Does Marvin have a mental illness?

[HairOnFire]

Not so dumb that I continue to whine about things like using a 7th round pick (!!) on a WR as "proof" the Bengals aren't dedicated to the defense.

Two quick points. First, I haven't mentioned the 7th round.....so the above response is just the latest example of you adding yet another worthless diversion to the thread. It's becoming quite a list.

Second, you seem to have conveniently forgotten the picks on WR's made in rounds two and three, and the day two TE as well. So again, how dumb are you?

Who didn't they get that they could have? Some seventh-round scrub?

Are you really going to pretend a 7th round pick would offer nothing of value to this defense? Well, how would you explain last years selection of Ndukwe? Besides, once you pull your head out of your ass you'll realize we're actually talking about the combined value of 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th round picks. And that's just from the last draft.

[BengalszoneBilly]

I have to say this has rapidly become one of the most repetitive threads I've ever read here. "I said this, against you said that." Sorry, but it has passed the stage of stale, and is rapidly passing into moldy.

I, and probably all members here respect two of our most very insightful, intelligent, and senior members here...Hoosier and Hair. You guys are both EXCELLENT debaters. Far better than I could ever aspire to be, but I must ask what signals the end? Is there even one, because all things must pass.

This thread/argument included.

[HairOnFire]

I have to say this has rapidly become one of the most repetitive threads I've ever read here. "I said this, against you said that."

Any thread involving Hoosier is bound to be repetitive. Worse, I think he'd need a dictionary to know what repetitive means.

Sorry, but it has passed the stage of stale, and is rapidly passing into moldy.

Actually, it's not moldy or stale. You might even call it fresh. After all, a quick check of the dates reveals it was only three days after you popped off that the Bengals announced they were signing yet another WR. (Chris Henry no less.)

Oh, and they're talking about trading for another WR, right?

So the topic isn't moldy or stale, is it?

You guys are both EXCELLENT debaters. Far better than I could ever aspire to be, but I must ask what signals the end?

What end do you seek? An end to the rancor or an end to the endless parade of WR's?

[gregstephens]

I have to say this has rapidly become one of the most repetitive threads I've ever read here. "I said this, against you said that."

Any thread involving Hoosier is bound to be repetitive. Worse, I think he'd need a dictionary to know what repetitive means.

Sorry, but it has passed the stage of stale, and is rapidly passing into moldy.

Actually, it's not moldy or stale. You might even call it fresh. After all, a quick check of the dates reveals it was only three days after you popped off that the Bengals announced they were signing yet another WR. (Chris Henry no less.)

Oh, and they're talking about trading for another WR, right?

So the topic isn't moldy or stale, is it?

You guys are both EXCELLENT debaters. Far better than I could ever aspire to be, but I must ask what signals the end?

What end do you seek? An end to the rancor or an end to the endless parade of WR's?

I think the end Billy was seeking was the end to this now-pointless pissing match between you and Hoosier which, in case you haven't actually been paying attention to this thread, is apparently no longer of interest to anyone but you two.

Of course, I merely speculate as to that answer, not even coming close to claiming to speak for the next President of these United States, our own distinguished elder statesman, Bengalszone Billy.

[HairOnFire]

I think the end Billy was seeking was the end to this now-pointless pissing match between you and Hoosier which, in case you haven't actually been paying attention to this thread, is apparently no longer of interest to anyone but you two.

I was never interested in a pissing match with Hoosier. But some things are simply unavoidable...especially when Hoosier seemed so adamant about arguing that water wasn't wet and drafting 3 wideouts in a single draft doesn't fit the definition of a luxury.

As for there being no interest in one of the topics discussed in this thread, well would you care to take a guess about how many threads devoted to WR's have been started in the two weeks since Billy pleaded for an end to all hostilities?

It's ten. Ten new threads devoted to something you claim isn't of interest to anyone. And conversations about WR's are also prominent in numerous other threads.

Last, in the primary Chris Henry thread numerous posters have described the signing as ridiculous, unjustifiable, and my personal favorite...a panic move. And that's exactly what it is. But here's the rub. Because while it may have been an unjustifiable panic move....it actually fit's this teams profile perfectly.

[HoosierCat]

I was never interested in a pissing match with Hoosier. But some things are simply unavoidable...especially when Hoosier seemed so adamant about arguing that water wasn't wet and drafting 3 wideouts in a single draft doesn't fit the definition of a luxury.

Oh, they've been quite the "luxury," haven't they? Seriously, have you been paying any attention lately? What have people like me and mem been saying for months? That our WR corps was aging and becoming more injury prone and we needed to reload, right? Well, it appears that far from drafting "luxuries," the Bengals have actually waited too long. Now, both those Pro Bowl WRs you love to point to are hurt. One good hit from Ray-Ray and Chad could be lost for the year. And if it wasn't for that "luxury" Ben Utecht, we practically wouldn't have a passing game at all.

[HairOnFire]

What have people like me and mem been saying for months?

Amongst other things, you've claimed many of the WR moves were made in an effort to shore up the #3 WR role that Chis Henry vacated. And of course the Bengals just filled that role by signing....Chris Henry.

Oh, and how did you react to that little bit of news? Did you approve of the move? Did you think it was essential? Should I go and gather your quotes?

But by all means, scroll back deeply into the archives and find me the post where either you or Mem championed the idea of adding 5 new pass catchers in the draft and FA.

I'll wait right here.

[HoosierCat]

Do your own research. While you're at it, you might want to go back and watch a few recent games. Yeah, our offense is just chock full of luxuries. And with Rudi and Willie out today so far, it's just getting more luxurious by the minute, ain't it?

[HairOnFire]

Well, it appears that far from drafting "luxuries," the Bengals have actually waited too long. Now, both those Pro Bowl WRs you love to point to are hurt.

And now that those players are hurt the replacements the Bengals drafted are going to step into those roles, right? Well no, they almost certainly aren't. Granted, Simpson will get a few snaps but that was going to happen regardless. As for Caldwell and Urrutia and the new TE whose name I haven't bothered learning, they're likely to get almost as many snaps as you do.

One good hit from Ray-Ray and Chad could be lost for the year.

And I'm almost certain if that happens Reverend Ray will find a lovely Christmas gift from a secret Santa under his tree.

And if it wasn't for that "luxury" Ben Utecht, we practically wouldn't have a passing game at all.

Can you count above the number one? Because quite frankly I don't recall anyone suggesting the Bengals offense couldn't use a new weapon. But that's not what we're talking about, is it? No, we're talking about the addition of five new pass catchers....all of which you've claimed are absolutely essential.

[chrishcovga]

ARE THE BENGALS FRICKIN STUPID !!!!!!??????

Just when I thought this team couldn't get any worse, They've turned over the offense to Mr. Glass !!

Why not trade Palmer for a 5th round pick and name JEFF ROWE as the STARTER !!!

[kingwilly]

ARE THE BENGALS FRICKIN STUPID !!!!!!??????

Just when I thought this team couldn't get any worse, They've turned over the offense to Mr. Glass !!

Why not trade Palmer for a 5th round pick and name JEFF ROWE as the STARTER !!!

I don't see it that way at all.

They've decided to platoon at RB and have the skilled athletes to pull it off. At this point, Rudi is the least talented, highest paid athlete in the backfield. This is as much about talent as it is cap space.

Now, what would be stupid is not bolstering the WR spot. Or bolstering the CB's.

With Rudi and Willie cut, they can address TJ and, wait for it, wait for it, CJ.

[HoosierCat]

Well, it appears that far from drafting "luxuries," the Bengals have actually waited too long. Now, both those Pro Bowl WRs you love to point to are hurt.

And now that those players are hurt the replacements the Bengals drafted are going to step into those roles, right? Well no, they almost certainly aren't.

Exactly my point. It generally takes a year for college WRs to acclimate to the NFL -- if they ever do. It's the rare wideout who comes in makes an immediate impact their rookie year. So it makes sense to draft them a bit before you actually need them, right? And it appears the Bengals may have waited too long. When there's a very real chance of Glenn Holt and Antonio Chatman being your top two guys, that ain't a luxury, that's a disaster.

[HairOnFire]

Do your own research. While you're at it, you might want to go back and watch a few recent games. Yeah, our offense is just chock full of luxuries. And with Rudi and Willie out today so far, it's just getting more luxurious by the minute, ain't it?

Reading through your posts is many things, but one thing it will never be confused with is doing research.

As for watching the games, I've seen 'em all and the first thing that comes to mind is how completely inept the Bengals offense has looked despite all of the attention paid to it. So go ahead and argue that the Bengals aren't getting what they've paid for. I won't stop you.

As for Rudi and Willie, their so-called replacements have already been on this teams roster for YEARS.

[chrishcovga]

ARE THE BENGALS FRICKIN STUPID !!!!!!??????

Just when I thought this team couldn't get any worse, They've turned over the offense to Mr. Glass !!

Why not trade Palmer for a 5th round pick and name JEFF ROWE as the STARTER !!!

I don't see it that way at all.

They've decided to platoon at RB and have the skilled athletes to pull it off. At this point, Rudi is the least talented, highest paid athlete in the backfield. This is as much about talent as it is cap space.

Now, what would be stupid is not bolstering the WR spot. Or bolstering the CB's.

With Rudi and Willie cut, they can address TJ and, wait for it, wait for it, CJ.

If you believe that.... I've got this wonderful OCEAN FRONT PROPERTY in OKLAHOMA that I'd like to sell you...

- Tell you what, Just as a measure of Good faith.... I just got in my hands this BRIDGE in Brooklyn that I can sell you For the " LOW-LOW "

There are lots of ill - affects from drinking " Kool-aid " .... And you my man, have had too much!!

Know when to say When!

[kingwilly]

You cannot seriously believe that Rudi has better skills than CP, KW, or DDD. Sure, they all have differing strengths but Rudi was the LEAST skilled of the bunch and the MOST expensive. Perry may end up hurt at any moment but they could easily insert KW there and have little to no drop-off.

Rudi is just not the same player he was.

[HoosierCat]

As for Rudi and Willie, their so-called replacements have already been on this teams roster for YEARS.

Uh-huh, and one was a developmental project who needed those years, while the other was an injury bust. Again, my point: you can't count on guys to come in and perform at a high level right away. At WR, give both Chad and TJ's age, plus their contract situations, we may have waited too long. And since we don't have adequate replacements for them on the roster, our top 10 offense looks poised for a big fall.

[HairOnFire]

Exactly my point. It generally takes a year for college WRs to acclimate to the NFL -- if they ever do. It's the rare wideout who comes in makes an immediate impact their rookie year. So it makes sense to draft them a bit before you actually need them, right?

Well, how long does it take to develope defensive players? Or are you suggesting they come ready to play right out of the box?

Regardless, how long do you imagine we'll have to wait for Simpson? Or Caldwell? Or Urritia? Or the TE whose name I haven't bothered learning? 2009? 2010? 2011?

The reason I'm asking is due to our previous conversation where I said something about how this team was being built for 2009 and you and others claimed it had as good a shot at going to playoffs this season as any other team in the division.

So who amongst you still feels that way?

[HoosierCat]

The reason I'm asking is due to our previous conversation where I said something about how this team was being built for 2009 and you and others claimed it had as good a shot at going to playoffs this season as any other team in the division.

So who amongst you still feels that way?

As bad as the Bengals are looking, they could still make the postseason, because the whole division stinks. Pitt doesn't have an o-line and at last report was trying to trade Max Starks, who they franchised earlier this year. Baltimore lost Boller, Smith's sick and so it's looking like Flacco will go, at least to start the season. Cleveland's secondary is so bad they are still trading away draft picks for Miami scrubs. I wouldn't be surprised if this year's AFCN fulfilled the fears voiced when they expanded the playoffs and sent a team with a losing record to the playoffs.

[chrishcovga]

You cannot seriously believe that Rudi has better skills than CP, KW, or DDD. Sure, they all have differing strengths but Rudi was the LEAST skilled of the bunch and the MOST expensive. Perry may end up hurt at any moment but they could easily insert KW there and have little to no drop-off.

Rudi is just not the same player he was.

You can't be serious ?? You're joking with me right ?? I must owe you money or something and that's why you continue to torment my soul with this relentless mundane lunacy??

Chris Perry's skills = 2 trips to Injured reserve! And one trip to a 6 game Pup List ??? - I mean he's so GOOD, that he doesn't even have to be ON-THE-FIELD!! - He's talented, but he can't stay healthy, and did you ever think that he's giving all this effort this year, because he's in the last year of his rookie contract ???

Kenny Watson = a very solid back. - I won't argue with you that he has better vision than Rudi. I think that we'll both agree that if he had the ABILITY to be a franchise back, he would. But he's a career backup guy, but every team needs a Watson,Kevin Faulk type player.

DeDe Dorsey, - Other than being pretty fast. There's no way he's anything other than a special teamer. Not even sure if he's a really small runningback, or a slot wide reciever that can't catch.

James J. - I didn't see him in the preseason. I haven't even watched the replay of the Colts game. But he's not particularly a big back either. - Let's see the kid play!!

Let us say a Prayer for our dear departed Rudi.... Bow Heads... Right Hands up....

Rudi, Rudi, Rudi

[HairOnFire]

Again, my point: you can't count on guys to come in and perform at a high level right away.

Actually, that's one of my favorite points as well. Where we differ is how we'd like to see assets used, and how much attention can be wisely used on a single position. As for wideout, I'm dead certain we wouldn't be arguing right now if the Bengals would have drafted Simpson and called it a day. And I guess you can even throw Ben Utect into the mix and I wouldn't have offered a peep of complaint. But I guess I start to grind in my chair a little bit when the needle hits three, and I grouse a little more when it reaches four, and quite frankly I start looking for people to punch in the throat when the needle lands on five. Worse, try imagining how I feel knowing that few of the newbies will play meaningful roles this season even when the passing game is rocked by multiple injuries.

[HoosierCat]

Again, my point: you can't count on guys to come in and perform at a high level right away.

Actually, that's one of my favorite points as well. Where we differ is how we'd like to see assets used, and how much attention can be wisely used on a single position. As for wideout, I'm dead certain we wouldn't be arguing right now if the Bengals would have drafted Simpson and called it a day. And I guess you can even throw Ben Utect into the mix and I wouldn't have offered a peep of complaint. But I guess I start to grind in my chair a little bit when the needle hits three, and I grouse a little more when it reaches four, and quite frankly I start looking for people to punch in the throat when the needle lands on five. Worse, try imagining how I feel knowing that few of the newbies will play meaningful roles this season even when the passing game is rocked by multiple injuries.

I hear ya. Hell, I would have been a lot happier with this year's draft if "Jerome Simpson" had been "Trevor Laws" instead. But this is what happens when you go years without spending significant resources on a position. In the previous four drafts, the Bengals spent just one high pick on a wideout, a 3rd on Chris Henry. Other than that, all the receiver coaches got to work with was a few late-round fliers, some UDFAs and a single second-tier FA, Chatman. No one emerged -- not surprising, since TJ's and Colston's are the exception, not the rule -- and so the Bengals found themselves five years down the road with two aging, increasingly injury-prone and very expensive WRs...and jack divided by sh*t behind them.

[HairOnFire]

Again, my point: you can't count on guys to come in and perform at a high level right away.

Actually, that's one of my favorite points as well. Where we differ is how we'd like to see assets used, and how much attention can be wisely used on a single position. As for wideout, I'm dead certain we wouldn't be arguing right now if the Bengals would have drafted Simpson and called it a day. And I guess you can even throw Ben Utect into the mix and I wouldn't have offered a peep of complaint. But I guess I start to grind in my chair a little bit when the needle hits three, and I grouse a little more when it reaches four, and quite frankly I start looking for people to punch in the throat when the needle lands on five. Worse, try imagining how I feel knowing that few of the newbies will play meaningful roles this season even when the passing game is rocked by multiple injuries.

I hear ya.

So why have we been arguing for two months?

Hell, I would have been a lot happier with this year's draft if "Jerome Simpson" had been "Trevor Laws" instead.

I liked Laws but I'm not married to any draft prospect. So tell me I can't have the guy I want and I'll make do just fine if instead you draft something else I need. But while there has always been some case that can be made for needing new offensive weapons I've simply been swamped by the weight of numbers.

In the previous four drafts, the Bengals spent just one high pick on a wideout, a 3rd on Chris Henry. Other than that, all the receiver coaches got to work with was a few late-round fliers, some UDFAs and a single second-tier FA, Chatman. No one emerged -- not surprising....

It's not suprising precisely because the Bengals refuse to accept the level of production from the #3 WR that most NFL teams would happily settle for. In fact, think of all of the championship teams from recent years who didn't even have a pair of top starters at WR....let alone going three deep. Or how about a Charger team that recently won 15 games using a pair of wideouts their own fans couldn't name? Instead, the Bengals demand every complimentary offensive skill position be filled by a player who brings to the table the type of physical skills that a Chris Henry or a Jerome Simpson possess. And those types of big play demands dictate you pass over the type of readily available veteran talent that could have been had fairly cheaply.

[HoosierCat]

So why have we been arguing for two months?

Because I don't buy that you can look at a single draft in isolation and determine whether a team is or isn't dedicated to building one side of the ball or the other. In any given year, circumstances can arise that force you off your overall game plan, which is what happened to the Bengals this year. The question is, what have they been doing in aggregate? And any fair reading of the Bengals' drafts since 2004 will show that they have been strongly dedicated to building the D. They've just failed miserably at it.

But while there has always been some case that can be made for needing new offensive weapons I've simply been swamped by the weight of numbers.

I guess it doesn't bug me as much since a couple of your numbers are Matt Sherry (the guy you can't remember) and Mario Urrutia, a pair of day 2 fliers whose replacement by a couple of day 2 defensive fliers would almost certainly not produced any difference to the roster rolled out today.

It's not suprising precisely because the Bengals refuse to accept the level of production from the #3 WR that most NFL teams would happily settle for. In fact, think of all of the championship teams from recent years who didn't even have a pair of top starters at WR....let alone going three deep. Or how about a Charger team that recently won 15 games using a pair of wideouts their own fans couldn't name? Instead, the Bengals demand every complimentary offensive skill position be filled by a player who brings to the table the type of physical skills that a Chris Henry or a Jerome Simpson possess. And those types of big play demands dictate you pass over the type of readily available veteran talent that could have been had fairly cheaply.

Well, they have tried to go the readily available veteran route, too -- Antonio Chatman, anyone? -- but keep tripping over injuries. Marcus Maxwell is just the latest example.