Bengals Sign Hartwell - merged

[Stripes]

Whether or not he'll return to the team remains to be seen, but I thought Odell's rookie season was excellent. He was caught out of position often, but I don't think anyone expected anything else from a first year middle linebacker. He is a supremely talented player, and would have continued to improve as time passed.

Had Odell never been suspended, Ahmad Brooks would have no chance whatsoever at playing MLB (and I doubt we would have even drafted him).

[derekshank]

Whether or not he'll return to the team remains to be seen, but I thought Odell's rookie season was excellent. He was caught out of position often, but I don't think anyone expected anything else from a first year middle linebacker. He is a supremely talented player, and would have continued to improve as time passed.

Had Odell never been suspended, Ahmad Brooks would have no chance whatsoever at playing MLB (and I doubt we would have even drafted him).

Had Odell never been suspended, Ahmad Brooks wouldn't have been drafted by the Bengals. But now he has been, and is the more gifted/more reliable option.

I'll welcome Odell back as a WSLB if he gets his act together... but I have higher hopes from Brooks than I ever had from Odell.

[bengalsfansince68]

"Possibly why he made so many Int's? The QB's weren't expecting him to be so far out of position."

Wow Derek, you blew your credibility with two sentences.

It was a joke. Take it easy.

The self appointed voice of reason thing is also a joke. So again... Take it easy.

Your words came across over here as you making an incredibly dumb statement to make your point that Odell sucked as a player in '05, and when called on it you attempt to pass it off as a joke. If you in fact intended those words to be a joke, a joke that many would not perceive as a joke, perhaps you might give us a ha ha or a guffaw or a LOL or . Something

And if we are bragging about how many games from the '05 season we have on tape... I have all of them. Odell made 5 Int's... but he really hurt the running game. There is simply no denying it. Could he improve? Absolutely... but he wasn't learning very fast in '05, and had to sit down in '06, and is one mistake away from sitting down for another year.

Thanks for characterizing me as bragging about how many games I have on tape. That I have them is not the point. That I take the time to break down the plays, find out who is on the field and where they are lined up and watch for who is making the plays, is. I'd bet that I have done more filmwork on the '05 sesaon then 99% of everyone here. My conclusion is that the guy who got to the football first, more often then any other player, was Odell. Your argument that Odell really hurt the run defense and that it could not be denied is specious at best. He wasn't learning fast? The young man stepped in to the starting middle linebacker spot from the opening of camp. Teammates said that Odell made the calls and was one of the leaders of the D at the most important position on any defense. He played well enough as a rookie mlb to help us get to the playoffs. All the bitching about his rookie years stems from his f-ing up the '06 season. If he had not done that, you would not be disparaging the way he played when on the field.

Do you really think the coaching staff is going to spend all of their time training him to become a great backer when he is so unreliable? Especially when his replacement was drafted in the supplementary draft... a guy with even more potential than Odell has.

First, no coaching staff is going to spend all of their time on any one player. If we don't cut Odell, then I absolutely expect the coaches to do everything in their power to get him to the top of his game time abilities as quickly as possible. If they don't, then they should go before Odell. You also make an assumption that you can't know to be true when you say that Brooks was drafted as Odell's replacement. While it is possible that he was drafted to replace Odell, I think it is more likely that Marv hopes to combine their talents. Two playmakers is better than 1 no matter how you may wish to spin it.

The point is... this team has planned for him not to return. Every move they make indicates they aren't expecting him back. Could he ever return and eventually contribute? Sure... why not? But why put all of our hopes in a guy who wouldn't even be starting this year with the 3 backers we have? (Odell could never play SSLB - which is why he would not take Jeanty's job).

Of course they are trying to cover the possibility that he does not make it back. No one knows for sure that he will, we only have people who have completely discounted the possibility that he will. I certainly don't put all my hopes in one player. I have high hopes for everyone, Hall, JJoe, Deltha, Madieu, Jax, Marvin White,Brooks, Pollack, Nicholson, Jeanty, Hartwell, Fat Sam and very much yes, Odell! I totally disagree that an Odell at the top of his game would not start.

P.S. If you go through and read my posts, you'll find that I have forever been an optimist, not a pessimist. The Odell saga just does not bode well for those of us living in reality. He's not been heard from since he cleaned his locker out last year. Tell me... why so much hope for his return?

The phrase, "those of us living in reality ", implies that you see yourself as living in some true form of reality and anyone who sees something different is living in some "Bizzaro" reality.

Marvin has refused to address Odell since the suspension, a practice that I expect he will continue through Chris Henry's suspension. If Odell is reinstated, July 11, it will be the first time that ML will speak of Odell.

He may say that Odell doesn't get it and cut him and I'd be fine with that.

He might say that Odell will start back on special teams and if he practices hard and smart, he has a chance to get more reps and work his way up. This is the scenario I hope for!

[derekshank]

I'd bet that I have done more filmwork on the '05 sesaon then 99% of everyone here. My conclusion is that the guy who got to the football first, more often then any other player, was Odell.

Not to rain on your parade, but all you have to do is know that he led the team in tackles to know that. I defy you to find a single 4-3 defense whose MLB didn't lead the team in tackles. The 4-3 scheme funnels the ball to the MLB (I also can break down footage). So him leading the team in tackles doesn't convince me of anything except that he was the starting MLB for the Bengals in '05... something I already knew. When Landon Johnson was the MLB in '04, he also led the team in tackles. Big deal, right?

All the bitching about his rookie years stems from his f-ing up the '06 season. If he had not done that, you would not be disparaging the way he played when on the field.

Untrue. Him "f-ing up the '06 season" was merely cause for me to temper the hopes I had for his potential. I don't care enough to prove it to you by going through posts dating back almost 2 years... but I was never as enthralled with Odell's play as the masses. Did I have high hopes for his potential? Absolutely. I have no problem admitting it... but they were based mostly on athletic ability (something that Brooks has more of) and 5 plays where he made int's as a rookie. I'm not trying to take that away from him... but I have more expectations from the MLB position than 5 int's.

He wasn't learning fast? The young man stepped in to the starting middle linebacker spot from the opening of camp.

Yep. And he was nearly as raw in the '05 playoff game as he was the first game of the season. Did he learn and improve? Sure... just not as quickly as you'd like. Lofa Tatupu for instance was ahead of him in the rookie of the year campaign... not because of int's or being a superior athlete (he trailed Odell in both categories in my opinion), but because he was a true team leader who ran the defense and was rarely caught out of position. He was the better MLB as a rookie, and pretty much everyone knew it. Again... I had high hoped for Odell, but based more on an idea that he would spend the offseason in the film room learning to be disciplined - we all know how that went.

While it is possible that he was drafted to replace Odell, I think it is more likely that Marv hopes to combine their talents. Two playmakers is better than 1 no matter how you may wish to spin it.

Time will tell on Marvin's hopes... but I don't disagree with you. Our disagreement on this subject is actually fairly minimal if you think about it. You think he might come back. I doubt he will. You want him to be the starting MLB, I want him to be a WSLB in '08 after Hartwell leaves.

I have higher hopes for Brooks than Odell. Is that really enough reason to get into a pissing contest? Do you get this upset with everyone who disagrees with you, or is it just the Odell subject? I have decided not to rest my hopes on a guy who is unreliable and whose play I deem as largely over-rated. If that's enough for you to want to attempt to discredit my intelligence... fire away. But for my part... we disagree - who cares?

[bengalsfansince68]

I never said anything about tackles. I said he gets to the ball first on a wide variety of plays.

The fact that you have condensed Odell's entire season down to 5 plays indicates that you missed a lot. Odell produced far more than 5 picks! Tatupu did have a fine season but that fact does not prove your point that Odell sucked.

He did not suck!!!!!

I have to wonder why you are so high on Brooks. I too, like the physical possibilities he brings but we have only seen a few plays in a few games. Ahmad did show some playmaking ability but so did Fanene.

At this point in time, Odell has shown me more than Brooks, Fanene and Nicholson combined.

This is not about you Derek, but I find all the hate for Odell and Henry to be short-sighted.

[derekshank]

Tatupu did have a fine season but that fact does not prove your point that Odell sucked.

He did not suck!!!!!

I never said he sucked. Never. I simply said he was over-rated. I expect more from a MLB than a few high-profile plays (a different topic... but this is the same reason I see the sack stat as over-rated and why I think Justin Smith is the Bengals best player on defense).

I have to wonder why you are so high on Brooks. I too, like the physical possibilities he brings but we have only seen a few plays in a few games.

I'm high on Brooks because in the time that he played, he showed a lot more than Odell did in stopping the run and being in position. Perhaps Odell is better in pass-coverage, but with the weight Brooks has lost, and the fact that he is widely regarded as a physical freak (not to mention he has shown the discipline to hang out in the film room unlike Odell), I see no reason to expect any less than Odell gave in '05... probably more.

This is not about you Derek, but I find all the hate for Odell and Henry to be short-sighted.

I don't hate Odell. I just said I don't expect him back. Quite a logical jump there, huh?

And since when do I hate Henry? I'm one of the guys who has argued that it's not a Bengal problem, it's and NFL problem. My only problem with Henry has ever been his ability to stay eligible. Actually it's quite similar to my feelings about Odell, except that I fully expect Henry to play again - and I see Henry as a superior football player. I don't have expectations for Odell to return because he's shown that he's undisciplined both on and off the field (He wasn't in shape for the '06 season even before the suspension), he's not yet eligble, and he's also in Marvin's doghouse (The team asked the NFL to act quickly on Odell suspension, and then Marvin did more than was required of him by making him clean out his locker and leave town).

[bengalsfansince68]

I said my frustration is not about you. It goes much, much deeper than you! I've seen it for months on all 3 boards of which I am a member

Many, many fans advocated cutting them both months ago. That kind of thinking is what I mean by short-sighted. Odell and Chris are both very talented football players. They are both under contract at cap friendly numbers. Both are on their last chance. They will both get their last chance, be it here or in Pissburgh.

Both might fail miserably.

Both might succeed spectacularly.

Who are the optimists and who are the pessimists?

Who sees the best case scenario and who sees the worst case scenario.

All I have meant to say throughout has been that there is a best case scenario in play and possible here. Please stop denying its existence.

Why the hell isn't Thurmanation here to help me?

[derekshank]

All I have meant to say throughout has been that there is a best case scenario in play and possible here. Please stop denying its existence.

Fair enough. I will say I have never said "cut him" and am certainly open to him getting another chance if ML gives it the okay.

That said, the fact that I don't expect him to come back doesn't deny the possibility - it just goes with my instinct... I doubt he will play for the Bengals again. And as I have mentioned numerous times, I don't think this LB corps needs him to succeed. But we'll agree about one thing... it can't hurt. I'm just not going to pretend like he'll be there and mention his name when I post about the Bengals depth chart.

Now... does anyone want to talk about Hartwell again?

[bengalsfansince68]

I agree that the defense can succeed whether Odell does or does not.

That having been said, I believe that for our D to be the absolute best it can be, we DO need Odell to step up and be the playmaker that he is capable of being!

With all due respect, sir.

[Jet23]

Whether or not he'll return to the team remains to be seen, but I thought Odell's rookie season was excellent. He was caught out of position often, but I don't think anyone expected anything else from a first year middle linebacker. He is a supremely talented player, and would have continued to improve as time passed.

Had Odell never been suspended, Ahmad Brooks would have no chance whatsoever at playing MLB (and I doubt we would have even drafted him).

Had Odell never been suspended, Ahmad Brooks wouldn't have been drafted by the Bengals. But now he has been, and is the more gifted/more reliable option.

I'll welcome Odell back as a WSLB if he gets his act together... but I have higher hopes from Brooks than I ever had from Odell.

IMO the ball is squarely in OT's court, as far as returning goes. If he 'tows the line', he will be given a shot to contribute at some point next year. I'm with you though, I think his position will be WSLB unless Brooks totally falls on his face at MLB.

[jjakq27]

When is Odell actually allowed to apply for reinstatement? Is it June or July?

[fattyjay]

All I have meant to say throughout has been that there is a best case scenario in play and possible here. Please stop denying its existence.

Fair enough. I will say I have never said "cut him" and am certainly open to him getting another chance if ML gives it the okay.

That said, the fact that I don't expect him to come back doesn't deny the possibility - it just goes with my instinct... I doubt he will play for the Bengals again. And as I have mentioned numerous times, I don't think this LB corps needs him to succeed. But we'll agree about one thing... it can't hurt. I'm just not going to pretend like he'll be there and mention his name when I post about the Bengals depth chart.

Now... does anyone want to talk about Hartwell again?

Seriously, how did this turn into the Odell Thurman Show? I for one think the Hartwell signing is nice in the fact that he will be supremely motivated to hit the FA market next year, and showing that his injuries are a thing of the past. I like the veteran presence he'll bring as well as his experience with Marvin.

All of that said, I don't see him staying past this year. I think it buys Marvin some time to figure out what he still has with the unknowns of Thurman and Pollack. I also believe that his size helps the overall defense. Those smaller backers had to be getting worn down by the end of games last year making it necessary for the safeties to come up more often in support of the run, thus leaving the door open for the big plays.

[hrod382]

When is Odell actually allowed to apply for reinstatement? Is it June or July?

I think it was like June 29th but I'm probably wrong.

[HairOnFire]

I just watched the NFL Replay of the Bengals/Falcon game from last season, and due to recent events focused my attention on Hartwell. Here's a couple of quick observations....

1 - The Falcons didn't use him as a 3-down LB, at least not in the Bengal game. Hartwell made several nice tackles while in pass coverage, but in obvious passing situations he was pulled in favor of a lighter defender.

2 - Hartwell combined with Babineaux to sack Palmer on a play. I couldn't make the play out clearly but it appeared that Hartwell and another Falcon player ran a twist that resulted in Hartwell blowing by the RG.

3 - Chad Johnson can be heard joking about how hard Hartwell hit him after Chad had caught a ball on a crossing pattern. "You hit me so hard I couldn't....[Voice trails off.]"

[derekshank]

I didn't see it posted anywhere else, so I thought I would.

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=6043

Hartwell signed his one-year deal Friday.

It's official.

Sorry Hoosier... no more hand wringing.