Saints sign Grant....Impact on justin?

[Kazkal]

ay Glazer of FOXSports.com reports that the seven-year contract includes $20 million in guaranteed money. Per Len Pasquarelli of ESPN.com, the contract is worth up to $63 million, and pays out $24 million over the first three years.

reported from pft.

[Whur CHad At?]

if we pay justin that, than we are the dumbest team in America

[HoosierCat]

Well, at least the market's set, eh?

[HairOnFire]

The Bengals might be paying Smith that much already. There was a a blurb on the NFL Network about the cost of fellow franchise tagged DE Dwight Freeney's salary cap hit being adjusted upward from 8.6 million to 9.2. Justin wasn't mentioned, but you'd have to think the increase involves him as well.

[HoosierCat]

The Bengals might be paying Smith that much already. There was a a blurb on the NFL Network about the cost of fellow franchise tagged DE Dwight Freeney's salary cap hit being adjusted upward from 8.6 million to 9.2. Justin wasn't mentioned, but you'd have to think the increase involves him as well.

I think the Freeney increase was because the Colts designated Dwight their "Exclusive Franchise Player." Unlike the "regular" franchise tag Justin got, "exclusive" franchise players aren't allowed to even talk to other teams; they can't be signed away even if a team is willing to give up the picks. But while regualar franchise players' salaries are based on the top 5 salaries in the previous year, "exclusive" guys get paid based on the top 5 guys in the current year.

[HairOnFire]

Sounds reasonable. Thanks for the info.

[Defender]

More food for thought: Grant has played 80 games in five seasons with 298 tackles and 36 sacks. Smith has played in 95 games during six seasons with 524 tackles and 41.5 sacks. Smith is going to ask for at least what the Saints gave Grant. Knowing this, I'm really starting to sour on Justin Smith being designated the franchise player.

[membengal]

Indeed, hoosier, the market is set.

For all of the Justin-Smith-sux-whiners out there, please know that not only does he NOT suck, the NFL is amply rewarding players like him for what they do.

The funny part is, if they let him walk by pulling the franchise tag, he is irreplaceable. I almost hope they do so I can go back, figure out each and every one of you in that club, and then spend the year stalking you with your own words as the team wonders why it couldn't replace him...

[HoosierCat]

I don't think the Bengals can afford to pull the tag off Justin this year, not after having shelved $8-9m for him and subsequently watched Steiny and K2 and Stewart and Wilkins and the rest walk for lack of money (not to mention cutting Simmons as a cap casualty).

But do you give him $9m a year? That chews up not just current but future cap space. Is Justin worth keeping the team in the kind of cap straightjacket it was in this year?

I think we find out tomorrow. If you hear, say, Adam Carriker's name called in round one, or Ray McDonald's in round two, chances are this is Justin's last year in stripes.

[derekshank]

I don't think the Bengals can afford to pull the tag off Justin this year, not after having shelved $8-9m for him and subsequently watched Steiny and K2 and Stewart and Wilkins and the rest walk for lack of money (not to mention cutting Simmons as a cap casualty).

But do you give him $9m a year? That chews up not just current but future cap space. Is Justin worth keeping the team in the kind of cap straightjacket it was in this year?

I think we find out tomorrow. If you hear, say, Adam Carriker's name called in round one, or Ray McDonald's in round two, chances are this is Justin's last year in stripes.

Yeah... I've been thinking about that possibility as well, but as I mentioned in another thread, Crowder would be my preference as a DE in the 2nd round.

[schweinhart]

I'd much rather hear Jarvis Moss or Jamaal Anderson called than Carriker in the 1st. The hyper twitched pass rushing blaster would help the Bengals more than the hard-working washing machine and both Anderson and Moss got plenty of backside pursuit.

If DE is drafted in the 1st, it probably will be one capable of either immediately or within a year handling the strongside end because they've already doled out the equivalent of last year's franchise contract to Jumpy. I'd expect him to get moved back over the left tackle where he would put up more sacks than he did there in '05 so long as they don't try rushing him inside again.

But even if they do draft DE in the 1st, I still don't think they pull the tag off Justin. More likely Fanene is gone and Justin plays another year if he doesn't hold out.

If it's DE in the 2nd, not sure about McDonald at this point. GBN had a PFW article a few days ago that said McDonald is missing an ACL. The guy would play half-dead if he had to and play well, but teams would seem likely to back off McDonald if he really is 1 ACL down.

[HoosierCat]

I'd much rather hear Jarvis Moss or Jamaal Anderson called than Carriker in the 1st.

Just to be clear, I'm not pimping Carriker or McDonald, those were just the first two names that popped into my head as possibly around when the Bengals are on the clock. I'm just saying that a DE tomorrow probably means Justin will be allowed to leave in '08.

[HairOnFire]

I don't think the Bengals can afford to pull the tag off Justin this year, not after having shelved $8-9m for him and subsequently watched Steiny and K2 and Stewart and Wilkins and the rest walk for lack of money (not to mention cutting Simmons as a cap casualty).

But do you give him $9m a year? That chews up not just current but future cap space. Is Justin worth keeping the team in the kind of cap straightjacket it was in this year?

I think we find out tomorrow. If you hear, say, Adam Carriker's name called in round one, or Ray McDonald's in round two, chances are this is Justin's last year in stripes.

I don't understand that line of thinking. The decision to let Steinbach walk seems to have been made long before the tag was used on Justin, and I seriously doubt that the potential loss of role players like Tony Stewart and Marcus Wilkins had any impact on the decision. Probably true for Kaesviharn as well. Plus, after the draft there's going to be another wave of free agents available, and many will be very good players cut loose for cap reasons. So the only thing preventing the Bengals from removing the tag is the simple matter of Smith being a very solid player that they'd like to keep.

I do think it's possible that if the Bengals draft the right type of DE (Carricker/Anderson) that they could remove the tag and roll with a rookie, but I think it's more likely that even then they'd keep Smith for a season while the rookie adjusts. But a smaller player like Jarvis Moss is simply going to crumble under the assault of opposing teams who run at him time and time again so I doubt he fits into any plan the Bengals might have...not to mention being a so-called character risk.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Ultimately I just cannot see the Bengals' putting so much of their cap space (almost a third) into their two DE's - both are good, solid players with value - but now that they have Geathers locked up, cannot see them extending Smith regardless. You can find a replacement in the draft or FA.

Smith's tackles aren't needed either from that position, if you have a good DT or two and LB's who can actually do their jobs. (something that will hopefully be addressed tomorrow)

Replacing his 6-8 sacks a year should not be a huge challenge.

And you can do it for a lot less $.

This team needs LB's in the worst way - at least 2 of them right now IMO - preferably one who is a solid pass rusher, and is a tackling machine on the outside.

[HoosierCat]

Plus, after the draft there's going to be another wave of free agents available, and many will be very good players cut loose for cap reasons.

No, there won't, especially now that the CBA has been changed to allow multiple March cuts to be counted as post-June-1 cuts for cap purposes. There certainly will not be anyone worth $9m, and where we would put $9m worth of bargain-bin vets on the roster after the draft picks get added in, I don't know.

The only reason I can see that they would pull the tag is if they decided it was more important to start getting Landon and Andrews and Larson and Miller etc. signed in advance of 2008. But that doesn't seem to be on their radar screen, either.

[HairOnFire]

There certainly will not be anyone worth $9m, and where we would put $9m worth of bargain-bin vets on the roster after the draft picks get added in, I don't know.

The only reason I can see that they would pull the tag is if they decided it was more important to start getting Landon and Andrews and Larson and Miller etc. signed in advance of 2008. But that doesn't seem to be on their radar screen, either.

I don't think I'd consider taking the tag off of Smith just to sign one player who cost just as much. Let's remember that the argument you've always made is that the tag has prevented the Bengals from filling multiple positions. So it's most likely that if Smith were let go the Bengals would add a FA or two from other teams while extending the contracts of several of their own FA's who just signed one-year tenders. And on that latter point, you just opined in another thread that the Bengals have so little cap room that they simply had no other choice than to sign their own tendered free agents to one-year deals. So is the idea off the radar due to the Bengals wishes or simply something that isn't possible?

Frankly, I'm not in favor of pulling the tag off of Justin and only mentioned the possibility in response to your suggestion that the Bengals couldn't afford to do so now that they've lost Steinbach, a player they didn't fight hard to keep, and a handful of role players.

[HoosierCat]

So is the idea off the radar due to the Bengals wishes or simply something that isn't possible?

I don't know, and asked that same question in the thread you mentioned.

Frankly, I'm not in favor of pulling the tag off of Justin and only mentioned the possibility in response to your suggestion that the Bengals couldn't afford to do so now that they've lost Steinbach, a player they didn't fight hard to keep, and a handful of role players.

I think they fought hard to keep most of them, they just didn't have anything to fight with. But no, the Bengals can hardly afford to let Justin walk now. All it would do is weaken the team, as well as throw up a big red flag to players and potential FAs that the bengals have no problem with screwing a guy out of FA and then kicking him to the curb after all the money is gone.

[schweinhart]

I do think it's possible that if the Bengals draft the right type of DE (Carricker/Anderson) that they could remove the tag and roll with a rookie, but I think it's more likely that even then they'd keep Smith for a season while the rookie adjusts. But a smaller player like Jarvis Moss is simply going to crumble under the assault of opposing teams who run at him time and time again so I doubt he fits into any plan the Bengals might have...not to mention being a so-called character risk.

Anderson would be the ideal and I was amazed at what I saw of him in several games enough to pick him at #18 after he declared despite his 2nd round draft committee evaluation and the mismatches he benefitted from when Arkansas used 5-man D-line fronts. He's already did what Moss has to do -- shoot up from 220 to 280 in a short time. Anderson already has the floor size wise and slotting Moss for what the Bengals are most likely to seek -- a run DE/pass rush DT is hinging a bet on ceiling, which at 6-7 is not exactly a low one from a frame perspective.

Carriker does fit what the Bengals need and preferred last year vs. on the strongside -- a big DE who kicks down to DT for pass rush. But Carriker does nothing exceptional and for what he would bring IMO they can get later, like in the 7th round with Mel Purcell. For all the claims about Carriker's positional versaility, it just didn't look like it translated on the college gridiron to the kind of premium NFL skills at either DE or DT in a 4-3 to warrant a high 1st round pick. His best shot to succeed the most in the league sure looks like it would be as a 3-4 DE.

They've already tried Justin Smith at LDE vs. the run and a good bit there vs. the pass in '05 and they could decide to give him the big payday to primarily use him there like the Saints use Charles Grant. But it sure don't seem likely with the money Jumpy got, plus the fact that Smith will never be considered as a DE/DT and the Bengals appear deadset to beat that dead horse in the ground instead of letting the DEs be DEs and the DTs be DTs..

[GregCook]

I could be dead wrong, but don't the Bengals have until July before the $9 mill tag is set in stone for the year?

So they have ample time to trade him to a team that will do a long term deal to his liking Clearly they aren't going to sign him long term, they are merely positioned to rent him for one more season.

Draft day could be interesting to a team with lots of cap room, a higher draft position and serious needs on the line.

[HoosierCat]

I could be dead wrong, but don't the Bengals have until July before the $9 mill tag is set in stone for the year?

So they have ample time to trade him to a team that will do a long term deal to his liking Clearly they aren't going to sign him long term, they are merely positioned to rent him for one more season.

Draft day could be interesting to a team with lots of cap room, a higher draft position and serious needs on the line.

You are right about the July deadline (I think it's the 15th). If they don't get a long-term deal by then Justin can only play under the 1-year offer.

The challenge with a trade scenario is that they can't trade Justin unless he signs the franchise tender. Even if a player is franchised, he is still technically a FA, and you can't trade a FA.

[HairOnFire]

Carriker does fit what the Bengals need and preferred last year vs. on the strongside -- a big DE who kicks down to DT for pass rush. But Carriker does nothing exceptional and for what he would bring IMO they can get later, like in the 7th round with Mel Purcell.

First you claimed that the Bengals could use a 7th round pick on Brent Curvey and get a better player than Amobi Okoye. Now you're claiming that they could use their other 7th round pick on Mel Purcell and land a better player than Adam Carricker. So what's next, getting an UDFA that's better than Patrick Willis?

[GregCook]

Right, his agent would have to earn his keep by negotiating a deal that would replace that Bengal franchise contract. Of course it would have to be a team that the Bengals could live with. Seems trading in the NFL is a whole lot harder than say MLB or the NBA. Anyway, I don't think Justin will play a down for the Bengals in 2007.

The challenge with a trade scenario is that they can't trade Justin unless he signs the franchise tender. Even if a player is franchised, he is still technically a FA, and you can't trade a FA.

[sparky151]

I think a team can trade it's rights to a player even if he isn't signed. The Chargers didn't sign Eli Manning before trading him to the Giants.

[HoosierCat]

I think a team can trade it's rights to a player even if he isn't signed. The Chargers didn't sign Eli Manning before trading him to the Giants.

Eli wasn't a FA. By drafting him, SD got his rights and then traded them. Justin is a FA and can negotiate and sign with any team without any say from the Bengals -- only after he signs do they have a right match or charge the signing team the franchise price.

[Kazkal]

Replacing his 6-8 sacks a year should not be a huge challenge.

you say it now but then we draft carriker and he racks up 2 sacks then you'd be moaning we diden't keep justin.