A Rudi conversation

[wittbengal29]

I have forever been and will always be a Bengals supporter, and this team is really killing me. The struggles of our offensive line really highlights how unimportant the running back position in our offense is. On top of that we need a shifty runner and that is not what Rudi brings. I have been extremely unimpressed with him the last few years (really during his whole career).

I understand he was consistent, 'mark him down for 1200 and 10 TDs' type of back. I think if you look at those seasons it had more to do with our offensive line playing at an extremely high level. We need to worry about the O-line first and foremost (Look at LJ's struggles this year, or Denver's success every year). I find it hard to believe any Joe Schmo running back wouldn't put up similar numbers to Rudi's behind our O-line, I just don't see him making people miss and exploding through the creases...

Why reward Rudi with a big contract and STILL try and take his starting position with a top running back in 2005 (Perry, although this was before the contract correct?) and 2007 (Irons)...

My vote is cut him in the offseason and ride The Kenny's and pray Chris Perry can finally get right. I am sick of a 'consistent' back, I want the electricity that a game-changer type of running back can provide (which I believe our 3 other runnings backs can)...

I can't believe no one brings this up as a subtle problem we have, Watson has filled in pretty well thus far...at least when he touches the ball it seems like he COULD break a long run (even if it hasn't happened)...

Please let me know some opinions on this, I wish more football fans would voice how little a high-paid running back is worth...

[HairOnFire]

I find it hard to believe any Joe Schmo running back wouldn't put up similar numbers to Rudi's behind our O-line...

The Bengals used a 1st round draft pick on the very explosive Joe Schmo, and then a few years later burned a 2nd round pick on the incredibly wiggly Guy Schmendrick. How's that working out?

As for Rudi, he signed a fairly modest contract that was structured in such a way that he could be cut with very little impact after three seasons. We're already past that point, so if the Bengals conclude after this season that it's time to blow up this team and start over, and they just might, I'd have little problem with the idea of including Rudi in the purge.

[skyline]

The ideal solution would be to have a steady guy like Rudi and an explosive compliment to him ala 2005. Unfortunately, they're ALL hurt...explosive and consistent alike.

If Rudi comes back from this injury, then I think he still has a role to play on this team, but he needs a 2nd guy getting regular snaps to keep him fresh. If this injury nags Rudi all season, then I'm with you guys. It's time to break ties...

[mgilgris]

Watch rudi run in the games that he wasnt hurt. He puts his arm up to stiff arm before the DL even gets close enough to him. This is a scared style of running that is not what his past has been about. No more do you see him either hitting the hole hard or attempting to bull rush someone.

I love Rudi but he is not right either due to the past wear and tear or just gun shy. I dont know if he fits the consistent back even at this point.

[COB]

I wish more football fans would voice how little a high-paid running back is worth...

Mike Shanahan, why are you posting on a Bengals board?

I'm just guessing at what you mean when you say you want the electricity a game-changer type running back brings. I suppose more speed, more elusiveness? We'll have to sacrifice size and power. Which is a problem when you play in the AFC North.

First of all, the weather. We're not playing in the NFC South. The second half of our season brings rain, snow, and cold. Footing suffers, hands get numb.

Secondly, our running game faces Baltimore's defense twice a year, Pittsburgh's defense twice a year. You've probably noticed those defenses enjoy fielding a variety of HGH creations, designer steroid test cases, and murderers. You might end up seeing more of your scatback than you bargained for. Like some of his gray matter on the PBS turf.

AFC North teams run out backs like Rudi, Jerome Bettis, Jamal Lewis, etc., for good reason. You either smashmouth ‘em, or get smashmouthed.

[HoosierCat]

AFC North teams run out backs like Rudi, Jerome Bettis, Jamal Lewis, etc., for good reason. You either smashmouth ‘em, or get smashmouthed.

Yup, and that seems to be the heart of Rudi's problem this season. He's tried to reinvent himself from a 3-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust bruiser into...well, Chris Perry. But he doesn't have the speed or quicks for it.

[The PatternMaster]

I wish more football fans would voice how little a high-paid running back is worth...

Mike Shanahan, why are you posting on a Bengals board?

I'm just guessing at what you mean when you say you want the electricity a game-changer type running back brings. I suppose more speed, more elusiveness? We'll have to sacrifice size and power. Which is a problem when you play in the AFC North.

First of all, the weather. We're not playing in the NFC South. The second half of our season brings rain, snow, and cold. Footing suffers, hands get numb.

Secondly, our running game faces Baltimore's defense twice a year, Pittsburgh's defense twice a year. You've probably noticed those defenses enjoy fielding a variety of HGH creations, designer steroid test cases, and murderers. You might end up seeing more of your scatback than you bargained for. Like some of his gray matter on the PBS turf.

AFC North teams run out backs like Rudi, Jerome Bettis, Jamal Lewis, etc., for good reason. You either smashmouth ‘em, or get smashmouthed.

yeah what he said, you need a bruising back like Rudi when you play our divisional games, for further proof check Jamal Lewis's stats vs. AFC North teams. He's one of the best backs to play in our division for some time and when he has success his team usually wins.

I think we don't use Rudi correctly, Rudi is the type of back you have use early and often and Brat/Carson like to take teams "breathe away" early and often by going for the big play in the passing game. Rudi is the type of back how needs 15 carries before halftime to truly be effective and too often our offense doesn't give him that opportunity due to how the qb/o-coordinator call the game. So while Rudi isn't the flashy homerun type of back that we all want him to be but he's no slouch either.

Unfortunately for the poor Jamiacian kids Rudi could get cut this offseason #1 I don't think Marvin was truly satisfied with Rudi but he couldn't get rid of the fan favorite(btw,when's the last time you heard a Ru-di Ru-di chant in PBS??) #2 Rudi is getting up there in age and the wear and tear of his running style is starting to come back to haunt him, look at a guy like Stephen Davis who was a very similar back to Rudi, he had a good 3-4 year run and then the injuries came and it was a wrap.

I can't disagree that we need a more dynamic back but those guys just don't grow on trees and we have had a few injury problems with the current guys on the roster. I think how Chris Perry performs this year will be determine the future of the this position, if Perry shows he can stay healthy and produce we will probably let him and the Kenny's man the position if not who knows.

[CJBestInAFC]

So how does Willie Parker do so well? He is not a brusing back but is one of the top backs in the NFL.

[HairOnFire]

Either style of back can succeed in the AFC North, and in bad weather. The real issue has been durability and the inability of the Bengals to keep complimentary style backs healthy under normal circumstances. And quite frankly, criticizing Rudi's past performance is a bit of a joke considering those circumstances. I'd say he was a bargain on draft day and not only has earned his paycheck ever since...he's probably outperformed it. But sadly none of that matters much today.

I've been a big Rudi guy, but you do have to wonder what options the Bengals have going forward. Rudi's skill level probably hasn't fallen off as badly as many seem to think, and I think talk that he's reinvented himself into a lesser back is pure folly. But he's not the type of back who can produce at a high level if the Bengals offensive line isn't in command of the line of scrimmage, and that hasn't happened of late....for obvious reasons. So the Bengals need to find some answers about what Rudi has left, whether Chris Perry can be anything more than a disappointing tease, and what type of future Kenny Irons still has. And if those answers are found lacking I guess you also have to consider whether yet another high draft pick has to be burned on an offensive skill position that keeps stealing assets from attempts to build other areas.

[kingwilly]

Either style of back can succeed in the AFC North, and in bad weather. The real issue has been durability and the inability of the Bengals to keep complimentary style backs healthy under normal circumstances. And quite frankly, criticizing Rudi's past performance is a bit of a joke considering those circumstances. I'd say he was a bargain on draft day and not only has earned his paycheck ever since...he's probably outperformed it. But sadly none of that matters much today.

I've been a big Rudi guy, but you do have to wonder what options the Bengals have going forward. Rudi's skill level probably hasn't fallen off as badly as many seem to think, and I think talk that he's reinvented himself into a lesser back is pure folly. But he's not the type of back who can produce at a high level if the Bengals offensive line isn't in command of the line of scrimmage, and that hasn't happened of late....for obvious reasons. So the Bengals need to find some answers about what Rudi has left, whether Chris Perry can be anything more than a disappointing tease, and what type of future Kenny Irons still has. And if those answers are found lacking I guess you also have to consider whether yet another high draft pick has to be burned on an offensive skill position that keeps stealing assets from attempts to build other areas.

Rudi, at this point, is a back who can ONLY produce if his O-Line is at 100%. This team needs someone who can produce yards on thier own, as in, when the line is less than 100%. Any NFL back will get yards behind a 100% healthy Bengals line. Hell, any back gets yards behind a Broncos line at 100%. To me, Rudi is not as effective as Watson given the current state of the line.

What if they got Rudi healthy and sent him to a place like Chicago, GB or the Eagles for an r2 pick? Would any of you complain?

From a drafting philosophy view, they need to reload on the core positions, Tackle, Guard, DT and DE before going with the flashy positions. They can use a serviceable RB like Watson until then.

[HairOnFire]

I think you're dreaming. I'm a bigger Rudi fan than almost anyone here, but backs aren't swapped for high draft choices in todays NFL unless they're young. Granted, there are exceptions and they don't need to be listed. I just think any trade would probably net no more than a late round pick, and truth be told it's far more likely that if the decision to move on without Rudi is made you're looking at a straight salary cap cut.

As for Watson, the question has always centered on how much of a load he could carry if used as a feature back....a question that also applies to every other Bengal RB not named Rudi Johnson.

That said, if Rudi were cut or traded I think it's likely the Bengals could make a lateral move and pick up another comparable back cut loose by another team for much the same reasons.

[The PatternMaster]

So how does Willie Parker do so well? He is not a brusing back but is one of the top backs in the NFL.

Willie does well for several reasons, #1 his franchise is committed to running the ball, everyone knows when the Steelers get off the bus they are going to try to run the ball and play good defense, #2 Parker is bruising enough to run between the tackles and he has the speed to bounce it outside, that combination serves him well, #3 the Steelers have bruising backs on the roster that can take alot the punishment which helps Parker stay healthy, guys like Verron Haynes and Najee Davenport get the short yardage and goal line carries in which a back like Parker would probably struggle given his style of play.

[oldschooler]

Why reward Rudi with a big contract and STILL try and take his starting position with a top running back in 2005 (Perry, although this was before the contract correct?) and 2007 (Irons)...

I think the plan was to have a change of pace back, not to replace Rudi.

I also think it says more about what they think of Watson, than what

they think of Rudi. Rudi had started 64 straight games, while Watson

came in on 3rd downs, and 2 RB`s were drafted. Chris Perry started

a couple of games in 2005, and never had more than 6 carries in either game.

In the 3 games Rudi started this season, the Bengals were 19-42 on 3rd down.

In the 2 games Rudi has (basically) missed (he had 4 carries against the Chiefs),

the Bengals are 1-18 on 3rd downs.

Coincidence ? I don`t think so.

[HoosierCat]

In the 3 games Rudi started this season, the Bengals were 19-42 on 3rd down.

In the 2 games Rudi has (basically) missed (he had 4 carries against the Chiefs),

the Bengals are 1-18 on 3rd downs.

Coincidence ? I don`t think so.

I do. Look at the play-by-play for the games. In the Baltimore game, Rudi had 0 3rd down carries. Same goose egg in Cleveland. In Seattle, Rudi had 2 3rd down carries, and converted once (by comparison, Jeremi had 1 3rd down carry for a conversion, and Kenny went 2-for-2). None of our backs had any 3rd down carries against NE; versus KC Kenny had 2 3rd down attempts and 1 4th down run, all of which failed.

Actually, if there's one thing that's not to blame for the problems on 3rd down, it's the run game -- because they have been almost exclusively passing on 3rd downs, even when they are in 3rd-and-short situations. They did try to run more on 3rd down against KC

[Bengals1]

It seems to me that Rudi's problems began a few years ago when he lost weight in an attempt to get "lighter" and faster.

For the last 2 years all Rudi seems to do is dash up to the line of scrimmage and p***y-foot around behind our linemen with his hand to their backs feeling around for a gap to squirt through. Usually this results in his getting dumped by an end or Linebacker who's shot around from the other side of the play and he gets dropped for little or no gain.

The once forceful runner Rudi was is gone. He simply doesn't run with any authority any more.

The problem is, do we trust our running game to an oft-injured C Perry and an already injured, untested Kenny Irons? Can we really afford to spend more money on another back if we do cut Rudi after this season? Or do we use one of our mid-round picks in next April's draft on an "insurance" back incase either Perry or Irons or Rudi can't cut it?

Questions...questions....

[oldschooler]

In the 3 games Rudi started this season, the Bengals were 19-42 on 3rd down.

In the 2 games Rudi has (basically) missed (he had 4 carries against the Chiefs),

the Bengals are 1-18 on 3rd downs.

Coincidence ? I don`t think so.

I do. Look at the play-by-play for the games. In the Baltimore game, Rudi had 0 3rd down carries. Same goose egg in Cleveland. In Seattle, Rudi had 2 3rd down carries, and converted once (by comparison, Jeremi had 1 3rd down carry for a conversion, and Kenny went 2-for-2). None of our backs had any 3rd down carries against NE; versus KC Kenny had 2 3rd down attempts and 1 4th down run, all of which failed.

Actually, if there's one thing that's not to blame for the problems on 3rd down, it's the run game -- because they have been almost exclusively passing on 3rd downs, even when they are in 3rd-and-short situations. They did try to run more on 3rd down against KC

Of course he had 0 3rd down carries.

He isn`t the 3rd down back.

Marvin and Brat both have stated that missing

Rudi has been a contributing factor. He helped them

be in less 3rd and long situations. And can be the bell cow.

[oldschooler]

It seems to me that Rudi's problems began a few years ago when he lost weight in an attempt to get "lighter" and faster.

For the last 2 years all Rudi seems to do is dash up to the line of scrimmage and p***y-foot around behind our linemen with his hand to their backs feeling around for a gap to squirt through. Usually this results in his getting dumped by an end or Linebacker who's shot around from the other side of the play and he gets dropped for little or no gain.

The once forceful runner Rudi was is gone. He simply doesn't run with any authority any more.

The problem is, do we trust our running game to an oft-injured C Perry and an already injured, untested Kenny Irons? Can we really afford to spend more money on another back if we do cut Rudi after this season? Or do we use one of our mid-round picks in next April's draft on an "insurance" back incase either Perry or Irons or Rudi can't cut it?

Questions...questions....

I`d say that has more to do with no viable backup,

and playing musical chairs with the O-line the past

2 seasons, than anything.

[Bengals1]

I`d say that has more to do with no viable backup,

and playing musical chairs with the O-line the past

2 seasons, than anything.

It's hard to say which is the cause. It's almost a 'chicken or the egg' situation here. Would another, better back gain more yardage and find more success behind our current line or is this the best we can expect playing all the back-ups at O-line?

I honestly think Rudi's been deteriorating a bit over the last few years and although we had our problems on the O-line last year too I still feel Rudi's about worn out his welcome.

The problem for me is whether either Perry or Irons can take over or do we spend more time and energy and money on another every-down back?

[HoosierCat]

Of course he had 0 3rd down carries.

He isn`t the 3rd down back.

Marvin and Brat both have stated that missing

Rudi has been a contributing factor. He helped them

be in less 3rd and long situations. And can be the bell cow.

Well, our "3rd down back" had 0 3rd down carries vs. Balti and Cleveland, too. Again, they're pretty heavily reliant on passing on 3rd down, even 3rd and short.

As for Rudi helping them to be in fewer 3rd and long situations..."contributing factor" might be a bit generous. Again, if you look at the play-by-play for the first two games, and the drives in Seattle and KC in which Rudi played, there are about 40 3rd downs, 14 of which (35%) were 3-10 or longer. Watson's number from the NE game and his time in Seattle and KC are 20 3rd downs, 7 of which -- again, 35% -- were 3-10 or longer.

Rudi's drives did have slightly more third and short situations, however. 20 of the 3rds on his drives (50%) were 3-4 or less, versus 7 (35%) of Watson's. Still, I'm not sure how significant that is given that, again, they overwhelmingly pass on third down. There's a big difference between, say, 3-3 and 3-7 if you're running; if you're passing, not so much.