front 4 pass rush, we would've seen it by now. We simply don't have the talent to passrush. Period. John Thornton does not have that talent. Peko doesn't have that talent. Geathers is mediocre. Maybe Odom will help, but I'm not expecting too much -- especially early in the season.

We do have some potential sitting on the bench, but guys like Henderson, Fanene et al. can't stay healthy enough to even be hyped anymore. Maybe that kid from UC will come outta nowhere and dazzle us all...

[kingwilly]

After watching Shirley move things around, he will make a difference sooner rather than later. Thornton is a seriously weak link. Odom is unknown. Peko is pleasantly surprising me with is quicknes and athleticism. Sims will help once he gets his toe healed.

They need to use more zone bitzing. NO had it down with their 1's vs our line. Sending White on a weakside stunt could be a very effective tool. With our r1 corners, we should be able to get some action on the rush.

Maybe we are seeing Zimmer's vanilla....OR we are seeing a very slow grasp and transition of a new scheme. You decide.

[skyline]

If only Shaun Rodgers were a Bengal... We were one player away from having a great pass rush and ownership let him slip away.

Well, at least we would on the 50% of plays Rogers didn't take off...

I'm certainly disappointed about not seeing Odom, but even if he been in I have to wonder whether we would have seen anything. The Bengals have been very vanilla on D all preseason. I've seen a few generic third-down blitzes, that's about it. Aside from the more physical play by guys like White, this looks no different than a watered-down version of last year's "bend-and-eventually-break" D.

I suspect Zimmer has a wee bit more in store for us than that.

I'm thinking along the same lines, Hoosier. They're hardly sending anyone after the qb outside of their front 4, except for very rare occasions (last week, for example, when the Saints went for it on 4th down early on).

Surely that will change once the games become real.

[ArmyBengal]

All we can do is "hope" we see more and it was just due to the preseason. If not, the lack of pass rush will once again be the demise of this defense. Couple that with an offense that cannot seem to figure things out and it could be a long year. I mean does anyone REALLY think they just meant to play that bad ??

WHODEY !!!

[gregstephens]

If only Shaun Rodgers were a Bengal... We were one player away from having a great pass rush and ownership let him slip away.

Well, at least we would on the 50% of plays Rogers didn't take off...

I'm certainly disappointed about not seeing Odom, but even if he been in I have to wonder whether we would have seen anything. The Bengals have been very vanilla on D all preseason. I've seen a few generic third-down blitzes, that's about it. Aside from the more physical play by guys like White, this looks no different than a watered-down version of last year's "bend-and-eventually-break" D.

I suspect Zimmer has a wee bit more in store for us than that.

I'm thinking along the same lines, Hoosier. They're hardly sending anyone after the qb outside of their front 4, except for very rare occasions (last week, for example, when the Saints went for it on 4th down early on).

Surely that will change once the games become real.

That is exactly what I thought every game I watched last season. As the third quarters would start, and it was clear the Bengals needed to do something to switch momentum, I kept expecting a switch to the high pressure blitz game.

Never happened. I want to think like you guys on the defense, but I'll believe it when I see it, and history doesn't give me a lot of optimism right now.

[skyline]

If only Shaun Rodgers were a Bengal... We were one player away from having a great pass rush and ownership let him slip away.

Well, at least we would on the 50% of plays Rogers didn't take off...

I'm certainly disappointed about not seeing Odom, but even if he been in I have to wonder whether we would have seen anything. The Bengals have been very vanilla on D all preseason. I've seen a few generic third-down blitzes, that's about it. Aside from the more physical play by guys like White, this looks no different than a watered-down version of last year's "bend-and-eventually-break" D.

I suspect Zimmer has a wee bit more in store for us than that.

I'm thinking along the same lines, Hoosier. They're hardly sending anyone after the qb outside of their front 4, except for very rare occasions (last week, for example, when the Saints went for it on 4th down early on).

Surely that will change once the games become real.

That is exactly what I thought every game I watched last season. As the third quarters would start, and it was clear the Bengals needed to do something to switch momentum, I kept expecting a switch to the high pressure blitz game.

Never happened. I want to think like you guys on the defense, but I'll believe it when I see it, and history doesn't give me a lot of optimism right now.

Yeah, I know the feeling. I'm just trying not to judge Zimmer before he's had the chance to prove himself.

My deep deep fear is that we'll see a repeat of last season...a seemingly creative and aggressive defense against Baltimore that just vanishes off the face of the planet from week 2 on. Granted, the injuries didn't help...

[gregstephens]

If only Shaun Rodgers were a Bengal... We were one player away from having a great pass rush and ownership let him slip away.

Well, at least we would on the 50% of plays Rogers didn't take off...

I'm certainly disappointed about not seeing Odom, but even if he been in I have to wonder whether we would have seen anything. The Bengals have been very vanilla on D all preseason. I've seen a few generic third-down blitzes, that's about it. Aside from the more physical play by guys like White, this looks no different than a watered-down version of last year's "bend-and-eventually-break" D.

I suspect Zimmer has a wee bit more in store for us than that.

I'm thinking along the same lines, Hoosier. They're hardly sending anyone after the qb outside of their front 4, except for very rare occasions (last week, for example, when the Saints went for it on 4th down early on).

Surely that will change once the games become real.

That is exactly what I thought every game I watched last season. As the third quarters would start, and it was clear the Bengals needed to do something to switch momentum, I kept expecting a switch to the high pressure blitz game.

Never happened. I want to think like you guys on the defense, but I'll believe it when I see it, and history doesn't give me a lot of optimism right now.

Yeah, I know the feeling. I'm just trying not to judge Zimmer before he's had the chance to prove himself.

My deep deep fear is that we'll see a repeat of last season...a seemingly creative and aggressive defense against Baltimore that just vanishes off the face of the planet from week 2 on. Granted, the injuries didn't help...

Yeah...that's it! That's exactly where I put my finger on it. The Bengals blitzed the crap out of McNair and looked like a defensive turnaround was coming. The formula worked. Then they promptly played 15 games where they didn't follow this blue print and look what happened.

[Walrus]

If only Shaun Rodgers were a Bengal... We were one player away from having a great pass rush and ownership let him slip away.

Well, at least we would on the 50% of plays Rogers didn't take off...

I'm certainly disappointed about not seeing Odom, but even if he been in I have to wonder whether we would have seen anything. The Bengals have been very vanilla on D all preseason. I've seen a few generic third-down blitzes, that's about it. Aside from the more physical play by guys like White, this looks no different than a watered-down version of last year's "bend-and-eventually-break" D.

I suspect Zimmer has a wee bit more in store for us than that.

I'm thinking along the same lines, Hoosier. They're hardly sending anyone after the qb outside of their front 4, except for very rare occasions (last week, for example, when the Saints went for it on 4th down early on).

Surely that will change once the games become real.

That is exactly what I thought every game I watched last season. As the third quarters would start, and it was clear the Bengals needed to do something to switch momentum, I kept expecting a switch to the high pressure blitz game.

Never happened. I want to think like you guys on the defense, but I'll believe it when I see it, and history doesn't give me a lot of optimism right now.

Yeah, I know the feeling. I'm just trying not to judge Zimmer before he's had the chance to prove himself.

My deep deep fear is that we'll see a repeat of last season...a seemingly creative and aggressive defense against Baltimore that just vanishes off the face of the planet from week 2 on. Granted, the injuries didn't help...

Yeah...that's it! That's exactly where I put my finger on it. The Bengals blitzed the crap out of McNair and looked like a defensive turnaround was coming. The formula worked. Then they promptly played 15 games where they didn't follow this blue print and look what happened.

Unfortunately, I attribute that aggressive scheme to the fact we had a healthy Ahmad Brooks starting at MLB. We will not be able to do the same thing with B Johnson, D Jones and K Rivers as our starting linebackers.

Maybe Zimmer will use a safety blitz more -- that's the one blitz package that this team has had success with over the past few years (KK was -- and is -- good at that, Ndukwe picked up where KK left off last season), aside from the occasional JJ corner blitz that has also worked.

[HoTbOy]

DE's are not the only D-Line people who have to put pressure on the QB, as long as JThorton is in there we will have no pass rush...We switch D-line people year after year but never get rid of him...If we want a decent pass rush we need to start by getting rid of him, he never occupies 2 blocker so that the DE's can get 1 on 1 in certain situations...

[CJBestInAFC]

DE's are not the only D-Line people who have to put pressure on the QB, as long as JThorton is in there we will have no pass rush...We switch D-line people year after year but never get rid of him...If we want a decent pass rush we need to start by getting rid of him, he never occupies 2 blocker so that the DE's can get 1 on 1 in certain situations...

I know it is so simple. Get the double teams on the dts that frees up the DEs for one on ones. Pretty simple strategy, but hey John Thornton the great locker room guy has to be on the team. I agree once we get rid of old John the better the pass rush will be. Do the Bengals coaches not see this? It is basic football are they that stupid to realize this? Amazing, just amazing!

[GregCook]

DE's are not the only D-Line people who have to put pressure on the QB, as long as JThorton is in there we will have no pass rush...We switch D-line people year after year but never get rid of him...If we want a decent pass rush we need to start by getting rid of him, he never occupies 2 blocker so that the DE's can get 1 on 1 in certain situations...

I know it is so simple. Get the double teams on the dts that frees up the DEs for one on ones. Pretty simple strategy, but hey John Thornton the great locker room guy has to be on the team. I agree once we get rid of old John the better the pass rush will be. Do the Bengals coaches not see this? It is basic football are they that stupid to realize this? Amazing, just amazing!

I'm not ready to pull the plug based upon the pre-season results so far. Injuries are the big thing as this team goes down the drain real fast with no Chad and TJ. It also worries me that the first string defense has given up many big plays in every game. It also worries me that Carson can't find anyone open.

Other than that, I'm not worried.

[chrishcovga]

Firstly, In talking about Shaun Rogers, the plan was to sign 2 ( TWO ) defensive lineman. The Bengals were going to sign Rogers and Odom back on March 1st, and then the whole blow up of losing Rogers and the Jets bum.

- Having Rogers, Peko, Geathers, and Odom would appear to be a significant improvement.

- I do seriously think the Run Defense will be better. John Thornton is the weak link, and Peko has to stay in his lane. His problem is over pursuit, not power at the point of attack. The common tactic used against Cincy is to stretch them, and then use the cutback lanes because we don't seal and prevent the cutback. I liked Justin Smith, but damn if I didn't pull my hair out everytime he's run too far up field or pushed too far laterally and NO-ONE IS THERE FOR THE CUTBACK!

Dammit WE ARE THE ORIGINATORS OF THE ZONE BLOCKING AND STRETCH RUNNING GAMES! It started way back in the '80's with Lindy Infante and offensive line coach McNally. If We were the originators of the style, we should at least be the most experienced team to defend it!!!

The Run Defense will be better. As for the Pass rush, Third and Long had better not have John Thornton on the Field. Odom and Geathers could provide some pass rush. But Quicker guys need to be up front in the Middle.

A third down Package I would like to see would be Sims and Shirley at Tackle and Odom and Geathers at ends. Either Brooks or Henderson as a 5th Blitzer in Dime and Nickle packages.

- If we still can't get pass rush out of that lineup, then George Selvie DE, from South Florida will be my new Sig!

[Dadraftnick]

I have been screaming for years,mostly after the draft, that the Begnasl needed to draft D-linemen and O-linemen.

I also said that,drafting of so many WR's and LB's at the expense of their needs would catch up with them,it has.

As, I pointed out when you draft someone when you are full at that position you are really just drafting that guy for another team.

Look at them now after drafting so many WR's and LB's they are thin at those spots because, they drafted them when they didnt need them only to cut them or put them or the practice squad and have another team take them.

There are also plenty of free agents always floating around at those spots.

There is an old addage, all games are won and lost on the O-line and D-line,the Bengals seem to be trying to prove the addage as far as losses go.

I know, if you show me a good QB,I'll show you a good O-line.Show me a good deffense I'll show you a good D-line.

I have also ripped Jay Hays,calling him one of the worst D-line coaches in the NFL.

When Mike Brown gave the fat contract to Geathers , I said that it was a mistake ,because most of his sacks came against 2nd and 3rd string tackles.

The thing that amazed me,against New Orleans, is that not one of the Bengals D-line could beat their man the whole night.

The other thing that amazed me was our O-linemen could not pick up a blitz at all, thats something that you learn have for sure learned by high school football.

I dont know if I have ever seen a more gutless, uninspired,wussy, performance out of the Bengals.

I think maybe 4 or 5 guys were trying and everybody else was phoning it in.

A whole of changes need to be made!!!

[cincyhokie]

DE's are not the only D-Line people who have to put pressure on the QB, as long as JThorton is in there we will have no pass rush...We switch D-line people year after year but never get rid of him...If we want a decent pass rush we need to start by getting rid of him, he never occupies 2 blocker so that the DE's can get 1 on 1 in certain situations...

I know it is so simple. Get the double teams on the dts that frees up the DEs for one on ones. Pretty simple strategy, but hey John Thornton the great locker room guy has to be on the team. I agree once we get rid of old John the better the pass rush will be. Do the Bengals coaches not see this? It is basic football are they that stupid to realize this? Amazing, just amazing!

It is really sad and it's something that me and the guys that sit with me at PBS for the games have been saying since 2005...and here we are 3 years later, about to start a 4th, and JT is still here. Pathetic.

[CJBestInAFC]

I know how you feel. Every game I always focus on Thornton, atleast the games in the preseason this year, but I was doing it a lot last year, and the guy just gets dominated every snap in every game, and that is by one offensive lineman. It really is pathetic like you said. Sometimes I just scream at the TV and question why they keep running the guy out there. Can't he be a supporter from the sidelines? How about he plays waterboy for this season?

[HAPPYJAQ]

The Bengals will be fine. We haven't seen Odom yet and he should single-handedly at least improve the rush, opposite Geathers. One of them will be matched up one-on-one on most passing downs. I think the Shirley is going to prove a lot of doubters wrong. He looks extremely quick. Blackstock and Rivers should combine for at least 10 sacks this year, on passing downs. We'll be fine.

[Ickey44]

The Bengals will be fine. We haven't seen Odom yet and he should single-handedly at least improve the rush, opposite Geathers. One of them will be matched up one-on-one on most passing downs. I think the Shirley is going to prove a lot of doubters wrong. He looks extremely quick. Blackstock and Rivers should combine for at least 10 sacks this year, on passing downs. We'll be fine.

Pass the pipe, man. You've had too much.

[volcom69]

I have to say though i have liked what Blackstock has done on his pass rushing in the preseason, and what Rivers has done even though hes been out of place a couple of times but he can play. I would love to see more Shirly and less Thorton please. I cant wait till Sims makes it back i would like to see him also. As for Odom he will have to prove himself to the fans here that he can pass the rusher.