Willie in a Boot

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Sometimes sh*t just happens, but it could be worse, at least we aren't Cleveland.

Talk about a quote for all occasions! Oh, you're referring to *football*. Be more specific - I didn't know if you meant the burning river, the rust-belt economy, the ugly women, the absence of pride, or the utter lack of anything to do.

I'm really beginning to think those guys are cursed !!! Anyway, who can remember the last season the medical staff wasn't talked about in a poor light ?? I personally can remember having a conversation similar to this one every year that I have been on this site... It's just unacceptable for a professional sports organization to have such questions about an area so horribly important as the medical care of their players.

It's ridiculous. You have human assets that you pay $100M/yr + benefits, and more than that tied up in guaranteed contracts over the next few years. Would it *not* be worth spending a little more on good doctors who know what the hell they're doing?

For God's sake, these guys seem to have worse medical care than my PPO through work. Is this another example of Mikey's 'penny wise / pound foolish' attitude?

[BengalszoneBilly]

Talk about a quote for all occasions! Oh, you're referring to *football*. Be more specific - I didn't know if you meant the burning river, the rust-belt economy, the ugly women, the absence of pride, or the utter lack of anything to do.

At the risk of appearing to defend the City of Cleveland, they do have one place I'd like to visit there.

[HairOnFire]

At the risk of defending the Bengals medical staff....who amongst us is qualified to question their skill level? Granted, many of you blame them for failing to properly diagnose the poor quality of glass that Chris Perry is made out of, but Carson Palmer returned to play much sooner than most of you armchair doctors predicted, Tab Perry is currently fighting for the 3rd WR spot after suffering a hip injury that was thought by many to be career ending, and the very same player currently wearing a worry inducing boot, Willie Anderson, has already played several seasons after suffering an injury that had ended many careers.

BTW, the last time we had this discussion most of us agreed that the player assumes the greater responsibility for managing his own care, and should always seek out second opinions....including the opinions of specialists.

[duus]

At the risk of defending the Bengals medical staff....who amongst us is qualified to question their skill level? Granted, many of you blame them for failing to properly diagnose the poor quality of glass that Chris Perry is made out of, but Carson Palmer returned to play much sooner than most of you armchair doctors predicted, Tab Perry is currently fighting for the 3rd WR spot after suffering a hip injury that was thought by many to be career ending, and the very same player currently wearing a worry inducing boot, Willie Anderson, has already played several seasons after suffering an injury that had ended many careers.

BTW, the last time we had this discussion most of us agreed that the player assumes the greater responsibility for managing his own care, and should always seek out second opinions....including the opinions of specialists.

Agreed.

[HairOnFire]

It's ridiculous. You have human assets that you pay $100M/yr + benefits, and more than that tied up in guaranteed contracts over the next few years. Would it *not* be worth spending a little more on good doctors who know what the hell they're doing?

Are you suggesting that Willie Anderson can't afford the opinion of a specialist?

I don't know about anyone else, but if I make my living with my body I take a very active role in it's medical care. For example, the Bengals medical staff may be unanimous in their opinion of how to repair and rehab my hypothetical knee injury, but nobody could stop me from calling Dr. James Andrews for a second opinion that will almost assuredly take precedent over anything else I've been told.

More importantly, I'm almost certain that if I demand to see Dr. Andrews the Bengals will pay his bill.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

It's ridiculous. You have human assets that you pay $100M/yr + benefits, and more than that tied up in guaranteed contracts over the next few years. Would it *not* be worth spending a little more on good doctors who know what the hell they're doing?

Are you suggesting that Willie Anderson can't afford the opinion of a specialist?

I don't know about anyone else, but if I make my living with my body I take a very active role in it's medical care. For example, the Bengals medical staff may be unanimous in their opinion of how to repair and rehab my hypothetical knee injury, but nobody could stop me from calling Dr. James Andrews for a second opinion that will almost assuredly take precedent over anything else I've been told.

More importantly, I'm almost certain that if I demand to see Dr. Andrews the Bengals will pay his bill.

I know that Levi was doing much better with his own rehab staff in his hometown, and started experiencing problems as soon as it was switched up when he came to Cincinnati.

So you're basically saying every time someone gets hurt, they shouldn't trust the Bengals' medical staff and should seek out others?

Yeah that speaks well of Mike Brown - just like Marvin had to bring in his own strength coaches.

[HoosierCat]

That the Bengals' med staff has lots of successes that we never hear about because, well, they're successes, is probably true. As any writer or journalist will tell you, you don't get many calls from people praising you for spelling their name right.

That said, there's a pattern of less-than-competence here that's disturbing. Yes, Carson had an awesome recovery -- but he did that in California under the supervision of his own docs, not the Bengals med staff. And Levi was doing fine with his own doctors. The pattern has gotten to the point where it's not even just a message board rant any more, with both Goheen in the Post and Curnutte in the Enquirer calling the Bengals on the subject.

Nor is it a new issue with the Bengals. I recall an espn.com story many years back -- I've tried to find it but been unsuccessful, it was late 90s IIRC -- that reported a survey of players done, I believe, by the union on the subject of how good they rated their team's med staff. The Bengals were dead last. Obviously things may have changed since then, but then again, maybe not.

As far as the players' responsibilities, of course they should always seek second opinions if they have doubts. But that doesn't absolve the team of the need to provide top-tier medical care.

[Bobcat Bengal]

Why do I get the feeling that when they call in the medical staff a tiny little car pulls up outside PBS and 12 clowns with big feet tumble out and rush into the locker room? UUUUGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

I was thinking the same thing.....they seem to have a re-occuring problem with mis-diagnosing injuries, or just plain failing to notice tell-tale signs of more persistent, lingering injuries.

Chris Perry, Levi Jones, and now Willie Anderson.

Damn, instead of Chcuk Breshnahan, maybe the medical staff are the ones who need replacing......

[HoosierCat]

Ah! Finally, found it. Dead last. And by a wide, wide margin.

http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2002/0912/1431170.html

Survey was done in 2000; this piece was written in '02.

Of note regarding the second opinions issue, this part is notable:

One area the union and NFL are focusing on is access to second medical opinions. Through the collective bargaining agreement, players already have the right to seek, at the team's cost, a second medical opinion. The team also must pay for any surgical procedure that a player chooses to have with an outside doctor.

But players say clubs often make it uncomfortable to request that option.

"We want to make sure there's no resistance from the coaching staff to getting a second opinions," Allen said. "We've got a provision for that but, frankly, players are often interfered with by the (team) doctor or the front office."

The story also makes a good point about how it can be tough for teams to attract good docs due to the cost of malpractice insurance:

"What if you're treating Randy Moss with his $80 million or so contract?" said Jon Browne, NFL Physicians Society president and head doctor for the Kansas City Chiefs. "There's no insurance contract that you could buy that would cover that potential liability."

[HairOnFire]

I know that Levi was doing much better with his own rehab staff in his hometown, and started experiencing problems as soon as it was switched up when he came to Cincinnati.

I'm pretty sure there will be fewer problems associated with any rehab the more conservate and less challenging it is. For all any of us know Levi Jones was going to experience some problems the moment his rehab entered a phase that actually put stress on his injury. Then again, the setback may indeed be the fault of the Bengals medical staff...as those of you who have absolutely no inside information or medical knowledge can claim.

That said, it's the same medical staff who oversaw Carson Palmer's remarkable rehab....a campaign so strenuous and so unlikely to be successful that it was written up in a cover story by a national magazine.

Frankly, you armchair doctors seem to be guilty of blatant cherry-picking. When a Bengal player actually recovers from what was once thought to be a career threatening injury the only conclusion you can reach is that the injury couldn't have been that serious in the first place. But when a serious injury isn't recovered from without any complications at all then it must be the fault of cheap Mike Brown and his hand-picked chief surgeon, Dr. Nick.

[HairOnFire]

One area the union and NFL are focusing on is access to second medical opinions. Through the collective bargaining agreement, players already have the right to seek, at the team's cost, a second medical opinion. The team also must pay for any surgical procedure that a player chooses to have with an outside doctor.

Thanks for proving my point. I know that probably wasn't your intent, but that's just a humorous bonus.

BTW, the doctor who just performed Kenny Iron's knee surgery is probably the most respected specialist in the country, and he has a very long history of performing surgery on injured Bengal players. Granted, he's not on their staff but the working relationship between the team and the specialist is well established. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's tended to the Biggest Willie in the past.

Moving on, just as a player has to take an active role in his medical treatment he has to take principle responsibility for his own rehab. So maybe some of you should keep that in mind before you carelessly trot out the name of Chris Perry as proof of anything....because he's one of very few players whose rehab work has been openly questioned by the Bengals.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I know that Levi was doing much better with his own rehab staff in his hometown, and started experiencing problems as soon as it was switched up when he came to Cincinnati.

I'm pretty sure there will be fewer problems associated with any rehab the more conservate and less challenging it is. For all any of us know Levi Jones was going to experience some problems the moment his rehab entered a phase that actually put stress on his injury. Then again, the setback may indeed be the fault of the Bengals medical staff...as those of you who have absolutely no inside information or medical knowledge can claim.

That said, it's the same medical staff who oversaw Carson Palmer's remarkable rehab....a campaign so strenuous and so unlikely to be successful that it was written up in a cover story by a national magazine.

Frankly, you armchair doctors seem to be guilty of blatant cherry-picking. When a Bengal player actually recovers from what was once thought to be a career threatening injury the only conclusion you can reach is that the injury couldn't have been that serious in the first place. But when a serious injury isn't recovered from without any complications at all then it must be the fault of cheap Mike Brown and his hand-picked chief surgeon, Dr. Nick.

But Hair, the players themselves said this years ago about the same medical staff: (which HC also mentions above)

Things that make you go hmm, again

ESPN.....survey from 2000

The Cincinnati Bengals' doctors were held in the lowest esteem, with only 19 percent of their players describing them as "good" or better. At the top were six teams -- Baltimore, Dallas, Denver, Oakland, Philadelphia and the New York Jets -- in which 100 percent of players expressed that level of confidence in their doctors.

Also, I thought Carson saw specialists outside of the Bengals' org in California for most of his rehab? In his case, Brown, if I recall correctly, or Palmer himself, actually went and got some of the best in the biz to rehab him?

I don't think it was just the Bengals' med staff they use for most injuries.

[HairOnFire]

Survey was done in 2000; this piece was written in '02.

Lot's have things have changed since 2000. In fact, I'm almost certain the Bengal's medical staff rated by the survey was replaced very shortly after Marvin Lewis was hired.

[HairOnFire]

But Hair, the players themselves said this years ago about the same medical staff: (which HC also mentions above)

Well, there's the rub because I'm pretty certain it's not the same medical staff. And if it's not then quoting the survey is a little bit like evaluating the Bengals current level of quarterbacking and then boldly decrying how much Akili Smith sucks.

Frankly, if you guys are going to demand change the least you could do is notice it when it comes.

[HairOnFire]

Also, I thought Carson saw specialists outside of the Bengals' org in California for most of his rehab? In his case, Brown, if I recall correctly, or Palmer himself, actually went and got some of the best in the biz to rehab him?

Again, thanks for proving my point for me. Players are not only able to, but responsible for obtaining second opinions, and are free to choose alternative specialists if so compelled. And considering what is at stake why wouldn't they when the team is obligated to pay for everything. As you point out, after Palmer's injury the Bengals paid the bill for the best medical care in the business, just as they did this week when Kenny Iron's knee was operated on.

Where's the penny pinching you joked about?

And you're sniffin' glue if you think the Bengals medical staff was frozen out of participating in Palmer's rehab. They were active partners that monitored the day-to-day rehab that Palmer put himself through from the moment he reported in Cincy. In fact, I'm willing to bet that from soup-to-nuts Palmer spent more time working with Bengal doctors and trainers than with outside specialists.

[HoosierCat]

But Hair, the players themselves said this years ago about the same medical staff: (which HC also mentions above)

Well, there's the rub because I'm pretty certain it's not the same medical staff. And if it's not then quoting the survey is a little bit like evaluating the Bengals current level of quarterbacking and then boldly decrying how much Akili Smith sucks.

Frankly, if you guys are going to demand change the least you could do is notice it when it comes.

Last year's media guide lists five team doctors: Angelo Colosimo, Jeff Craig, Robert Heidt Jr., Ed Jung, and Walter Timperman. Colosimo, Heidt and Timperman were all there in 2000 (and earlier). The other two I don't know about.

[HairOnFire]

Last year's media guide lists five team doctors: Angelo Colosimo, Jeff Craig, Robert Heidt Jr., Ed Jung, and Walter Timperman. Colosimo, Heidt and Timperman were all there in 2000 (and earlier). The other two I don't know about.

Well keep digging, Jimmy Olsen. The head of the Bengals medical staff when your beloved survey was done stepped down shortly after Lewis was hired. I don't recall his name but I do remember he had been with the team for more than two decades, and while he wasn't fired outright it was openly speculated that it was a forced retirement that resulted from player complaints.

Don't you remember talking about this when it happened?

[Tasher]

Well, I guess this means I am going to keep my sig the way it is FOR ANOTHER DAMN YEAR!

Crap!

[HoosierCat]

Well keep digging, Jimmy Olsen.

My, my. Touchy today, aren't we? I took you at your word (given down on the current events board) that you were focused on facts. My bad.

The head of the Bengals medical staff when your beloved survey was done stepped down shortly after Lewis was hired. I don't recall his name but I do remember he had been with the team for more than two decades, and while he wasn't fired outright it was openly speculated that it was a forced retirement that resulted from player complaints.

Don't you remember talking about this when it happened?

As a matter of fact, no.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Last year's media guide lists five team doctors: Angelo Colosimo, Jeff Craig, Robert Heidt Jr., Ed Jung, and Walter Timperman. Colosimo, Heidt and Timperman were all there in 2000 (and earlier). The other two I don't know about.

Well keep digging, Jimmy Olsen. The head of the Bengals medical staff when your beloved survey was done stepped down shortly after Lewis was hired. I don't recall his name but I do remember he had been with the team for more than two decades, and while he wasn't fired outright it was openly speculated that it was a forced retirement that resulted from player complaints.

Don't you remember talking about this when it happened?

Sooo, 3 of the 5 are still there...and you are still trying to cover Mikey's rear end?

If Willie misses the season and Levi's problem drags on throughout the year and shorten's his career, you can thank Mike Brown for once again being the worst football operations manager in the history of the world.

[HairOnFire]

You really don't remember when we talked about the Bengals longtime head doctor retiring?

C'mon, think back to those heady days when the weightroom was given a new coat of paint, when computers finally came to the city on the river, when chile and cheese was dropped from the menu and fruit and veggies were added, and when the doctor you despised, but knew nothing about, was quietly and politely shoved out the door. Think back to a now dead message board where you were still Catastrophe (Ack!) and I was either the beloved HairOnFire or the mostly disagreeable HeavySigh? Change was everywhere, and In Marvin We Trust still smelled fresh and new.

Good times.

[HairOnFire]

Sooo, 3 of the 5 are still there...and you are still trying to cover Mikey's rear end?

You can't count. When you consider the doctor who retired it's 3 out of 6, and that's a 50% turnover.

Yet somehow that still misses the point. That being, as the article Hoosier posted PROVED even in 2000 every player in the NFL had the right to seek a 2nd medical opinion and be treated by whatever doctor he chose at the teams expense. So if Willie Anderson or Levi Jones receives substandard medical treatment they're guilty of ignoring their own primary responsibility to manage their own health care.

Plus, the article Hoosier posted touched on the difficulty NFL teams had hiring the very best doctors. So it's fairly predictable, and a very smart thing to do, when teams develope a close working relationship with medical specialists. However, even a slack-jawed mouth breathing idiot should be able to discern that doing so comes at a premium, and isn't being cheap at all. It's an example of a team paying for the best medical care available.

[Bobcat Bengal]

Frankly, you armchair doctors seem to be guilty of blatant cherry-picking. When a Bengal player actually recovers from what was once thought to be a career threatening injury the only conclusion you can reach is that the injury couldn't have been that serious in the first place. But when a serious injury isn't recovered from without any complications at all then it must be the fault of cheap Mike Brown and his hand-picked chief surgeon, Dr. Nick.

"HEY EVERYBODY!!"

[whodeynation]

But Hair, the players themselves said this years ago about the same medical staff: (which HC also mentions above)

Well, there's the rub because I'm pretty certain it's not the same medical staff. And if it's not then quoting the survey is a little bit like evaluating the Bengals current level of quarterbacking and then boldly decrying how much Akili Smith sucks.

Frankly, if you guys are going to demand change the least you could do is notice it when it comes.

Last year's media guide lists five team doctors: Angelo Colosimo, Jeff Craig, Robert Heidt Jr., Ed Jung, and Walter Timperman. Colosimo, Heidt and Timperman were all there in 2000 (and earlier). The other two I don't know about.

Colosimo will tell you how great he is... He travels from exam room to exam room with a freaking enterage. I was getting treated by him for plantar facitis, and later biceps tendinitis (neither of which was actually cured). I was sitting in the waiting room when Akili Smith walked out on cruches, the monday after he blew his knee out... Colosimo was able to return him to his previous form (snicker, snicker).

If size of ego is an indication of actual talent, then Colosimo is the greatest orthopod in the freaking universe...just ask him! BUT, Carson didn't let him do the (very successful) surgery on his knee, and I recall some griping by Colosimo in the press about Carson's decision to seek a different (better) surgeon... Rumor has it Colosimo already had an operating room booked, and his PR guy on speed dial..

[BZoner]

As a follow up, I saw this article and couldn't help but see the Irony.

The "Andrews" in this case would be Shaun Andrews of the Eagles but the similarities would appear to go way beyond that.

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/200...be_serious.html

Fingers and toes are duly crossed.