A Line In The Sand Has Been Drawn

[BengalszoneBilly]

I have to also note that you are a Mike Brown loving toady...

I firmly believe that Mike Brown is an uber conservative douchebag who could have, and probably should have, moved his team from Cincinnati when he had the chance. Sadly, he showed too much loyalty to a fanbase and city that has done nothing but ridicule him for most of his life, and as a result of his decision to stay absolutely everyone involved are now miserable douchebags.

Oh so true. I'll check with the Administrator B24 and will advise all of the impending name change of this site to "DouchebagZone".

BTW, as soon as I am able, my member name will change to "Douchebag Billy".

[ArmyBengal]

"Armydouchebag" ?? I don't think I can roll like that Billy !!!

Anyway, I'm leaning more with each passing week that Hair's argument is more relevant. Chad, while gifted beyond belief, has got to find a way to control just how immature he is. I want to see a professional out there on the field. I can remember him talking about when he and Carson went to Indy to watch Manning and Harrison throw and catch. To bad he hasn't picked up on the professional demeanor of Harrison. Once again, I think Chad is taking himself out of games mentally and the excuse of "he just wants to win" is getting old...

WHODEY !!!

[BengalszoneBilly]

"Armydouchebag" ?? I don't think I can roll like that Billy !!!

Of course not. No one would. I was just making fun of Hair's over the top assessment of the fan base here.

[bengalsfansince68]

With all due respect, BBTB,

Chad wants us all to believe that he is a superstar player...

A superstar player would have run his route to the stick or beyond...

If a superstar player had made the mistake of running his route 3 yards short, a superstar player would have turned it upfield and fought his ass off to get the first down...

Chad wandered out of bounds and handed the ball over to the stealers.

How can you defend that, man?

I don't see how you can, unless you find it to be acceptable to quit with 2 minutes left in the game.

[bengalsfansince68]

I don't think Chad didn't know the down or situation, I just don't think he could've made the 1st with 2 db's in front of him if he sprouted wings. He didn't even really step out of bounds, he couldn't have kept in bounds no matter what at that point becuase the throw drew him out.

Again, with all due respect,

This quote is just patently false! No sir, the throw did not draw him out. Chad caught the ball well inside the line and wandered backward two or three steps to get out when he absolutely could have turned it upfield and at least made an effort. Maybe he would not have made it, but he damn well could have, and should have, tried.

Either Chad did not know the down and distance or he just flat out quit. I don't care which it was, Chad should be ahamed of that play forever.

After further review:

Even if his mind is off in another place where he can't keep track of the down and distance...

He still should have turned it upfield!!! I was absolutey stunned when Chad just wandered out of play and turned the damed ball over to them.

ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE!!!

[BengalByTheBay]

With all due respect, BBTB,

Chad wants us all to believe that he is a superstar player...

A superstar player would have run his route to the stick or beyond...

If a superstar player had made the mistake of running his route 3 yards short, a superstar player would have turned it upfield and fought his ass off to get the first down...

Chad wandered out of bounds and handed the ball over to the stealers.

How can you defend that, man?

I don't see how you can, unless you find it to be acceptable to quit with 2 minutes left in the game.

Okay - then Carson Palmer is a superstar player, right? A superstar player would not have missed his receivers nearly the entire game and squandered every scoring opportunity resulting from turnovers gained by the defense.

No- neither one of those is fair. Players have bad games sometimes. Carson had a horrible game and Chad basically made one bad play. To draw a "line in the sand" over one bad play and ignore the rest of the game lacks perspective.

[Jet23]

With all due respect, BBTB,

Chad wants us all to believe that he is a superstar player...

A superstar player would have run his route to the stick or beyond...

If a superstar player had made the mistake of running his route 3 yards short, a superstar player would have turned it upfield and fought his ass off to get the first down...

Chad wandered out of bounds and handed the ball over to the stealers.

How can you defend that, man?

I don't see how you can, unless you find it to be acceptable to quit with 2 minutes left in the game.

Okay - then Carson Palmer is a superstar player, right? A superstar player would not have missed his receivers nearly the entire game and squandered every scoring opportunity resulting from turnovers gained by the defense.

No- neither one of those is fair. Players have bad games sometimes. Carson had a horrible game and Chad basically made one bad play. To draw a "line in the sand" over one bad play and ignore the rest of the game lacks perspective.

IMHO both players have proven the following:

1) They are exceptional Players at times

2) The jury is still out whether either one can deliver in the clutch

As much as I loathe Ward and Ben, they seem to be at their best in crunch time. Just one time, I would like somebody to step up when it matters. Heck, even their long snapper chokes when the game is on the line.

[BengalByTheBay]

As much as I loathe Ward and Ben, they seem to be at their best in crunch time. Just one time, I would like somebody to step up when it matters. Heck, even their long snapper chokes when the game is on the line.

Frustratingly true. In this respect only, there's at least the hint of an argument that Palmer has actually regressed the last two seasons. And I'm a huge CP fan, but it doesn't change what I see.

[Jet23]

As much as I loathe Ward and Ben, they seem to be at their best in crunch time. Just one time, I would like somebody to step up when it matters. Heck, even their long snapper chokes when the game is on the line.

Frustratingly true. In this respect only, there's at least the hint of an argument that Palmer has actually regressed the last two seasons. And I'm a huge CP fan, but it doesn't change what I see.

Look at it this way. It took him four years to be Bengalized. That's not bad...

[Kirkendall]

What I want to know - why, all of a sudden, can Carson not hit a bear in the ass from 10 feet? He was awful last night. 4 takeaways plus an actual good game by the D and the offense gets 7 points on its own? WTF?

Ding. Carson was terrible last night. A good deal of it had to so with the usual suspects: the o-line (which had to deal with dings to Bobbie and Bluto) and the lack of a consistent run game.

I'll go you one better. I think Carson's still feeling the effects of that horrible game he had against AZ. He was obviously afraid of being picked off again and threw high constantly to avoid a possible INT.

Only problem was, our guys couldn't catch his high passes either...

Well, when Ben earlier in the game had to make deeper throws, his passes were WAY off. Very high. Once the Steelers had the lead, they could do the more ding and dunk stuff. And yes, I do think that comparison is applicable here... especially when Palmer had to make big passes with a slippery football and turf that gave way on receivers.

I'm not excusing Palmer. But you have to acknowledge that Ben had the same issues earlier in the game.

[Kirkendall]

I firmly believe that Mike Brown is an uber conservative douchebag who could have, and probably should have, moved his team from Cincinnati when he had the chance.

f**k that.

[bengalsfansince68]

Okay - then Carson Palmer is a superstar player, right? A superstar player would not have missed his receivers nearly the entire game and squandered every scoring opportunity resulting from turnovers gained by the defense.

No- neither one of those is fair. Players have bad games sometimes. Carson had a horrible game and Chad basically made one bad play. To draw a "line in the sand" over one bad play and ignore the rest of the game lacks perspective.

Lack of perspective is rampant on this and other boards. When one cannot defend his position, it is human nature to throw some mud in other directions in an attempt to deflect attention from the point that cannot be defended. Carson is the last of the problems with this offense. As I have said in previous posts, the most relevant problem is the complete lack of effort to establish a rush game. The stealers were completely unconcerned with the run, which allows their defense to crawl up the receiver's asses both front and back. When you run the ball, the linebackers and safeties are forced to respect it and cannot flood the passing lanes as the stealers obviously did. The problem with our offense, at its core, is Bratkowski. He is the most predictable OC I have ever seen. His minimal attempts to run the football are ass backwards. Pass on first and run on second is backwards. If you run on first down and pick up four yards, you run again. If you get four more yards you are at 3rd and 2, a much more manageble situation than you get by doing it backwards, usually 3rd and 8 or worse. More importantly the D has to account for the run in those situations of third and short and can generally disregard the run on 3rd and 8.

Carson did not play well but what can you expect when the balance of this offense is so completely lacking as to force Carson to throw into double coverage 3/4 of the time. If the DC on the other sideline is perceptive enough to realize that we are going to pass 75% of the time, what do you think he will do?

Throwing mud at Carson to defend the indefensibly poor play that Chad made on fourth down is what lacks perspective, in my mind.

[BengalByTheBay]

Okay - then Carson Palmer is a superstar player, right? A superstar player would not have missed his receivers nearly the entire game and squandered every scoring opportunity resulting from turnovers gained by the defense.

No- neither one of those is fair. Players have bad games sometimes. Carson had a horrible game and Chad basically made one bad play. To draw a "line in the sand" over one bad play and ignore the rest of the game lacks perspective.

Lack of perspective is rampant on this and other boards. When one cannot defend his position, it is human nature to throw some mud in other directions in an attempt to deflect attention from the point that cannot be defended. Carson is the last of the problems with this offense. As I have said in previous posts, the most relevant problem is the complete lack of effort to establish a rush game. The stealers were completely unconcerned with the run, which allows their defense to crawl up the receiver's asses both front and back. When you run the ball, the linebackers and safeties are forced to respect it and cannot flood the passing lanes as the stealers obviously did. The problem with our offense, at its core, is Bratkowski. He is the most predictable OC I have ever seen. His minimal attempts to run the football are ass backwards. Pass on first and run on second is backwards. If you run on first down and pick up four yards, you run again. If you get four more yards you are at 3rd and 2, a much more manageble situation than you get by doing it backwards, usually 3rd and 8 or worse. More importantly the D has to account for the run in those situations of third and short and can generally disregard the run on 3rd and 8.

Carson did not play well but what can you expect when the balance of this offense is so completely lacking as to force Carson to throw into double coverage 3/4 of the time. If the DC on the other sideline is perceptive enough to realize that we are going to pass 75% of the time, what do you think he will do?

Throwing mud at Carson to defend the indefensibly poor play that Chad made on fourth down is what lacks perspective, in my mind.

I see your point -- in fact, it's exactly like throwing mud at the offensive coordinator to defend the indefensibly poor play of Carson Palmer.

Bottom line is Palmer had a far crappier game than Chad Johnson, yet you and others claim that he is "the last of the problems with this offense." Well, all I ever claimed was that -- if you're looking for skapegoats as this thread is -- that Carson Palmer was well ahead of Chad Johnson in the order of problems with the offense in the Pittsburgh game. Yet the favorite target is #85. Why not start with the PLAYER who was most responsible for us being down 14 points and 4th and 14? That's my take on it from a player standpoint. As for playcalling, well, it's easy to say that when a running play didn't work it should've been a pass and visa versa ad nauseum. I'm not going to defend Brat other than to say that he's coached us to wins over Pittsburgh before, so he sometimes has the right calls. I won't say that he wasn't pass-happy in this game because I do think that's a valid complaint. More so because, after the first series, it was consistently clear that Palmer was having a hard time hitting the broad side of just about anything.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I firmly believe that Mike Brown is an uber conservative douchebag who could have, and probably should have, moved his team from Cincinnati when he had the chance.

f**k that.

Cincinnati's been very good to Mike Brown. He is swimming in millions, family's set for life and beyond, and always attracts huge, loyal crowds for the most part, despite running the least successful NFL franchise in pro football history (and if not, one of the bottom 2 or 3 at best). Mike Brown is a douche, and every fan who criticizes him, has every right in the world to do so, and plenty to back it up with at this point.

You think he'd get away with his frugal, out-dated family run business model in a city like Baltimore or LA, the way he runs it now? Hell no he'd go broke or be forced out. People wouldn't show up there, or they'd mutilate him in the press without mercy.

Mike Brown should be kissing the a$$ of every Cincinnati fan and family.

He owes us all as far as I'm concerned, and barely lifts a finger to change or give back.

We'd get along just fine without NFL football in this city, it's on TV now 24/7 and the hometown team is the least interesting to watch just about every year any ways, and one of the best run teams are only 1.5 hours away.

But man, I'd sure miss those Bootsy Collins Bengals' music videos (ugh).

[bengalsfansince68]

if you're looking for skapegoats as this thread is

Way too many people looking for scapegoats! It drives me as a poster. The incessant pounding on ML causes me to post more than all other issues combined. I Certainly am not targeting Chad as a scapegoat. In this particular instance, Chad's fourth down play was arguably the worst play since Garo Yepremian in the Super Bowl. I certainly don't blame the loss on Chad, I never blame a loss on any one player. It was, however, inexcusable! Akili Smith's whole career was a series of bad football plays but he seriously never made a worse play in his career than Chad did on fourth down.

As for playcalling, well, it's easy to say that when a running play didn't work it should've been a pass and visa versa ad nauseum.

True. I am not making determinations after the fact based on the success or failure of any one play. I AM SAYING RUN THE F-ING FOOTBALL. Run it on first down and if it works or if it doesn't, run it again. I heard Lapham talking about this issue on Bengalsline. You are hoping to get four yards or more with the run on first down. If you get your four yards then you run the damn thing again on 2nd and 6. If you get your four yards you move to 3rd and 2, a much more manageble down and distance than 3rd and 8 or 10, as you frequently get with incomplete passes. Lapham agrees with me that if you have a 2nd and six, you should run it again. In the week that Lap spoke of it, the Bengals had 11 plays of 2nd and 6 or better and the dumbasses pass on 9 of those 11 plays. They, like most fans, simply don't understand the value of the rushing game in the NFL.

I heard T.J. talking about this and he referred to it as "old school". T.J. is right. Running the football is "old school" and sets up the pass game. I don't even know what "new school" is but I'll take "old school" against "new school" every week and win 9 of 10.

Every QB in the Hall of Fame will tell you that running the football is vital to making the pass game go.

The stealers have proven it to us over and over for 20 years by running it up our butts consistently and look at the record. This week it seemed Willie Parker was fumbling on every other play but they did not back off of a game plan that has kicked our asses for twenty years. Willie had 28 carries despite his fumbles. Christ guys, look at the history and see how many times they won primarily because they established the run and we didn't.

Look at the Jets game where we established a strong run game and compare that to this week when we completly

overloaded to the pass. The difference in our team from one to the other is startling.

I find myself screaming at the TV every week, RUN THE G-DAMNED FOOTBALL!!!

[HairOnFire]

You think he'd get away with his frugal, out-dated family run business model in a city like Baltimore or LA, the way he runs it now? Hell no he'd go broke or be forced out. People wouldn't show up there, or they'd mutilate him in the press without mercy.

You've just made my point for me. Cities can refuse to build new stadiums for franchises that have underperformed and fanbases can attempt to withhold support in the attempt to send a message to a misguided owner, but they do so at their own peril. And you need look no further for proof of this than the two examples you've provided as Los Angeles and Baltimore have lost the Chargers, Rams, Raiders, and Colts....not to mention spending decades trying to get new franchises.

Frankly, Cincinnati has already had a chance to send a message to Mike Brown about how they feel about his frugal out-dated business practices, and the result was overwhelming support for a stadium lease now considered so generous it's rumored to make babies cry.

So nice going, tough guy.

[Jet23]

You think he'd get away with his frugal, out-dated family run business model in a city like Baltimore or LA, the way he runs it now? Hell no he'd go broke or be forced out. People wouldn't show up there, or they'd mutilate him in the press without mercy.

You've just made my point for me. Cities can refuse to build new stadiums for franchises that have underperformed and fanbases can attempt to withhold support in the attempt to send a message to a misguided owner, but they do so at their own peril. And you need look no further for proof of this than the two examples you've provided as Los Angeles and Baltimore have lost the Chargers, Rams, Raiders, and Colts....not to mention spending decades trying to get new franchises.

Frankly, Cincinnati has already had a chance to send a message to Mike Brown about how they feel about his frugal out-dated business practices, and the result was overwhelming support for a stadium lease now considered so generous it's rumored to make babies cry.

So nice going, tough guy.

Yeah, and not only does Mike have a great new stadium, he also has a swell new employee. And many of the slack jawed, mouth breathing, tractor pull attending futgards that voted for the stadium learned a brand new word, collusion.

[HairOnFire]

Yeah, and not only does Mike have a great new stadium, he also has a swell new employee. And many of the slack jawed, mouth breathing, tractor pull attending futgards that voted for the stadium learned a brand new word, collusion.

So lesson learned, right? The slack jawed, mouth breathing, tractor pull attending futgards learned how few options they had and finally accepted their fate, until one day later....when they promptly started complaining and second guessing everything.

And now, after stewing in their own juices for awhile the angriest members of the mouth breathing tribe starting yammering about sending the same owner a new message, which ironically is exactly the same as the old message they just couldn't bring themselves to send when it actually mattered.

I do admit it's all very impressive.

[Jet23]

Yeah, and not only does Mike have a great new stadium, he also has a swell new employee. And many of the slack jawed, mouth breathing, tractor pull attending futgards that voted for the stadium learned a brand new word, collusion.

So lesson learned, right? The slack jawed, mouth breathing, tractor pull attending futgards learned how few options they had and finally accepted their fate, until one day later....when they promptly started complaining and second guessing everything.

And now, after stewing in their own juices for awhile the angriest members of the mouth breathing tribe starting yammering about sending the same owner a new message, which ironically is exactly the same as the old message they just couldn't bring themselves to send when it actually mattered.

I do admit it's all very impressive.

So, you advocate the fleecing of slack jawed, mouth breathing, tractor pull attending futgards? Bengal Bob knew it would take said slack jawed, mouth breathing, tractor pull attending futgards a good while to understand the ramifications of a lease that was SUPPOSEDLY negotiated on their behalf. Is there any doubt that some form of this conversation took place?

Bengal Bob: You know Mr. Brown, once the slack jawed, mouth breathing, tractor pull attending Hamilton County futgards figure this out; I have no chance of being elected mayor of Cleves around here.

SOP: Don't worry Bob, you just slip this past the slack jawed, mouth breathing, tractor pull attending futgards and I'll pay you a tidy salary out of the Injury Settlement / Grievance fund. Henceforth, you will be known as Bengal Bob and you will defend our right not to contribute to a practice bubble, or anything for that matter. You will be like a third son to me, and like Pauly, you are actually a boy.

And that boys and girls is the story of how the most profitable organization in all of sports was formed.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

You think he'd get away with his frugal, out-dated family run business model in a city like Baltimore or LA, the way he runs it now? Hell no he'd go broke or be forced out. People wouldn't show up there, or they'd mutilate him in the press without mercy.

You've just made my point for me. Cities can refuse to build new stadiums for franchises that have underperformed and fanbases can attempt to withhold support in the attempt to send a message to a misguided owner, but they do so at their own peril. And you need look no further for proof of this than the two examples you've provided as Los Angeles and Baltimore have lost the Chargers, Rams, Raiders, and Colts....not to mention spending decades trying to get new franchises.

Frankly, Cincinnati has already had a chance to send a message to Mike Brown about how they feel about his frugal out-dated business practices, and the result was overwhelming support for a stadium lease now considered so generous it's rumored to make babies cry.

So nice going, tough guy.

Hey I won't argue the Brown family's law/business saavy, it's the "football" part of things they don't get. It's why they need a personnel GM from outside the family. Cincinnati "did" send a message in 2002 by not re-newing season or buying tickets en masse, to the point Brown really started to take notice. So, he pulled the wool over us again with a band aid in Marvin Lewis, and for once, a little effort/modern thought. As we all should know by now after one winning season in five years since, it wasn't enough.

My original point was that he's safe and secure here in Cincy and is taking advantage of the situation IMO - and would seem to at least owe the fans and city some love back - none of which we've really seen yet. And "that" more than anything is why I despise how the guy runs things here.

[Kirkendall]

Cincinnati's been very good to Mike Brown. He is swimming in millions, family's set for life and beyond, and always attracts huge, loyal crowds for the most part, despite running the least successful NFL franchise in pro football history (and if not, one of the bottom 2 or 3 at best). Mike Brown is a douche, and every fan who criticizes him, has every right in the world to do so, and plenty to back it up with at this point.

You think he'd get away with his frugal, out-dated family run business model in a city like Baltimore or LA, the way he runs it now? Hell no he'd go broke or be forced out. People wouldn't show up there, or they'd mutilate him in the press without mercy.

Mike Brown should be kissing the a$$ of every Cincinnati fan and family.

He owes us all as far as I'm concerned, and barely lifts a finger to change or give back.

We'd get along just fine without NFL football in this city, it's on TV now 24/7 and the hometown team is the least interesting to watch just about every year any ways, and one of the best run teams are only 1.5 hours away.

But man, I'd sure miss those Bootsy Collins Bengals' music videos (ugh).

I don't understand how a Bengals fan would actually support letting the Bengals leave Cincinnati because "Mike Brown is a douche". I understand your frustrations, but still.

[TJJackson]

The slack jawed, mouth breathing, tractor pull attending futgards

I just want to clarify....I have never attended a tractor pull

[bengalsfansince68]

I just want to clarify....I have never attended a tractor pull

Understood, but, are you a slack jawed, mouthbreathing futgard?

What is a slack jawed, mouthbreathing futgard?

[ArmyBengal]

I'm not sure what it is either... Is that anything like a webtoed, anal dwelling, assbag ??

WHODEY !!!

[damiancasey]

"futgard" is a Swiss derivation of the old english "ferth geerd" which, as everyone knows, is a slang term for an arctic polar bear dung beetle.