More questions for Coach Lewis

[membengal]

Justin Smith. Robert Geathers. Leon Hall. Jonathan Joseph. Landon Johnson.

I wonder about Domato Peko on your list. When he's healthy, Ahmad Brooks.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that that the Colts, Pats, Cowboys and Steelers would rather have the players you listed than the people thay already have at those same posistions!?!

Perhaps you simply misunderstood how I phrased my question. Name a single starting defensive player on the Bungles that would start ahead of any of the players the Colts, Pats, Steelers or Cowboys have starting for them now?

What exactly has Brooks done to make you feel that the Pats or Colts would start him in place of their own current MLB?

We don't have the same caliber of talent the top teams in the league have. Do we have better talent here and there the Cards or the Fins or the Jets, sure. But that's what we're reduced to comparing ourselves too now? The 0-7 Rams!?!

I disagree with your statement that I have bolded above.

With regard to your first query...yes, I am seriously telling you that.

I am telling you, in converse, that if you took the same players whose praises you are singing from those same teams and put them on this team coached by the Bengals' defensive coaches that all of a sudden, they would appear to be less good than they are.

I am trying to be clear. This. is. not. a. talent. issue.

It. is. a. coaching. issue.

[Bengals1]

I disagree with your statement that I have bolded above.

With regard to your first query...yes, I am seriously telling you that.

I am telling you, in converse, that if you took the same players whose praises you are singing from those same teams and put them on this team coached by the Bengals' defensive coaches that all of a sudden, they would appear to be less good than they are.

I am trying to be clear. This. is. not. a. talent. issue.

It. is. a. coaching. issue.

Okay, and I'm saying it's both. I simply don't agree with you that the players you've listed would be significantly better players on another team with other, better coaches. But since there's no realistic way to prove that at this time let's just agree to disagree.

Now, do our coaches mostly suck too? Oh you betcha!!!

[membengal]

You don't think Smith or Geathers could play in NE ahead of Jarvis Greer?

Or that Hall and Joseph wouldn't start ahead of Ellis Hobbs in NE? And if not, well, good lord, by all means, please feel free to blame our defensive coaches.

You really think Greg Ellis is an impregnable talent at OLB in Dallas?

I am not sure Bart Scott is all that in Baltimore. He's good. But Landon Johnson in that system? Might be beastly himself. Get him some coaching. And a decent system that amplifies his skills.

My point stands. The players on those Ds you cited have their talents maximized by coaching that is designed, from the off-season workouts right up to game time planning and in-game coaching, to get the most out of what those players do and put them in positions to succeed.

The Bengals' coaches don't do that.

To fall back on "it's not enough talent"...well, I just don't think that is the case in each instance. I will give you that Myers/Thornton would perhaps not start for those teams (m a y b e), and perhaps Madieu Williams, but, more likely, those coaching staffs would take those guys as well and put them in positions to succeed. Our coaching staff doesn't do that.

[membengal]

That said, I am content with "agree to disagree" moments. And, yes, I do concur with any slings and arrows you would toss at this coaching staff.

[HoosierCat]

That said, I am content with "agree to disagree" moments. And, yes, I do concur with any slings and arrows you would toss at this coaching staff.

OK, I'll save the slings and arrows for the coaching staff. But I also have this little plastic toy gun that shoots those darts with the suction cups on the end -- can I still use that on Mike Brown?

[membengal]

Of course. I could no more stop the anger at Mike Brown than I can get Carson Palmer to stop kneeling down and killing the play whenever he thinks the D is offsides.

I just prefer to direct mine at the coaches most clearly responsible for the nearly criminally negligent incompetence I am seeing on a weekly basis on the field.

[bwillycuse]

Why does the team teach Palmer to kneel down on apparent offsides rather than trying to take advantage of a free play?

I absolutely HATE that play. If I'm not mistaken, that play also backfired in the last game of the year last year.

I go apes**t everytime he does that. Drop back and throw a bomb. It really seems like a weak move.

[Bengals1]

You don't think Smith or Geathers could play in NE ahead of Jarvis Greer?

No, I honestly don't. Smith was taken at #4 because he was the best DE in a weak class and because he fit a position of need at that time. What has he done after his rookie year to make anyone believe he'd be a top 10 player at this point in his career? He certainly hasn't "improved" since he came to us that's for sure. You blame the coaches and yes, to some extent I agree with you. Could he do better with other coaches and better players around him, sure, I'll buy that, but is he "inherently" better than the DE's the Steelers, Pats, COlts and Cowboys have, no.

Or that Hall and Joseph wouldn't start ahead of Ellis Hobbs in NE? And if not, well, good lord, by all means, please feel free to blame our defensive coaches.

What in Gods name are you basing that on!?! What has Hall done to make you feel he could start for anybody yet? Are you basing that on potential alone? Joseph is most likely playing hurt but again, he's done little in the short time he's been a Bungle to suggest that he could start for the best teams in the league.

My point stands. The players on those Ds you cited have their talents maximized by coaching that is designed, from the off-season workouts right up to game time planning and in-game coaching, to get the most out of what those players do and put them in positions to succeed.

The Bengals' coaches don't do that.

To fall back on "it's not enough talent"...well, I just don't think that is the case in each instance. I will give you that Myers/Thornton would perhaps not start for those teams (m a y b e), and perhaps Madieu Williams, but, more likely, those coaching staffs would take those guys as well and put them in positions to succeed. Our coaching staff doesn't do that.

Our coaches don't help I agree but neither do our scouts, they've populated this roster with a bunch of underacheiver's and substandard players. To say that a handful of them might or "would' be great if they just had the right coaches is speculative at best. I just don't see it, but if we wholesale change out our defensive coaching staff this off season membengal and they suddenly start achieving good things defensively I'll be the first to write back and say I was wrong.

Don't hold yer' breath however....

[HairOnFire]

As part of their negotiations for a new stadium in the 1990s, Brown got the local county government to give him spacious practice fields on prime riverfront land next to Paul Brown Stadium, which opened for the 2000 season. Players have only to cross a street to work out on an artificial turf field and several nicely manicured grass fields.

The Bengals are reluctant to cover one of the existing practice field precisely because those fields are excellent, ideally located, and a roof would actually be a hinderance about 364 days out of the year. In addiiton, only one of the practice fields isn't natural grass so if it's determined the best choice for a covered facility is on the current site of a grass field another expensive artificial turf field would have to installed. Do that and you're suddenly talking about alot of assets being devoted to a practice field that will be rarely used.

When a major snowstorm moved in on Wednesday, coach Marvin Lewis had to put his team on buses and take it one county north to an indoor soccer facility for a workout. The buses got caught in gridlocked traffic on the way to the facility and the way back, making for a long day and completely throwing off the schedule.

For those who don't remember...or simply prefer that you don't.....the above rant ignores how this snowstorm was so extreme that it closed down almost all traffic over a multi-state area. In fact, several NFL teams in the same region were unable to use the expensive indoor practice facilities they had built on-site due to a lack of power and lack of running water. In short, when the facilities were needed most....(wait for it).....they were unavailable for use.

[membengal]

I'm basing the Hall and Joseph statement, bengals1, on if they were in the NE system with the NE coaches, they would be reaching their potential. They were universal 1st round picks. The Bengals didn't reach on them. Everyone had them going right where they should have gone. They've got talent. They are not reaching it here? Fine. That's on the coaches.

But don't pretend that they don't have talent.

And, if you think a journeyman like Greer is all that and three bags of chips, I promise you Smith would be a beast in the NE system with the help that is around Greer there.

[Bengals1]

I'm basing the Hall and Joseph statement, bengals1, on if they were in the NE system with the NE coaches, they would be reaching their potential. They were universal 1st round picks. The Bengals didn't reach on them. Everyone had them going right where they should have gone. They've got talent. They are not reaching it here? Fine. That's on the coaches.

But don't pretend that they don't have talent.

I understand that but bottom line it's just suposistion and guess work. Not every player drafted by NE or Pitt or Indy has worked out. I agree both players in question here have plenty of potential, potential they'd more likely reach more easily in another teams system under a different and better coaching staff. But it's all speculation on both our parts since we'll most likely never know for sure.

And that's probably the most we're going to agree on here. However, I appreciate the back and forth with you.

[membengal]

Since you are agreeing they have potential, you must also be agreeing they have talent. Which cuts against your initial thesis. So I am content at that point.

And, yes, the discussion has been pleasant.

[Bengals1]

Since you are agreeing they have potential, you must also be agreeing they have talent. Which cuts against your initial thesis. So I am content at that point.

And, yes, the discussion has been pleasant.

I never doubted tbey had talent, they both started for major college programs and were 1st round draft picks after all. But until and unless they "prove" themselves I wouldn't go as far as you have and suggested they would start right now for some of the best teams in the league.

2 or 3 years from now.......?

[membengal]

Why do you think the best teams in the league are the best teams in the league? Perhaps because they maximize the talent they have? You can't look at each of the rosters you have mentioned and find much commonality. The Pats have built their O-line largely on later round picks and undrafted free agents. That cuts against what many in here want. Why is that working for them? They found uber-talented guys? Or they found guys with the usual talent and coached them up and got them in a position to succeed? (ex-Bengals cut Kelly Gregg waves a big "Hi!" from the middle of Baltimore's d-line...) I know which one I think is more logical. That being said, why would guys with actual marketable skills not be massive successes for those kinds of teams and coaches? If Justin Smith had hit the open market last off-season, he would have hit a $40 million plus dollar contract from someone. Make no mistake, he is not a stiff, despite what people here think. If he looks bad, look at the coaching.

Why is Robert Geathers with his freakish athleticism not a force? Again, I think he would be elsewhere. Put him on Pittsburgh and he would live in the backfield.

I just think the issues here on defense, certainly, really begin with a gawdawful coaching job. There IS plenty of talent here. It is NOT being maxmized. They are short at Sam LB, I don't buy Jeanty as all that capable. But I give them a minor pass there given what happened to Pollack (although it should have been addressed before now in terms of replacement). I don't like Dex Jax at SS. I think Williams is close to busting. There are indeed some holes. But WHY is Williams busting? By all accounts, he was quite something as a rookie. We all thought so. The results were there. WHY has he regressed? To what do you look for to account for that?

No, for me, coaching is so very much of why some teams succeed and some don't. Identifying, hiring, empowering, and retaining competent coaches. For whatever reason, the Bengals have not been good at that since 1991. For that I do blame Mike Brown. But that is different than calling him cheap or bitching about a practice dome.

The current issues? ML's fault. He has held on to good friends at various coaching positions that have betrayed him with incompetence. It has fed into his own shortcomings. Players are not getting better. They should be. Schemes make no sense. There is no creativity. There is no fire.

Talent? Not the overall issue.

Coaching? Absolutely the overall issue.

[Bengals1]

I guess for me membengal you're whole hypothesis rests on the belief that our scouting dept. found the best talent to begin with and we drafted it.

In the case of JJ I say, maybe.

In the case of Hall and Smith I say, maybe not.

They both may have been fairly highly thought of when they came out but both had question marks also. Hall was considered a tad slow and many pointed out how badly he got beat in the OSU game and against SC in the Rose Bowl last year. Smith was considered by many a bit of a reach at the #4 spot although to be fair, he was considered to be the best DE to come out that year. His short arms were a concern for many clubs and one can argue after watching him for the last few years they may have been proven right.

Your whole theory is based on the foundation that we drafted the right guys and then let them deteriorate due to poor coaching. I have to question whether our small and arguably poor scouting dept. drafted the best player to begin with.

So that's where we part ways. I agree we need better coaches and that better coaches might be able to get better performance out of the players we currently have. I just don't agree that simply because we took them in the first or second round they must be great players and we've just crushed their talent with our crappy coaching.

I'm saying it might be a combination of poor drafting and poor coaching, a killer combination if ever there was one, don't you agree?

[membengal]

Was Hall a consensus 1st round pick?

Was Smith a consensus top 10 pick?

If so, then where is the scouting an issue? That the Bengals agreed with the consensus? I think it easier to believe those guys posess skill sets that are valuable, and it is up to coaches to get the best out of them. Let me know when the Bengals get some coaches who do...

Kelly Gregg still waves "Hi" from Baltimore...

[Bengals1]

Was Hall a consensus 1st round pick?

Was Smith a consensus top 10 pick?

If so, then where is the scouting an issue?

Big Daddy was a consensus #1 pick too.....

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Akili wasn't a consensus top 5-6 pick, neither was Justin Smith or Peter Warrick, they could've dropped into the teens or worse depending.

There's 3 major examples. It runs deeper than coaching. Even Hall dropped and was passed over by other teams. Odell was someone everyone else passed over in the 1st round and may have very well dropped into the 3rd or 4th.

What about Keiwan Ratliff or Artrell Hawkins? People laughed at those picks. Levi Jones - same thing and he's now proving why.

Oh but wait, Paul Alexander is a great coach and we jabbed Shula for criticizing Paul all these years, whoops.

I thought Stacey Andrews and Guy-chick were great picks too? Andrews is the next Willlllie!!

I think the only picks the Bengals' actually get right are the consensus picks (uh, Palmer), and that's a big part of the problem as well.

But, go ahead with your strange support of Mike Brown, please by all means.

[membengal]

Shula, I think I will leave the deconstruction of that to Hair, or will have to get to it later.

Strange support? My request that people stop trying to turn him into a boogeyman is strange support? Fair enough. Guilty as charged.

But go ahead and ascribe everything possibly bad ever to him, and ignore what is going on by those who have been hired to, quoting ML, "do their jobs"....

But, quickly, off the top of my head:

Akili was one of three consensus qbs that everyone was talking about for those picks. He sucked. Couch sucked. McNabb didn't. But it's not like the Bengals got to choose, they got the one left over. But no one was killing them for that at the time.

Smith was a consensus top 10 pick. And he's lived up to his position. He won't be a Hall of Famer, but he's been a solid pro.

Peter Warrick was just fine, and was turning into a star. He got hurt.

Levi Jones has been rock solid, and he got hurt. He'll be fine.

Who was Hall passed over by and what were their needs? The Jets need a CB, and the Bengals. The Jets got one, the Bengals got the other, and every draft observer (paid version) agreed he was who they should have gotten. Andrews and Ghuicac are working out fine. But if they are not, then, yes, yell at Alexander. The Pats turn guys like them into all-pros. I happen to think they are progressing, but if you don't, I don't think it is because they are talentless. Far from it.

Ratliff sucked. They blew that one. I am guessing they are not the only team to blow a draft pick in the last 10 years. Even you have to admit that.

Nothing you have said their, nothing, begins to absolve the piss-poor job done by Lewis. Nothing.

[HairOnFire]

Shula, I think I will leave the deconstruction of that to Hair, or will have to get to it later.

I wasn't going to bother, mostly because all Shula seems interested in is slapping himself on the back.

As for the rant about consensus opinion, what's that worth? For example, any discussion of Justin Smith's pre-draft status had him firmly entrenched as a bluechip player unlikely to fall beyond the 7th or 8th slot under any scenario, and far higher if a selecting team had a true need for a DE. As a result, his selection by the Bengals was one of the least suprising picks from that draft. In fact, the only criticism of the pick centered on whether LT was an even greater need, with many suggesting the Bengals should have selected a player who eventually went 14th to Tampa Bay. That discussion prompted yet another consensus opinion that Tampa had gotten the steal of the draft...when in reality the player that fell to them busted outright.

Years later the consensus opinion at the time is almost forgotten in favor of remarkable accurate second guessing based upon firm hindsight. Also ignored is the fact that one year later the Bengals drafted the LT critics agreed they desperately needed, Levi Jones, a selction that most critics later admitted was outstanding. (Obviously Levi hasn't played well this season, but that's largely due to the injury related concerns that guys like Shula like to ignore....as it interferes with their back slapping.)

As for the rant about Joseph and Hall, I'm not sure where to buy in. In both examples I was heavily pimping the choice of a 1st round CB, but neither player was my first choice. Then again, it can be argued that both players ranked amongst the highest rated defenders remaining, and if CB was a real need the selection couldn't be put off. As for how it's played out, Joseph was far better as a rookie than I could have hoped, but seems to have taken a step back. As for Hall, I've seen what everyone else has. Namely, he's impressive at times and horrible at others. Hardly suprising considering is career is just 8 games long. That said, if we're still seeing the same player at this time next season then I'll join others in sounding the alarm.

A far stronger argument can be made that the Bengals willingly and knowing reached for Akili Smith, but that's an old battle that fans like Shula will always wallow in if given the opportunity. I see no reason to indulge his desires. Suffice to say Mike Brown took another huge reach for a franchise QB and came up completely crappers. In that regard he's hardly unique, but that doesn't control the damage done.

However, I do find it funny how Brown gets no credit whatsoever for selecting Carson Palmer, as if that decision was such a no-brainer that Bengal fans considered no other options. I remember fan polls on the Huddles board that often ended in Palmer finishing barely ahead of, or even slightly behind, Byron Leftwich, a player who many draft sites considered superior. So much for the idea of a consensus, ehh?

Just saying...

[membengal]

Was Hall a consensus 1st round pick?

Was Smith a consensus top 10 pick?

If so, then where is the scouting an issue?

Big Daddy was a consensus #1 pick too.....

Sure was. And he had a long NFL career.

That he didn't reach what he should have been is on him. And, it is also, I would submit, on his coaches in Cincinnati back in the day...

[Bobcat Bengal]

Why does the team teach Palmer to kneel down on apparent offsides rather than trying to take advantage of a free play?

I absolutely HATE that play. If I'm not mistaken, that play also backfired in the last game of the year last year.

what happened?

[JohnsonX5]

what happened?

IIRC, a guy on the Bills dline jumped into an offside position but then quickly moved back onside. After he moved back onside, Palmer did his usual hike and immediate kneel down thing, resulting in a yard loss since there was no penalty on the play. It essentially amounted to the same thing as handing the ball off to Rudi. I also wonder why he never takes a free shot downfield or at least runs the play that was called to see what happens.

[HairOnFire]

I also wonder why he never takes a free shot downfield or at least runs the play that was called to see what happens.

The explanation I was given after voicing comparable complaints relates to how much motion and movement the Bengals use on nearly every play. In short, if you attempt to take a shot downfield...or simply run the play called after a quick snap...you're almost certain to receive an offensive penalty related to illegal formation, too many men in motion, false start, et cetera.

[Jet23]

I also wonder why he never takes a free shot downfield or at least runs the play that was called to see what happens.

The explanation I was given after voicing comparable complaints relates to how much motion and movement the Bengals use on nearly every play. In short, if you attempt to take a shot downfield...or simply run the play called after a quick snap...you're almost certain to receive an offensive penalty related to illegal formation, too many men in motion, false start, et cetera.

What the he!! sense does that make? If you are in an illegal formation you will get a flag whether you throw a bomb or take a knee. Same with illegal motion. I can accept that possibly the OL may not be ready to properly protect Carson, but I believe that play has worked about 50% of the time. It's not worth it.