Marvin lights into team after loss!

[BengalByTheBay]

We should of payed Porter whatever the hell we wanted.... I dont' care if he was in Pittsburgh... We need a player like Joey Porter right now.... We need that player badly....

Justin Smith where art thou?

Testify brother! Porter sure did bring a winning mentality, and physicality to Miami! .......

Wait.....never mind.

PS - I checked the stats. Porter has 11 tackles, 2 assists and 1 pass defended through 4 games. No sacks. I'm guessing that if Duke played LB for the first 3 games, he would have similar stats. Porter is no answer for the Bengals problems. Neither is any one player IMO.

[WhoDey93285]

Your opinion, just like it's my opinion that Marvin Lewis will never take this team to a Superbowl. Like I've said numerous times, I hope I'm wrong because I like the guy. But, I'm not.

Your signature also makes it clear that you like Chad Johnson, probably the least mature player on the team.

I'm just saying.....

When did I say anything about maturity? I don't believe I even mentioned that in my post. I really don't understand how you can't like a guy who leads the league in recieving every year and is a work-a-holic. Yeah, he likes to do stupid celebrations, but you can't argue with results. It's not like he's out smoking dope, sniffing crack, or raping women and spending a year in jail. That is what I define as immature. He does corny celebrations. So what? I'll take the celebrations with the 1400 yards recieving every year.

By the way, I know you're going to come back with the "What about last night?" referring to the Palmer incident, but the whole team is frustrated. Not just Chad.

[BengalByTheBay]

It's not like he's out smoking dope, sniffing crack, or raping women and spending a year in jail.

I hear he's been known to sample the herb with AGreen.

[BengalsMan3203]

We should of payed Porter whatever the hell we wanted.... I dont' care if he was in Pittsburgh... We need a player like Joey Porter right now.... We need that player badly....

Justin Smith where art thou?

Testify brother! Porter sure did bring a winning mentality, and physicality to Miami! .......

Wait.....never mind.

PS - I checked the stats. Porter has 11 tackles, 2 assists and 1 pass defended through 4 games. No sacks. I'm guessing that if Duke played LB for the first 3 games, he would have similar stats. Porter is no answer for the Bengals problems. Neither is any one player IMO.

Doesn't matter... We need the mouth... We need the leadership on D.... DJax aint doin it... O'Neil aint doing it... Justin Smith aint doing it... Someone needs to step up and hit someone in the face.... I don't see anyone doing that on our D.

[HairOnFire]

By the way, I know you're going to come back with the "What about last night?" referring to the Palmer incident, but the whole team is frustrated. Not just Chad.

Not true. I was going to point to Hoosier's rant about the halftime meltdown in 2005 being the first sign that Lewis was losing control of the team. Then I was going to mention Chad's sideline altercation with Jon Kitna from years ago. Raven game....not sure of the year. In hindsight perhaps that's when it all began to go bad. Or the way Chad pouted about not getting the ball enough last season when Palmer was running for his life behind a depleted offensive line. That couldn't have helped team unity, especially when that same player completely disappeared during the failed push for the playoffs.

I'm just riffing here, but maybe the blame doesn't start at the top. Maybe this team is built on a crumbling foundation of players.

[BengalByTheBay]

We should of payed Porter whatever the hell we wanted.... I dont' care if he was in Pittsburgh... We need a player like Joey Porter right now.... We need that player badly....

Justin Smith where art thou?

Testify brother! Porter sure did bring a winning mentality, and physicality to Miami! .......

Wait.....never mind.

PS - I checked the stats. Porter has 11 tackles, 2 assists and 1 pass defended through 4 games. No sacks. I'm guessing that if Duke played LB for the first 3 games, he would have similar stats. Porter is no answer for the Bengals problems. Neither is any one player IMO.

Doesn't matter... We need the mouth... We need the leadership on D.... DJax aint doin it... O'Neil aint doing it... Justin Smith aint doing it... Someone needs to step up and hit someone in the face.... I don't see anyone doing that on our D.

That's just the point, Porter isn't hitting anybody in the mouth with any more frequency than anybody else on our defense. Being a big mouth is overrated when you can't bring the wood any more. Porter's bag was producing sacks out of LeBeau's scheme. Absent that -- he's an incredibly overrated and overpaid player on an 0-4 Miami team that once had some pretty good players on defense.

[BengalsMan3203]

We should of payed Porter whatever the hell we wanted.... I dont' care if he was in Pittsburgh... We need a player like Joey Porter right now.... We need that player badly....

Justin Smith where art thou?

Testify brother! Porter sure did bring a winning mentality, and physicality to Miami! .......

Wait.....never mind.

PS - I checked the stats. Porter has 11 tackles, 2 assists and 1 pass defended through 4 games. No sacks. I'm guessing that if Duke played LB for the first 3 games, he would have similar stats. Porter is no answer for the Bengals problems. Neither is any one player IMO.

Doesn't matter... We need the mouth... We need the leadership on D.... DJax aint doin it... O'Neil aint doing it... Justin Smith aint doing it... Someone needs to step up and hit someone in the face.... I don't see anyone doing that on our D.

That's just the point, Porter isn't hitting anybody in the mouth with any more frequency than anybody else on our defense. Being a big mouth is overrated when you can't bring the wood any more. Porter's bag was producing sacks out of LeBeau's scheme. Absent that -- he's an incredibly overrated and overpaid player on an 0-4 Miami team that once had some pretty good players on defense.

Then who the hell would want to play LB for the team... Cuz from the looks of things people aren't breaking down the doors to get into line to suit up for us...

[HairOnFire]

That's just the point, Porter isn't hitting anybody in the mouth with any more frequency than anybody else on our defense.

But grossly overpaying for a player is exactly the type of empty gesture that long suffering Bengals fans might appreciate. Granted, that overpaid player must be from another team.....

[HoosierCat]

I'm just riffing here, but maybe the blame doesn't start at the top. Maybe this team is built on a crumbling foundation of players.

Maybe. OTOH, who laid that foundation? We long ago agreed that Marvin has unprecedented control...and of late, all the most notable locker room problem children have been either his choices or rewarded under his reign. Primadonna Chad got a big-bucks extension early in Lewis' time here. Disgruntled Deltha came here on a draft day trade. Cranky Levi just got a Brinks truck full of cash last year.

At the same time, we've seen the ranks of (alleged) locker room good guys like Simmons, K2 and Braham thinned by cuts, free agency and retirement...and those guys have been replaced not by vets who might assume the same role, but backups and rooks. And you have to wonder about some of the most vocal (again alleged) locker room leaders like Big Willie and Thornton. How much do the younger guys listen to one player who can barely play and another who, more often than not, looks lousy on the field? Tough to tell others to do their job when you can't do yours.

The foundation may be crumbling, but I don't think that means the guy who poured it gets a pass.

[volcom69]

Well said Hoosier Marvin has to take some of this blame if not all of it nobody asked him to draft the players he did or pay the guys he did or relese the guys he did, this is his team and right now im not to sure how much control he really has of it. So i hope when he lights into this team he lights into them, for as long as he has been here there has been no disapline, and to me that starts at the top so i will blame Marvin and the coaching staff for this and its up to him to turn this around to get this team to play with heart and like a team and stop being so selfish.

[HairOnFire]

The foundation may be crumbling, but I don't think that means the guy who poured it gets a pass.

Well why not blame God, your parents, or fate for every misfortune in your life?

Do the players share any responsibility for the lack of discipline that has resulted in everything from blown assignments to blown breathalizer tests? Is Marvin to blame for everything?

It's actually your "Marvin lost 'em at halftime" rant that got me thinking in this direction. Well that and the decades long history of Bengal players only playing well for a new head coach for a short time.

Think about how often we've seen Bengal players turn it on after getting a head coach fired, only to fall back into the comfortable normality of playing for a paycheck, commercial endorsments, or preparing themselves for the ultimate prize of any Bengal player. The announcers gig.

If you're right about players no longer buying into Marvins plan and have now tuned him out....then fire the players.

Frankly, I've grown tired of the players getting off easy, and if this team is going to be broken up I'd give Marvin a list containing just one untradable player, Carson Palmer, and tell him to do as he wished with the rest of the roster. And if that means a total rebuild I'd give him the time he needed to get the job done.

[volcom69]

Im not saying Marvin is to blame in all of this the players themselves have to be in the right position to make plays and they have to be the one to tackle, but this is Marvins team right so he brings in players releses players ect. Hes the one who decided to go into the game yesterday with only 4 linebackers and well see what happened. I dont know if the guys quite on Marvin and his plan to turn things around i dont know, but there is not a leader on this team, and if there was i would except them to speak up and get the guys fired up to play, but i just dont see that here. So like i said u have to blame Marvin for most of whats happining, but who cares this is the bengals right 8-8 will always be good enough just so they dont have a loosing season, Marvin will always be looked at the guy who turned the bengals around. Some point enough is enough im not calling for his head right now i wanna see what happens now after all this has happened.

[HoosierCat]

Do the players share any responsibility for the lack of discipline that has resulted in everything from blown assignments to blown breathalizer tests? Is Marvin to blame for everything?

Where, exactly, did I absolve the players of any responsibility? As usual with this team, there's plenty of blame to go around.

[HairOnFire]

Im not saying Marvin is to blame in all of this the players themselves have to be in the right position to make plays and they have to be the one to tackle, but this is Marvins team right so he brings in players releses players ect. Hes the one who decided to go into the game yesterday with only 4 linebackers and well see what happened.

What happened was the same thing that happened when this team played the Patriots before. The Bengals were soundly beaten by a much better team. The only difference is nobody gave the Bengals any chance this year, largely due to the injuries....and the fact that the Patriots are improved.

It's funny how often people will agree that Marvin shouldn't be held accountable for things he can't control....only to conclude that he's ultimately responsible for everything.

[volcom69]

Ok then who do we blame each and every player on this team, and once again ill bring up the leader point who on this team is a leader and will step up and speak in front of the team. I always hear team players calling meetings things like this, but i never hear that here and why is that because this team lacks leadership and maturity. This team always seems to fall apart when something bad happens so who on this team will pick them up when things are down and tell them not to give up things like that.

[chandon]

Ok then who do we blame each and every player on this team, and once again ill bring up the leader point who on this team is a leader and will step up and speak in front of the team. I always hear team players calling meetings things like this, but i never hear that here and why is that because this team lacks leadership and maturity. This team always seems to fall apart when something bad happens so who on this team will pick them up when things are down and tell them not to give up things like that.

I agree with this point of view. I'm only a relative newcomer as a Bengals fan ( last 2 years ), and I'm a Brit living in the UK. But if you look at the successful soccer teams in the UK, you will find a very strong leader as a HC. The HC is responsible for all parts of a team's performance. If the team cannot play defence because of heavy injuries it smacks of an incomplete or badly assigned roster. If players are openly arguing on and off the field it smacks of dissent within the team and a lack of confidence. If players are not performing then you either have the wrong players in the wrong positions or a lack of compitance. Whatever the reason, it's down to the HC. He has to motivate the team. He has to ensure they play to their strengths and to their opponants weaknesses. He has to come down hard on people who are just not performing and can't be bothered. He also has to praise those who are trying their best and doing good things. I'd like to see what the Benglals training sessions are like. I'd take one look as the players took the field and tell you what the result was going to be. Do the players themselves take some responsibility? Sure they do. They're being paid big bucks and are so-called ' professionals'. They themselves have to decide whether they ' want it ' enough. Right now the Bengals don't. They all want to blame someone else, and will keep doing so forever until the whole season collapses. The only person who can change this attitude...and the team's performance is Marvin. It sounds like he is riled up somewhat now after Monday. We have a bye week to get things into shape. Should Marvin go? I so no...not now. But he has to now make some strong management decisions, and step up to the plate. He has to take hold of this team and bang it back into some sort of shape. Hopefully, players returning from injury should help him, but he has GOT to sort out the players and get them together as a team and motivate them.

Let's see what happens in 2 weeks, and hope for a better performance against the Chiefs. Then we can assess how the season should progress. WHO DEY? They're just a damn good football team with excellent potential...and I will always be a Bengal!!

Chandon

[agreen_112]

I don't know what to think about Marv anymore. What has he really done for this team? If we don't make the playoffs this season, then I'll officially sign on to the fire Marv bandwaggon.

[damiancasey]

I'm not ready to throw ML under the bus - no he isn't perfect but every coach makes some poor decisions. The bad decision ML made was taking a calculated risk by drafting questionable character guys. He paid for it and I think he learned a hard and fast lesson.

I think that injuries are the 100 lb gorilla that are messing with this teams mojo. Injuries have desimated the roster - true - but I think that is also the root cause of a lot of the emotional turmoil and instability. You can say that a good coach and strong leadership should be able to compensate for this but the amount of injuries we've had is truly extraordinary and would be very tough to weather on ANY team - even the Pats.

The question I've been asking myself is - why the hell have we gotten so many injuries? Is it truly an anomoly? Or is this a result of a deficiency we have with strength and conditioning? Team physician? Sopmething else? Anyone have any thoughts on this? Am I barking up the wrong tree?

[chandon]

I'm not ready to throw ML under the bus - no he isn't perfect but every coach makes some poor decisions. The bad decision ML made was taking a calculated risk by drafting questionable character guys. He paid for it and I think he learned a hard and fast lesson.

I think that injuries are the 100 lb gorilla that are messing with this teams mojo. Injuries have desimated the roster - true - but I think that is also the root cause of a lot of the emotional turmoil and instability. You can say that a good coach and strong leadership should be able to compensate for this but the amount of injuries we've had is truly extraordinary and would be very tough to weather on ANY team - even the Pats.

The question I've been asking myself is - why the hell have we gotten so many injuries? Is it truly an anomoly? Or is this a result of a deficiency we have with strength and conditioning? Team physician? Sopmething else? Anyone have any thoughts on this? Am I barking up the wrong tree?

I think it's a good question. In soccer here in the UK, a series of injuries hitting a number of players within the team would seem to suggest a training regime more directed towards plays and tactics rather than fitness, stamina and the physical aspects. Usually, the fitter the players are the better they are to withstand injuries and the quicker to recover from those injuries. This would fit in to the picture of an unhappy team who doesn't really want to put in 100% to their training, and weak management leading that training. But who knows? They do say however, if you don't put it in...you won't get it out. Or was that my wife...........

[HoosierCat]

I think that injuries are the 100 lb gorilla that are messing with this teams mojo. Injuries have desimated the roster - true - but I think that is also the root cause of a lot of the emotional turmoil and instability. You can say that a good coach and strong leadership should be able to compensate for this but the amount of injuries we've had is truly extraordinary and would be very tough to weather on ANY team - even the Pats.

That's true up to a point, but the fact remains that the team's discipline problems predate the current spate of injuries. As Peter King notes in Hobson's story on bengals.com today, "When I visited with Marvin this year at training camp, you could tell in his voice that he was tired when he talked about the maturity of his team."

I'm not ready to throw ML under the bus either, but he needs to find a way to get through to these guys -- or find new guys who will listen.

As for the strength & conditioning program, who knows? The team's med staff has been the butt of jokes forever, but the s&c program was overhauled when Marvin took over and from 2003 through 2005 we didn't have anything like the injury issues of the last two years. And a lot of the injuries can be explained as due to freak circumstances (Pollack, Chris Perry) or age/wear and tear catching up with guys (Anderson). Now, when you start seeing a lot of things like hamstrings and groin pulls and achilles tears...then you have to wonder if the s&c program needs to put less emphasis on strength and more on stretching and flexibility, especially in pre-practice and pre-game warmups.

[Bengals1]

And a lot of the injuries can be explained as due to freak circumstances (Pollack, Chris Perry) or age/wear and tear catching up with guys (Anderson).

My understanding is that Perry was misdiagnosed by our "crack" medical staff and lost several months rehabilitation due to their mistake. Levi complained about the same thing this summer.

SoP is notoriously cheap, you'd think he'd break open his piggy bank and hire some doctors that would keep his high dollar players healthy so he could get a decent return on his investment, huh?

[The PatternMaster]

Few things...

Injuries are a part of the game, the physical nature of the game dictates that there will be injuries. There's nothing you can do to prevent them, you just have to be prepared for them when they happen.

Marvin and Chad have a good relationship and the players do respect Marvin. We do need more mature impact players but those guys don't grow on trees so we have no choice but to develop our own which is a process. This season took a turn for the worst in Cleveland and that is were Chad once again showed that he was more concerned with doing his own thing than winning.

Chad's antics were cool when this team was struggling for an identity and needed buzz, but those days are gone and it's become a distraction. They aren't necessary and they only benefit Chad, which is a problem when playing the ultimate team sport that is football.

[HoosierCat]

My understanding is that Perry was misdiagnosed by our "crack" medical staff and lost several months rehabilitation due to their mistake. Levi complained about the same thing this summer.

Re Perry, not that I know of. You may be thinking back to the whole sports hernia issue from his first year. But the current injury happened when he took a hit that almost snapped his leg in half.

[Bengals1]

My understanding is that Perry was misdiagnosed by our "crack" medical staff and lost several months rehabilitation due to their mistake. Levi complained about the same thing this summer.

Re Perry, not that I know of. You may be thinking back to the whole sports hernia issue from his first year. But the current injury happened when he took a hit that almost snapped his leg in half.

I could be running two different occurences into one story but I do seem to recall that Perry complained sometime around last Feb or March that he lost valuable rehabilitating time because the Bengals staff had misdiagnosed his leg aliment. Or that because thier original diagnoses was wrong he delayed having surgery on it which further delayed his rehabilitation of it.

Or I could be full of sh*t.

Somebody here with a better memory ought to know what I'm talking about.

[HairOnFire]

I'm not ready to throw ML under the bus either, but he needs to find a way to get through to these guys -- or find new guys who will listen.

Yup.

And what better way to send a message that everyone will hear than.....trade Chad