I can't believe we have another hold out

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

*shrug*

I stand firm on whatever the difference is between the offer on the table and what he gets, it will not make a significant difference to the player's finances.

On the other hand, the lost practice time WILL hurt the team.

I'm just about done with Mr Keith Rivers, thank you. The hell with him.

I guarantee if you were actually in that situation, you would not take that stance.

[TJJackson]

Nah.

First, I'd negotiate my own contract so I wouldn't have to pay a commission

Second, I'd want to be in camp so that I can become rookie sensation and perhaps a star (ala Patrick Willis) which in turn would get me endorsement deals and contract extensions that would dwarf any conceivable dollar difference that Rivers is quibbling over now

To quibble over pennies now is (to me) to say "I don't care about my team and expect to be no better than average, so give me every dollar you can now because I'll never get anyone to pay me ever again"

[HairOnFire]

To quibble over pennies now is (to me) to say "I don't care about my team and expect to be no better than average, so give me every dollar you can now because I'll never get anyone to pay me ever again"

FWIW, Lippincott has warned Bengal fans not to expect a Rivers signing for several days due to his agent demanding a contract comparable to the 5th overall pick.

[membengal]

Curnutte murmuring of "movement":

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/s....cincinnati.com

With first-round draft pick Keith Rivers geographically positioned to get to Bengals camp quickly, word this afternoon is some movement has taken place in the stalement. Rivers has missed two practices and is about to miss his third, which begins at 3 p.m.

[derekshank]

Curnutte murmuring of "movement":

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/s....cincinnati.com

With first-round draft pick Keith Rivers geographically positioned to get to Bengals camp quickly, word this afternoon is some movement has taken place in the stalement. Rivers has missed two practices and is about to miss his third, which begins at 3 p.m.

Remember when Pollack visited Cincinnati in the middle of his hold-out and went to a Reds game. We were all sure he would be in within a day or two. But he ended up flying back to Georgia. I'm not getting my hopes up until he signs the f**king deal.

[membengal]

Well, yeah. Just mentioning what little chatter there is.

[markymark69]

Two things that I have never understood about draft picks.

1. They are drafted at the end of April and for the most part, serious negotiations do not even start until mid-July, just a few days prior to camp starting. I know there are vacations and such, but there is a lot of time that appears to dead time. I know this is not a Bengal problem, but a league wide issue.

2. The rookie pool only has so much money allotted, Rivers and his agent need to realize that and work out all the outside stuff (years, escalators, etc.). Which goes back to the first thought, if you start on this stuff sooner, there would time to work all the silly stuff out.

[ArmyBengal]

With it being reported that the Saints have come to an agreement with Ellis and expect him in camp tomorrow, it can't be much longer for Rivers to get this done and get in camp. With him holding out, I'm glad we had the first Monday Night game and couldn't start camp until after everyone else. Hell, Ellis has already missed a weeks worth of camp.

WHODEY !!!

[kentjett]

Ellis just signed, Rivers should be signed anytime now. We need him in ASAP.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Nah.

First, I'd negotiate my own contract so I wouldn't have to pay a commission

Second, I'd want to be in camp so that I can become rookie sensation and perhaps a star (ala Patrick Willis) which in turn would get me endorsement deals and contract extensions that would dwarf any conceivable dollar difference that Rivers is quibbling over now

To quibble over pennies now is (to me) to say "I don't care about my team and expect to be no better than average, so give me every dollar you can now because I'll never get anyone to pay me ever again"

Even the most promising guy is one tackle away from never playing again.

I mean, I agree in principle - I would hire an agent known for getting picks into camp and being aggressive. And you are taking a big Brady Quinn risk by not being there. So I would definitely not pick an agent who's one of those candyasses who waits until all the other deals are done and relies on the work of other agents to do his job. I'd hire a guy who's willing to roll the dice.

But at the same time, when you're negotiating with a team who has a holdout situation basically every year, you still have to take care of yourself.

[TJJackson]

Nah.

If they are offering a 5 mil signing bonus and I think I can eke out 50K more by holding out a week and lose a week of camp, the 50K is simply not worth it.....not to me, not to my career development

In any case, we've both stated our points and we're not gonna agree....which is fine....probably into dead-horse-beating time at this point tho

[walzav29]

I don't know whats worse. The fact that we are always dependent on rookies, or the fact we can't ever get them in on time.

[Tee]

And then there were two...

GEORGETOWN, Ky. -- Keith Rivers is one of two first-round draft picks left to sign as his college teammate, Sedrick Ellis, signed with the Saints today.

According to ESPN, Ellis signed a five-year deal with the Saints. The report says it could max out at $49 million and guaranteed $19.5 million.

The only other draft pick unsigned is the guy picked just ahead of Rivers, Jacksonville's Derrick Harvey.

The player picked after Rivers, the Patriots' Jerod Mayo signed a five-year deal worth $18.9 million and $13.8 million. The 11th pick, Buffalo's Leodis McKelvin signed a five-year deal worth $19.4 million and $12.6 guaranteed.

There's a pretty big jump from $49/19.5 mil and $18.9/13.8 and that's probably what both the Jaguars and Bengals are talking about to their respective picks. It will be interesting to see which player signs first.

[TippCityRick]

This from the ESPN article . . .

According to a source, the Ellis deal could be worth as little as $32 million or $33.5 million, but if he plays up to the expectations of the seventh pick in a draft, Ellis could make $49 million. A source said the contract guarantees $19.5 million.

So the difference really is $33.5/19.5 down to $18.9/13.8 with Harvey at 8 and Rivers at 9. The slot should tighten up now. However my guess is that the Bengals wait for Harvey to sign first so that they bleed the last nickel they can from Rivers.

Come on guys and get the terms worked out!! Rivers is needed to make this defense better than it was last year and Rivers needs to be in camp to learn the ropes of the NFL so that his rookie season isn't wasted! Why does it seem that I have the same rant year after year . . .

[Defender]

I firmly believe that Harvey will get signed, and it will still take a couple days after that to get Rivers in camp.

[kingwilly]

if we get a newsflash that Rivers is back in LA, then we should be prepared to move on for the first part of the season without him. If I am Zimmer, I am already moving past his absence.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

In any case, we've both stated our points and we're not gonna agree....which is fine....probably into dead-horse-beating time at this point tho

So? Horse meat's yummy. Keep 'er rolling.

[HoosierCat]

This from the ESPN article . . .

According to a source, the Ellis deal could be worth as little as $32 million or $33.5 million, but if he plays up to the expectations of the seventh pick in a draft, Ellis could make $49 million. A source said the contract guarantees $19.5 million.

So the difference really is $33.5/19.5 down to $18.9/13.8 with Harvey at 8 and Rivers at 9.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. You don't get to just toss out $15.5 million just because the goals needed to achieve it are difficult. But you are right that the parameters of a Rivers contract are working themselves out -- and not, I'm sure, the way that the Bengals FO hoped they would. The guaranteed money should be around $15 million. That's easy. Total "real" money -- that bonus plus salary and reasonably achievable incentives and escalators, looks to me to be circa $27 million. Then there's the "funny money," which would be some number like $15 million, which boosts the value of the whole deal on paper to around $42 million.

I can see that being a problem since the Bengals always hate shoveling fake money into deals on general principles.

[Orange and black fanatic]

All I know is the more practice he misses the less valuable he is. If he holds out much longer, the Bengals will get almost nothing out of him this year, so why would they increase their offer? Personnally, I would lower it every day he misses.

Rivers is the one hurting more if no deal is done. He would have to re-enter the draft with no money and having wasted a year of his productive football years.

Stupid rookie contract negotiations. How good does the NBA system look now?

[redsbengalsbucks]

All I know is the more practice he misses the less valuable he is. If he holds out much longer, the Bengals will get almost nothing out of him this year, so why would they increase their offer? Personnally, I would lower it every day he misses.

Rivers is the one hurting more if no deal is done. He would have to re-enter the draft with no money and having wasted a year of his productive football years.

Stupid rookie contract negotiations. How good does the NBA system look now?

I would have to say if I were in Rivers position, I would hold out also. The thing about it is that I would also be at camp watching the films and the defense from the sidelines as much as possible. I wouldnt put one foot in dangers way, but I would be studying the playbook and any actions that the sub in my place was making during practices. During any interview I would make damn well sure that the fans knew I was readying myself as much as possible and when the FO finally agrees to the terms of a contract that I would be on the feild ASAP. PR and loyalty seems like it would go along way in getting some extra coin from even the Bengals FO.

[TJJackson]

If he holds out much longer, the Bengals will get almost nothing out of him this year, so why would they increase their offer? Personnally, I would lower it every day he misses.

That's what I would do as well.

His rookie season is now all but a complete loss in the making

No sense paying more cash for less value

[TippCityRick]

QUOTE(TippCityRick @ Jul 30 2008, 01:05 PM)

This from the ESPN article . . .

QUOTE

According to a source, the Ellis deal could be worth as little as $32 million or $33.5 million, but if he plays up to the expectations of the seventh pick in a draft, Ellis could make $49 million. A source said the contract guarantees $19.5 million.

So the difference really is $33.5/19.5 down to $18.9/13.8 with Harvey at 8 and Rivers at 9.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. You don't get to just toss out $15.5 million just because the goals needed to achieve it are difficult. But you are right that the parameters of a Rivers contract are working themselves out -- and not, I'm sure, the way that the Bengals FO hoped they would. The guaranteed money should be around $15 million. That's easy. Total "real" money -- that bonus plus salary and reasonably achievable incentives and escalators, looks to me to be circa $27 million. Then there's the "funny money," which would be some number like $15 million, which boosts the value of the whole deal on paper to around $42 million.

I can see that being a problem since the Bengals always hate shoveling fake money into deals on general principles.

Hoosier, I'm fully aware that that isn't how it works . . . been around the block a few times. I was just pointing out the difference in "real" money. As I stated before, you don't want to be picking and paying in a slot next to the Patriots and this points out why. They don't include "funny" money in their contracts and still get their guys in on time. Everyone was pointing out the difference of $30m between Ellis and Mayo and I just thought I'd try to find corresponding apples to examine.

[Bobcat Bengal]

If he's not in camp within the week, you can probably cross him off as having an impact in 2008

I know I will

When a player finds it more important to claw an extra 50 or 100 thou away from his new employer when he's already making millions, rather than come in and HELP his team win games, I pretty much wash my hands of them. Players like this are part of the problem, not the solution.

Ah well.

I present to you, MrTJJackson, exhibit A:

2005 1st-round draft pick David Pollack, anyone?

How'd that turn out?

I bet he's real, REAL glad he got the best deal he could.....

[TJJackson]

If he's not in camp within the week, you can probably cross him off as having an impact in 2008

I know I will

When a player finds it more important to claw an extra 50 or 100 thou away from his new employer when he's already making millions, rather than come in and HELP his team win games, I pretty much wash my hands of them. Players like this are part of the problem, not the solution.

Ah well.

I present to you, MrTJJackson, exhibit A:

2005 1st-round draft pick David Pollack, anyone?

How'd that turn out?

I bet he's real, REAL glad he got the best deal he could.....

I was the biggest Pollack supporter right up to the day camp opened. I wrote a very long impassioned post on why he'd be the best pick for us.

When he did not sign by the opening of camp, he was pretty much dead to me...I knew he'd be useless, and he was

Why pay anyone to be useless?

From the Pollack personal side -- I doubt Pollack is significantly better off financially for holding out. 100 grand more would mean a lot to you and I, but not to a fellow already picking up a multi million dollar bonus. In the meantime, the fact that he made essentially no impact in 2005 hurt us despite the 11-5 record.

If I am David Pollack, I have spent a lot of time mulling over and over "what might have been". I traded a the chance to be the DROY and a star for a lousy hundred grand (or whatever). I'm already a millionaire many times over (and he would have been so, holdout or no holdout) with all the money I could ever need in a lifetime from one contract (holdout or no holdout, wouldn't I value the loss of the football glory (keep in mind how much Pollack loves football) more than the extra cash?

So....I disagree with you.....

[HairOnFire]

From the Pollack personal side -- I doubt Pollack is significantly better off financially for holding out. 100 grand more would mean a lot to you and I, but not to a fellow already picking up a multi million dollar bonus. In the meantime, the fact that he made essentially no impact in 2005 hurt us despite the 11-5 record.

It works both ways, right? The Pollock signing, like so many others, was held up by the Bengals hardline stance in regards to incentive triggers. And critics can say whatever they wish but there are now numerous sad examples (Akili, Perry, Pollack) demonstrating the wisdom of those actions. Each of those players banked millions of dollars, an outcome that is entirelly unavoidable, but under different circumstances each would have BUSTED having pocket millions more if the Bengals hadn't held firm on so-called non-cake incentive triggers.