Defense sucks again!

[HoosierCat]

So that's the core of our pass defense: DEs Smith and Geathers are great pass rushers, and the DTs get enough push to help out. We've invested a lot in CBs, they're really not bad. Dexter is pretty good. Madieu is good. They may be injured throughout their careers - but they're not injured NOW, and the D sucked with them too. We have more than enough talent to be a top 10-15 passing defense. There is absolutely no excuse for not being that, other than the fact that the schemes are a joke.

Well, we lost Dex early last night and Nduke got chewed up pretty good filling in for him. And while I agree our CBs have talent, outside of O'Neal they're raw -- and we know Deltha's consistency issues.

As to the scheme, yeah, I would like to see more guys committed up front and more man-to-man in the secondary...but given the talent level I think we just trade this "slow death defense" for one in which we make more stops, but also get burned by more big plays.

That would, at least, get the offense back on the field faster. And frankly, our offense is our best defense. The less the D is on the field the better.

[GapControl]

This is what I am preaching to you all. The scheme is asking too much of FA fillers and young draft picks. You can`t ask a guy to learn every position at LB or every position on the Dline. And it is always said that CB is the most comparable in technique to QB.

You just don`t need to ask Madieu to be a corner AND a safety. You don`t need Hartwell or Johnson playing 3 spots in the LBs.

This is really overemphasing depth. Just let the guy play one position and call it a day. I really am starting to believe Marvin has some blue print for the "New Age" Defense where every play can act interchangeably regardless of position.

It isn`t working.

[HoosierCat]

Stop making excuses for everyone!

I'm not making excuses for anyone, just stating the facts. And even you can't actually disagree with me, though you try.

JJoe and Hall "should be immediate impact types"? Yeah, but they haven't been so far this year, right?

Brooks "should not be struggling like he is"? Yeah, but he is struggling, right?

In one breath you talk about the alleged deep tackle rotation, only to say in the next that the best DT we have is a second-year, 4th round pick.

And we both appear to agree that the LB corps is mostly junk.

Fanene? Rucker? Cmon! Fanene had one half-decent game and Rucker might not even make the final 53.

For me, it comes down to a combination of bad luck (like Pollack), bad draft strategy (ignore the d-line forever), bad behavior (Odell), and bad FA strategy (spend on a bunch of bargain-bin guys vs. one impact player).

[HoosierCat]

You just don`t need to ask Madieu to be a corner AND a safety. You don`t need Hartwell or Johnson playing 3 spots in the LBs.

This is really overemphasing depth. Just let the guy play one position and call it a day. I really am starting to believe Marvin has some blue print for the "New Age" Defense where every play can act interchangeably regardless of position.

A-freakin'-men.

[The PatternMaster]

Note to all Chicken Little's:

The sky is not falling, last night was a PRE-SEASON game which means that the defense was vanilla, starters who would play didn't(Geathers & Jackson). Also we had a 7th round pick in at SS, he was exposed for what he was a late 7th round pick who routinely gets lost in coverage. Maybe Hobson will wait until next years 7th round pick actually makes the team before he annoints him the next __________.

On the bright side I thought Ahmed Brooks played well, he didn't over run many plays and showed his athletic ability a few times, he's going to be special once the light bulb turns on.

I hope after last nights performance White or Busing gets more opportunities to show what they can do at backup SS cause Ndukwe isn't ready and should be used as a ST player at this point in his career, he truly was lost in coverage and was picked apart by journeyman qb's, he can't be TRUSTED to make plays, imo.

The d-line looked solid, Myers, Thornton, Smith, and Allen all made some plays. Peko has to focus on tackling, but besides that they looked pretty good.

Leon Hall has made 0 plays, I hope he's saving it for the regular season.

Did Keiwan get beat for a first down by a Japanese guy, they should have left his ass in Atl after that one.

[membengal]

Pattern...even in a "vanilla" D, they have to be able to cover someone. Anyone. Even for a little.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Well, we lost Dex early last night and Nduke got chewed up pretty good filling in for him. And while I agree our CBs have talent, outside of O'Neal they're raw -- and we know Deltha's consistency issues.

As to the scheme, yeah, I would like to see more guys committed up front and more man-to-man in the secondary...but given the talent level I think we just trade this "slow death defense" for one in which we make more stops, but also get burned by more big plays.

That would, at least, get the offense back on the field faster. And frankly, our offense is our best defense. The less the D is on the field the better.

Yeah, Dookie could have played better - but on that TD where they threaded the CB/S gap, unless Dookie was completely out of position, that's a TD no matter who the S was. Still not sure where the fault lies on that one.

In any event, with everyone healthy I think we have the talent for a middle-of-the-road D. We're playing like a bottom-5 D even with people healthy.

Agree on the nature of the 'slow death' defense. I get his philosophy - make teams string together strong drives - but it has two major flaws. First, your D is exhausted by the 4th quarter because they're always on the field. Second, it doesn't work against good, ball-control offenses who are good at moving the chains. You know, playoff teams. Like when Manning took the 10-yard underneath routes we were giving him all damned night long.

At this point...I'm with you, I'm ready to roll the dice with a gambling defense. We know this crap ain't working.

To PatternMaster - like I said in an earlier post, all we play is vanilla defense anyway. I don't think we're seeing any new, clever scheme in 2 weeks that we didn't see tonight. Note that the pass rush wasn't the problem (Geathers being out), and even accounting for Dookie not playing well, there were still major problems in pass coverage like usual.

So my prediction for this year is a bottom-8 defense, top 10 offense again. With our schedule/division/conference, that's not a good thing.

[bengalskyspy]

I thought the D-line looked pretty good last night and have looked solid all pre-season. I was particularly impressed and surprised by Michael Myers who was very quick off the snap for a big guy. He will be a good as a back-up to Peko. Havent seen anything much from the DB's, so that is an area of concern.

I will not panic yet about this defense. They showed flashes last year that they can be a shut down defense, and they have only added more talent and experience to the mix. Am I anxious? Hell yes! They clearly have not inspired anything close to confidence during this preseason.

We will simply have to wait and see if the the defensive scheme is a bit more aggressive when the bullets start to fly.

[Walrus]

Pattern...even in a "vanilla" D, they have to be able to cover someone. Anyone. Even for a little.

No doubt. Our players/scheme/whatever give Vanilla a bad name. Vanilla should be suing them for defamation of character. Honestly, vanilla means nothing fancy but it doesn't mean ineffectual. Our vanilla D is more like an ice cream scoop of mashed potatoes.

[HoosierCat]

In any event, with everyone healthy I think we have the talent for a middle-of-the-road D.

You may be right -- but it's also going to depend on guys like Hall and Brooks translating all their alleged potential into reality.

So my prediction for this year is a bottom-8 defense, top 10 offense again. With our schedule/division/conference, that's not a good thing.

Yup. If we're going back to the postseason, it'll be up to the O to get us there.

[scxeezy]

What happened to the defense we had about 2 years ago where 1) they might not be able to stop you, and 2) they might give up the big play, but at least 3) they were able to tip a lot of balls up in the air to create a lot of turn-overs (esp. in crucial moments)? Now we just have 2 out of the three.

[CarsonCity]

I just don't understand how the Bengals can drop 7 guys (8 if you count the DLman who dropped back 4 yards to cover nobody) into coverage and still leave a "receiver" (and I use that term loosely as ATL doesn't have much of one, other than Joe Horn) wide open in the end zone. If you're conceding no pressure on the QB by rushing only 3 guys, you have to blanket any potential receiver. I know it's only preseason, but I can't even remember how many times I saw this exact scenario play out last year: rush 3 guys? check; give the QB 6 seconds to throw? check; still manage to leave a receiver open? check; long completion? check. It gets old. Real old.

[membengal]

Exactly CarsonCity, exactly.

How in the hell can guys be running so f**king wide open? How? Like, 20 yards open kind of stuff? What the f**k is that all about?

[kingwilly]

Well, I see little to no improvement from the D. Talking about "finishing", "playing fast", "trusting each other", blah, blah, blah....this is a pile of trash D.

We have taken a pass on, or simply could not attract, guys like Clemens, Trotter, Freeney, and a number of other top defensive players due to the spending mentality of the team. In effect, management has told the fans, we don't value top defensive talent unless we draft it. This, and the unlucky outcome of the Pollack and Odell situations, has contributed to make this defense a timid, poorly motivated group.

hmmm...looks like s**t, plays like s**t...must be s**t. flush it down.

[HairOnFire]

Seriously, tho, I thought they got pretty good pressure all around last night -- from the DTs, the ends and the backers -- especially considering that both Geathers and Jeanty were on the sidelines, and Dex went out early. But that only happened when they tried, when they brought some heat. When they rushed 3 or 4 and dropped everyone into coverage, they were just asking to get burnt by the long ball (and often did).

Absolutely agree. The Bengals defense opened the game very agressively, blitzing Ahmad Brooks over and over again, then quickly abandoned it midway into the Falcon's 2nd drive. After that the heat was applied sporadically. Worse, if you watch a replay of Harrington's 1st scoring pass you'll see the Bengals line up in a 4-man front, drop the LDE into pass coverage prior to the snap, have Peko and Smith run a twist before breaking off their pass rush, while Thornton breaks off his pass rush on the left. The end result was mind numbing, as no Bengal linemen seriously attempted to rush the passer. That's practically unheard of in the NFL...when have you ever seen three offensive lineman with nobody to block....and coupled with the soft zone coverage played by the secondary a perfect recipe for disaster.

Perhaps the most troubling thing about it all is how easily rattled Joey Harrington STILL seems to be when adequately pressured, but instead of attacking him with a jailbreak styled blitz the Bengals seemed far more interested in covering up weaknesses in their secondary by dropping an ever increasing number of players into pass coverage. Sadly, if you give any NFL QB enough time to throw they'll find an open receiver.

Bottom Line: If the debate is between the conservative scheme and the modest talent level....my money is on the scheme.

[jjakq27]

A little bump and run from time to time might make a difference.

I asked this awhile ago, but I thought the reason why they dumped Frazier and got Bresh was because he and Marvin were on the same page philosphically. But this certainly isn't anything close to the late-90's Ravens or the Steelers from the mid-90's

Is it personnel or scheme? Is it a case where anybody would look good if they had Ray Lewis or Kevin Greene and Greg Lloyd? I know we have no one close to that on this defense.

[kingwilly]

...The Bengals defense opened the game very agressively, blitzing Ahmad Brooks over and over again, then quickly abandoned it midway into the Falcon's 2nd drive. After that the heat was applied sporadically. Worse, if you watch a replay of Harrington's 1st scoring pass you'll see the Bengals line up in a 4-man front, drop the LDE into pass coverage prior to the snap, have Peko and Smith run a twist before breaking off their pass rush, while Thornton breaks off his pass rush on the left. The end result was mind numbing, as no Bengal linemen seriously attempted to rush the passer. That's practically unheard of in the NFL...when have you ever seen three offensive lineman with nobody to block....and coupled with the soft zone coverage played by the secondary a perfect recipe for disaster.

Perhaps the most troubling thing about it all is how easily rattled Joey Harrington STILL seems to be when adequately pressured, but instead of attacking him with a jailbreak styled blitz the Bengals seemed far more interested in covering up weaknesses in their secondary by dropping an ever increasing number of players into pass coverage. Sadly, if you give any NFL QB enough time to throw they'll find an open receiver.

Bottom Line: If the debate is between the conservative scheme and the modest talent level....my money is on the scheme.

Ok, I'll bite on this...

1. Opening the game strong is fine but this is about "finishing" and "playing fast"...I saw guys, as you describe, routinely taking plays off, playing slow (soft zone so as not to run too much)...F that. I am bitterly disappointed to think tat they "Can" start strong and then taper off into a shabby excuse of a professional football defense.

2. If having several seconds lets a Pro QB complete passes, then Doug Johnson would look better. The fact is, time needs to be coupled with very poor pass coverage. Deltha looks gimpy and slow...almost Tory-esque. He looks like he is playing flag football. Go for the ball!!!! Hell, drill a guy, take a PI or unecessary roughness call to set the tone. HIT A BROTHER. Show a spark, anything. Pick Harrington up and put him on his head...rattle someone.

3. When I see that for the first quarter, Harringotn was almost perfect against our 1st D this is a disaster. I hate to be a downer like this but I am pissed. The falcons are not a good team and they beat our D like a baby harp seal.

[HairOnFire]

At this point...I'm with you, I'm ready to roll the dice with a gambling defense. We know this crap ain't working.

I think it's remarkable that so many of you are able to find things to argue about when, for the most part, we're all in agreement.

For example: Hoosier and Kid Steakhouse can debate the talent level forever, but it seems obvious that they're both coming to the same negative conclusion about the scheme being far too conservative.

And there's the rub, because you can amp up the aggression whenever you want.

[HairOnFire]

We will simply have to wait and see if the the defensive scheme is a bit more aggressive when the bullets start to fly.

There it is. Dead freaking on.

[kingwilly]

At this point...I'm with you, I'm ready to roll the dice with a gambling defense. We know this crap ain't working.

I think it's remarkable that so many of you are able to find things to argue about when, for the most part, we're all in agreement.

For example: Hoosier and Kid Steakhouse can debate the talent level forever, but it seems obvious that they're both coming to the same negative conclusion about the scheme being far too conservative.

And there's the rub, because you can amp up the aggression whenever you want.

I think we are all just venting about our shared disappointment in the pathetic stat of the D. Same book, page, paragraph...down to the same word, which we all can agree is the word "Crap".

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

At this point...I'm with you, I'm ready to roll the dice with a gambling defense. We know this crap ain't working.

I think it's remarkable that so many of you are able to find things to argue about when, for the most part, we're all in agreement.

For example: Hoosier and Kid Steakhouse can debate the talent level forever, but it seems obvious that they're both coming to the same negative conclusion about the scheme being far too conservative.

And there's the rub, because you can amp up the aggression whenever you want.

Um...why did you quote my post where I'm *agreeing* with Hoosier to cite examples of people *arguing*????

Did you fat-finger the reply button again?

[HoosierCat]

And there's the rub, because you can amp up the aggression whenever you want.

And hopefully they do. Trouble is, the D we saw last night looked a hell of a lot like the D we saw last year. Now, maybe the "real" defense is locked down under double secret probation somewhere...but my money's on a continuation of things like that stupid three-man rush you pointed to. (And yeah, I was screaming WTF at my TV on that play, too.) I'll be thrilled to be wrong on this one.

[Jet23]

We will simply have to wait and see if the the defensive scheme is a bit more aggressive when the bullets start to fly.

There it is. Dead freaking on.

Marvin better have some sort of a major revelation, because he fired Frazier for being aggressive. If you can't cover a sole, you may as well send everyone. I would rather someone be wide open, because they gambled on a blitz, rather than wide open for no particular reason.

[The PatternMaster]

To PatternMaster - like I said in an earlier post, all we play is vanilla defense anyway. I don't think we're seeing any new, clever scheme in 2 weeks that we didn't see tonight. Note that the pass rush wasn't the problem (Geathers being out), and even accounting for Dookie not playing well, there were still major problems in pass coverage like usual.

So my prediction for this year is a bottom-8 defense, top 10 offense again. With our schedule/division/conference, that's not a good thing.

I was impressed by our front 4, if you add a quick body like Geathers I think we will see increased pressure from the defense. Getting pressure on the qb can make our raw young cb's look like seasoned vets. JJ was playing for the first time this pre-season and he was active, not shutting guys down like you would want, but he's getting there.

I'm not impressed with Balt's offense, if we can stop the run(which we've been doing) and get some pressure on the qb we should alright this year vs. any qb not named Manning.

I think our defense is in need of playmakers, he haven't signed any in FA and the guys we drafted to fill that role have either been too stupid or hurt to stay on the field.

At least the Broncos defense filled with Pro Bowlers and Super Bowl winners looks even worse

[HairOnFire]

At this point...I'm with you, I'm ready to roll the dice with a gambling defense. We know this crap ain't working.

I think it's remarkable that so many of you are able to find things to argue about when, for the most part, we're all in agreement.

For example: Hoosier and Kid Steakhouse can debate the talent level forever, but it seems obvious that they're both coming to the same negative conclusion about the scheme being far too conservative.

And there's the rub, because you can amp up the aggression whenever you want.

Um...why did you quote my post where I'm *agreeing* with Hoosier to cite examples of people *arguing*????

Did you fat-finger the reply button again?

Not at all. I quoted you because I agree with the points you made about "this crap ain't working....time to roll the dice with a gambling defense."

And more importantly, I think the answer to the problem is the same regardless of which side of the talent/scheme debate you find yourself on.