Keiwan Ratliff Cut!!

[kingwilly]

Marvin needs to salvage this season any way he can...if not, there wll be a loud cry for change.

Anyone who calls for Marvin Lewis to resign or be replaced after this season, even if it is a losing season, is retarded. This team has been decimated by injuries (Pollack, Willie, Kenny Irons, etc.) and legal troubles (Cheech and Odell). How can you really expect Marvin Lewis to go 14-2 with all this stuff?

If you choose to say, "Blah blah blah I don't care. It's year five and we should win," then you are a moron who is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Oh, and I want to win just as much as you. I'm just not about to undercut the best thing that's ever happened to this franchise because of one injury-plagued, legally troubled, losing season.

I'm right there with you - I think Marvin is the best thing to happen to the orange and black in a long time - however - two things don't sit well with me 1) Bres - he's never - ever created an elite defense. He's put together an adequate defense at times but not elite. 2) I still feel like Mike Brown is getting more involved than he should from time to time. He's like Schleprock - everything he touches turns to akili, klingler, shula

You guys can look the other way as much as you want but the fact remains that ML is the head coach and the results are the bottom line.

If you want to blame someone other than ML for his selection of character issue players, then I'd like to hear who you hold responsibe as I think that is the single most contributing factor to the problems with this team right now. It is simple, guys who are bad seeds get into trouble and cost the team a spot that could have gone to a good seed. Further, when a bad seed must sit a guy who may not be as talented must step up. Now toss in the injuries that most teams will experience and you get a bunch of 2nd and 3rd stringers starting at critical positions (Holt, Caleb, Dhani Jones, Koostra, etc.)

I agree that this team has improved since he has arrived but it is clear that the risks he took drafting players like Odell, Nicholson, Askew and Cheech have cost the team. The FA's he brought in are players that have mostly gone to the scrap heap and have not gone to play elsewhere in the NFL, which means they came here via ML for a final paycheck a la Kim Herring and Anthony Mitchell.

Top this off with some clear mis-management issues and you get a guy who is slowly inching his balls over to the vice.

At some point all the distractons and un-realized potentials catch up. To me, that point was the fourth quarter of the cleveland game.

[The PatternMaster]

Marvin needs to salvage this season any way he can...if not, there wll be a loud cry for change.

Anyone who calls for Marvin Lewis to resign or be replaced after this season, even if it is a losing season, is retarded. This team has been decimated by injuries (Pollack, Willie, Kenny Irons, etc.) and legal troubles (Cheech and Odell). How can you really expect Marvin Lewis to go 14-2 with all this stuff?

If you choose to say, "Blah blah blah I don't care. It's year five and we should win," then you are a moron who is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Oh, and I want to win just as much as you. I'm just not about to undercut the best thing that's ever happened to this franchise because of one injury-plagued, legally troubled, losing season.

I'm right there with you - I think Marvin is the best thing to happen to the orange and black in a long time - however - two things don't sit well with me 1) Bres - he's never - ever created an elite defense. He's put together an adequate defense at times but not elite. 2) I still feel like Mike Brown is getting more involved than he should from time to time. He's like Schleprock - everything he touches turns to akili, klingler, shula

You guys can look the other way as much as you want but the fact remains that ML is the head coach and the results are the bottom line.

If you want to blame someone other than ML for his selection of character issue players, then I'd like to hear who you hold responsibe as I think that is the single most contributing factor to the problems with this team right now. It is simple, guys who are bad seeds get into trouble and cost the team a spot that could have gone to a good seed. Further, when a bad seed must sit a guy who may not be as talented must step up. Now toss in the injuries that most teams will experience and you get a bunch of 2nd and 3rd stringers starting at critical positions (Holt, Caleb, Dhani Jones, Koostra, etc.)

I agree that this team has improved since he has arrived but it is clear that the risks he took drafting players like Odell, Nicholson, Askew and Cheech have cost the team. The FA's he brought in are players that have mostly gone to the scrap heap and have not gone to play elsewhere in the NFL, which means they came here via ML for a final paycheck a la Kim Herring and Anthony Mitchell.

Top this off with some clear mis-management issues and you get a guy who is slowly inching his balls over to the vice.

At some point all the distractons and un-realized potentials catch up. To me, that point was the fourth quarter of the cleveland game.

I would say Mike Brown has more say as to who gets drafted than Marvin. Brown has stated many times that he believes in giving players second chances just his paw-paw did and that is why he takes chances on character risk. From the type of person Marvin seems to be guys like Pollack, L.Johnson, Thornton, Palmer, Kelley, and Hall are his type of players. Talented guys who have their head screwed on right.

When it comes to the draft it's a committee process in which the coaches(Marv & Co.), the scouts(da Tobin boyz & Co. ), and the front office(MB & co.) all have a say. Why people want to blame Marvin for everything that goes wrong is beyond me, but I'll chalk it up to ignorance.

[HairOnFire]

You guys can look the other way as much as you want but the fact remains that ML is the head coach and the results are the bottom line.

Fair enough, but anyone who ignores the factors that resulted in the bottom line is willingly basing their judgement on ignorance. (Sorry, I'm not trying to be insulting, but there's no way to sweet talk it.)

And fans who point to the staggering number of injuries suffered by this team aren't simply saying blah, blah, blah. They're pointing out things that matter. And if you've grown tired of hearing it, well....so what?

[AMC]

This move is also made in anticipation of Ethan Kilmer coming back....They may use him as a CB/S combo and you know his value on STs.....

Kilmer = KK X 10.....

[TJJackson]

Kilmer = Reggie Myles Jr

Look to the left!

[Walrus]

Oh, and I want to win just as much as you. I'm just not about to undercut the best thing that's ever happened to this franchise because of one injury-plagued, legally troubled, losing season.

A valid excuse for '06 but the question is what happens if Dec '07 brings us another 8-8 or losing record?

I'm just sayin'. It's not "one" season we're talking about anymore. Marvin should've been ready for this.

For the record, I'm not calling for Marvin's head either but I will call a spade a spade. He has not had success yet as the Bengals HC.

[HoosierCat]

And fans who point to the staggering number of injuries suffered by this team aren't simply saying blah, blah, blah. They're pointing out things that matter.

True. But even so, the injury issue is beside the point. Almost certainly, Marvin would be doing better if all the injured guys were healthy and all the suspended guys back. But so would virtually any competent head coach. With such a loaded squad, it's hard to believe that only Marvin Lewis could get the Bengals back to the playoffs.

The real issue is, why do things keep falling apart on a frustratingly regular basis? Why does a four-year LB like Caleb Miller not know where he's supposed to be when thrown in in an emergency, yet a four-day LB like Dhani Jones steps in and looks great? Why does technique and discipline break down every few games? Why are we hearing the same excuses for poor performance in year 5 that we heard in year 1? Why has this team crumbled in three of the past four Decembers with the playoffs on the line? Why, in year five, is the team (as Hobson puts it) the "Cincinnati Gumps"? That we never know what we'll get?

That's where the coaching question comes up for me.

[Bengals1]

The real issue is, why do things keep falling apart on a frustratingly regular basis? Why does a four-year LB like Caleb Miller not know where he's supposed to be when thrown in in an emergency, yet a four-day LB like Dhani Jones steps in and looks great? Why does technique and discipline break down every few games? Why are we hearing the same excuses for poor performance in year 5 that we heard in year 1? Why has this team crumbled in three of the past four Decembers with the playoffs on the line? Why, in year five, is the team (as Hobson puts it) the "Cincinnati Gumps"? That we never know what we'll get?

Thank you Hoosier, thank you so very much! I left another board similar to this one for asking those exact same kinds of questions and being labled a "pessimist" all the time.

Those are not rhetorical questions kittie fans, those are hard questions that someone who has access to Marvin Lewis needs to ask and they need to keep asking them until he or someone else from this franchise finally answers them!

[HairOnFire]

And fans who point to the staggering number of injuries suffered by this team aren't simply saying blah, blah, blah. They're pointing out things that matter.

True. But even so, the injury issue is beside the point. Almost certainly, Marvin would be doing better if all the injured guys were healthy and all the suspended guys back. But so would virtually any competent head coach. With such a loaded squad, it's hard to believe that only Marvin Lewis could get the Bengals back to the playoffs.

If they're loaded then why did you predict they'd likely miss the playoffs even before the season began? And if they're loaded then why have you spent months writing a series of posts about the importance of the mounting injuries?

When you did the above were you missing the point...as you now claim?

[The PatternMaster]

The real issue is, why do things keep falling apart on a frustratingly regular basis? Why does a four-year LB like Caleb Miller not know where he's supposed to be when thrown in in an emergency, yet a four-day LB like Dhani Jones steps in and looks great? Why does technique and discipline break down every few games? Why are we hearing the same excuses for poor performance in year 5 that we heard in year 1? Why has this team crumbled in three of the past four Decembers with the playoffs on the line? Why, in year five, is the team (as Hobson puts it) the "Cincinnati Gumps"? That we never know what we'll get?

Thank you Hoosier, thank you so very much! I left another board similar to this one for asking those exact same kinds of questions and being labled a "pessimist" all the time.

Those are not rhetorical questions kittie fans, those are hard questions that someone who has access to Marvin Lewis needs to ask and they need to keep asking them until he or someone else from this franchise finally answers them!

I doubt you would be able to understand the answers..

Sorry I couldn't resist.

[HoosierCat]

If they're loaded then why did you predict they'd likely miss the playoffs even before the season began? And if they're loaded then why have you spent months writing a series of posts about the importance of the mounting injuries?

When you did the above were you missing the point...as you now claim?

No, I didn't think they'd make the playoffs because they were too beat up. I never said anything about Marvin Lewis' coaching ability. As I said before, that's a separate issue. "Injuries" don't explain why Caleb doesn't know where he's supposed to be after four years. "Injuries" doesn't explain continued December collapses. "Injuries" don't explain continued breakdowns in discipline.

[Bengals1]

The real issue is, why do things keep falling apart on a frustratingly regular basis? Why does a four-year LB like Caleb Miller not know where he's supposed to be when thrown in in an emergency, yet a four-day LB like Dhani Jones steps in and looks great? Why does technique and discipline break down every few games? Why are we hearing the same excuses for poor performance in year 5 that we heard in year 1? Why has this team crumbled in three of the past four Decembers with the playoffs on the line? Why, in year five, is the team (as Hobson puts it) the "Cincinnati Gumps"? That we never know what we'll get?

Thank you Hoosier, thank you so very much! I left another board similar to this one for asking those exact same kinds of questions and being labled a "pessimist" all the time.

Those are not rhetorical questions kittie fans, those are hard questions that someone who has access to Marvin Lewis needs to ask and they need to keep asking them until he or someone else from this franchise finally answers them!

I doubt you would be able to understand the answers..

Sorry I couldn't resist.

[HairOnFire]

The real issue is, why do things keep falling apart on a frustratingly regular basis?

Have they? I'd say Marvin Lewis turned things around immediately and oversaw a rebuilding plan that suffered remarkably few setbacks in his first three seasons. And that's what makes the calls for Lewis's head all the more alarming since they began last season....at the very first hint of trouble.

To be perfectly fair, last season was hugely disappointing for any number of reasons, but mostly due to the embarrassment related to player arrests AND due to the staggering number of injuries suffered last year. (2nd most games missed by starters, right?)

[HairOnFire]

If they're loaded then why did you predict they'd likely miss the playoffs even before the season began? And if they're loaded then why have you spent months writing a series of posts about the importance of the mounting injuries?

When you did the above were you missing the point...as you now claim?

No, I didn't think they'd make the playoffs because they were too beat up. I never said anything about Marvin Lewis' coaching ability. As I said before, that's a separate issue. "Injuries" don't explain why Caleb doesn't know where he's supposed to be after four years.

No, they're not seperate issues...as you've already admitted when you agreed that the Bengals would be a far better team if so many of it's important players weren't injured. And we need look no further for proof of that than your Caleb Miller example...as Miller is a longtime backup who only starts when several other superior players are injured.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Marvin needs to salvage this season any way he can...if not, there wll be a loud cry for change.

Anyone who calls for Marvin Lewis to resign or be replaced after this season, even if it is a losing season, is retarded. This team has been decimated by injuries (Pollack, Willie, Kenny Irons, etc.) and legal troubles (Cheech and Odell). How can you really expect Marvin Lewis to go 14-2 with all this stuff?

If you choose to say, "Blah blah blah I don't care. It's year five and we should win," then you are a moron who is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Oh, and I want to win just as much as you. I'm just not about to undercut the best thing that's ever happened to this franchise because of one injury-plagued, legally troubled, losing season.

Maybe Marv shouldn't draft criminal morons and RB's in the 1st and 2nd rounds every year, and over-pay washed up guys like Willie Anderson, Justin Smith Bryan Robinson, Dexter Jackson and Reggie Kelly, and leave no room to add younger, cheaper, better or similarly productive players.

Take the easy road - that's the Mike Brown way.

Meanwhile the Pats, Colts, Steelers and Ravens just reload through the draft and wisely through Free Agency as-needed every year, and end up in the playoffs while the Bengals are at home watching re-runs of Chad's end zone frolics.

We have a RT who looks like he's pregnant with sextuplets and is cripped - yeah let's give him a big extension and bench the other guy for the first 3 games after we give him a $40 mil deal.

Woo hoo quality franchise moves there boys. Marvin's a freakin genius.

If you think Marvin Lewis is the "best thing that ever happened to this franchise," you must a teenager.

I don't want to see the guy fired or fail - I just want to see him win games and I'm sick of the injury excuses every single year.

Why is it necessary for the hot heads on here to call other people morons and idiots because they don't agree with their opinion?

Is Marvin Lewis your secret man lover?

[The PatternMaster]

If they're loaded then why did you predict they'd likely miss the playoffs even before the season began? And if they're loaded then why have you spent months writing a series of posts about the importance of the mounting injuries?

When you did the above were you missing the point...as you now claim?

No, I didn't think they'd make the playoffs because they were too beat up. I never said anything about Marvin Lewis' coaching ability. As I said before, that's a separate issue. "Injuries" don't explain why Caleb doesn't know where he's supposed to be after four years. "Injuries" doesn't explain continued December collapses. "Injuries" don't explain continued breakdowns in discipline.

well if we didn't have the injuries then Caleb would be on the bench, he's a good st player not so much of a every down player.

[HairOnFire]

Why is it necessary for the hot heads on here to call other people morons and idiots because they don't agree with their opinion?

I'm betting it's got nothing to do with message boards. In fact, I'm guessing it happens to you everywhere you go in the real world.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

If they're loaded then why did you predict they'd likely miss the playoffs even before the season began? And if they're loaded then why have you spent months writing a series of posts about the importance of the mounting injuries?

When you did the above were you missing the point...as you now claim?

No, I didn't think they'd make the playoffs because they were too beat up. I never said anything about Marvin Lewis' coaching ability. As I said before, that's a separate issue. "Injuries" don't explain why Caleb doesn't know where he's supposed to be after four years.

No, they're not seperate issues...as you've already admitted when you agreed that the Bengals would be a far better team if so many of it's important players weren't injured. And we need look no further for proof of that than your Caleb Miller example...as Miller is a longtime backup who only starts when several other superior players are injured.

So we should expect that, once Brooks, Henry, and Jeanty come back - they're set for the playoffs right? Or did the entire season ride on Eric Henderson and Kenny Irons?

I guess I'm not understanding how all these "devastating" injuries have changed things so much. The offense is doing fine, good enough to win, the defense, I'm guesing, won't be remarkably better with Brooks and Jeanty - but I will allow for that possibility - just not counting on it.

They were good for 4 weeks last year, I suspect the same this year with the same talent.

[HoosierCat]

No, they're not seperate issues...as you've already admitted when you agreed that the Bengals would be a far better team if so many of it's important players weren't injured.

No, I said they'd be a far better team under any head coach without all the injuries and suspensions. You can't coach up injuries. You can, however, coach up discipline and technique and knowing your assignments, and all the other things that we regularly see and hear are wrong with the team.

Injuries are a separate issue because marvin cant do anything about them. He can -- and is expected to -- do something about the other things, however. Yet year after year, those problems reappear.

[HoosierCat]

The real issue is, why do things keep falling apart on a frustratingly regular basis?

Have they? I'd say Marvin Lewis turned things around immediately and oversaw a rebuilding plan that suffered remarkably few setbacks in his first three seasons.

Remarkably few, perhaps. But also remarkably critical. The Arizona and Cleveland losses in 2003. The loss to the Bills at the end of 2004. The locker room meltdown that arguably cost us the 2005 Wild Card game. The last three games of last season. Cleveland, the week before last. These were all key moments: either in the playoffs, with the playoffs on the line, or a chance to beat a weaker team and take control of their fate. All places you can strongly argue that coaching was key. And all places where they stumbled.

And that's what makes the calls for Lewis's head all the more alarming since they began last season....at the very first hint of trouble.

I think the poor start this season was certainly a trigger for the criticism, but I'd say what you see now is just the bubbling to the surface of something that's been building since since, oh, about January of 2005 and that Wild Card loss.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Why is it necessary for the hot heads on here to call other people morons and idiots because they don't agree with their opinion?

I'm betting it's got nothing to do with message boards. In fact, I'm guessing it happens to you everywhere you go in the real world.

Yawn

[HairOnFire]

No, they're not seperate issues...as you've already admitted when you agreed that the Bengals would be a far better team if so many of it's important players weren't injured.

No, I said they'd be a far better team under any head coach without all the injuries and suspensions. You can't coach up injuries. You can, however, coach up discipline and technique and knowing your assignments, and all the other things that we regularly see and hear are wrong with the team.

You don't coach up perennial longtime backups like Caleb Miller into starters. All you can do is pencil them into the starting lineup when circumstances demand it. Why you'd expect perfect technique, discipline, and full knowledge of his assignments from a player that has never been trusted with more than backup duty and role playing is beyond me.

And along those same lines why should anyone be suprised when aging veteran players like Dhani Jones and Lemar Marshall show up and perform reasonably well. Both players have prolonged experience as starters. The real question is if this team should have built around those types of players as opposed to the young players who are currently dinged.

[HoosierCat]

Why you'd expect perfect technique, discipline, and full knowledge of his assignments from a player that has never been trusted with more than backup duty and role playing is beyond me.

Straw man. Where did I demand perfection? All I asked is that a third-round pick with four years in the system look better than a sixth-round pick with four days in it. That doesn't seem to be asking a lot to me. But in any event, Caleb was hardly the only alleged vet out there two Sundays ago who looked like he didn't know his a$$ from his elbow. Yet a week later in Seattle and Poof! they look far better. Again, why the frustratingly regular breakdowns? Why the Gumps?

[HairOnFire]

Why you'd expect perfect technique, discipline, and full knowledge of his assignments from a player that has never been trusted with more than backup duty and role playing is beyond me.

Straw man. Where did I demand perfection?

You're right, you are making a strawman argument...as well as hiding behind semantics. But no matter, let's move forward as if I hadn't included the word "perfect" in my response. So what makes you think a 4-year veteran player that has never seriously been considered for any starting LB role is capable of "competently" filling that role under less than ideal conditions?

Bottom Line: Injuries matter, and arguing that they impact Marvin Lewis in exactly the same way as they do for all head coaches is a blatant strawman argument of YOUR own making.

[HoosierCat]

Bottom Line: Injuries matter, and arguing that they impact Marvin Lewis in exactly the same way as they do for all head coaches is a blatant strawman argument of YOUR own making.

It might be, had I ever argued that. In fact, I said quite the opposite: that injuries aren't a consideration for Lewis or any other coach, because it isn't something they have control over. The injuries a team has, and a coach's skill, are two different issues. Unless, of course, you want to argue that a skilled coach should be able to overcome -- or at least coach around -- injuries, but I don't think that line of reasoning advances your position very far.