Serious Question Regarding the Defense and the Draft

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

But, the Bengals HAVE loaded up on defense in the last four drafts, so those drafts should be coming to fruition this year, right? That's kind of my point from the original post.

I guess I am thinking that, say, a WR in round 1 IS defensible from both an immediate AND long-term impact standpoint. CJ and Housh are not getting any younger. Their peak years are probably capped at the next two to maybe three seasons. Getting someone in now to complement and eventually take over for them is a need.

As for past drafts, off the top of my head, the following players should pay off this year (if they ever will) on the whole early picks for future thing: Landon Johnson, Caleb Miller, Jonathan Joseph, Frostee Rucker, Damato Peko, Madieu Williams, (Odell Thurman? David Pollack?), Ahmad Brooks. Point is, they HAVE done that. Doing it one more year certainly won't make me grumpy, TDB, but it does beg my question...if they have gone so hard defensively like they have over the last four years, at some point you have to infuse back into the offense as well for it to work.

My hunch is they will indeed go defense tomorrow. In the first round. Which is fine. I won't be upset when they do, but IF they were to go offense in the first round, as long as it isn't a quarterback, I wouldn't think it that crazy. And I would certainly expect to be meeting every single WORST DECISION EVER thread with these same points.

Last four drafts? Defense? No. 2003 was offense (that's still in the last 4 until the weekend). 2004 saw a RB go first and a total bust at CB for the 2nd (sure they tried, but they failed). We also (in fairness) got a starting DE and FS, but we're already counting on those players. They've paid off as much as they will. 2005 saw us get two LBs, one of whom may not play due to suspension, one who may not play due to a broken neck. The rest was offense. 2006 saw us get a good rookie CB who we're already completely counting on due to Tory's slowness and Deltha's doghouse. We got a rookie DT who looks promising. We also got a couple of LBs that we desperately need to pay off. Hopefully, they will.

But to say that based on that, we're set at D? You have to be kidding me. Trust me, I'd love it if our D were good enough that we could spread the love to the O, but it's not.

As far as individual players go, Landon Johnson and Caleb Miller are simply not starter quality LBs. So as for Hoosier's point of pulling Landon off the field, yeah, that's the idea. Sometimes a LB makes a lot of tackles because teams realize that the easiest way to get 5 yards a rush is to run straight at him.

We might pull it off at LB *IF* Jeanty is the real deal (I think he is), and Brooks realizes his potential by learning to play LB with discipline, which he's claimed he is, and either Pollack/Odell comes back or Nicholson turns out to be something. That's still some long odds, but not absolutely impossible. We probably still need a LB in the draft, though. Also, you might notice that we currently have absolutely no backup DBs worth a damn, and if Deltha is getting the shaft, we may only have 3 starters. Also note that this is a position that has not been addressed at all in the last few drafts, so there's no hoping someone pans out either (aside from the Brooks fiasco, and I'm not putting money on it). So we need to draft at least one DB, and one basically has to be a first-day pick. Something tells me they're planning to draft a CB to make Deltha a June 1 cut. Not saying it's right, but that's the vibe I'm getting.

So out of these 6 picks, we need 2 DBs and 1 LB, and DT is getting old too (even if Peko is the real deal). I'd like to see 4 picks on D, ideally those positions but one has to be flexible. Your point regarding aging WRs is well taken and it worries me as well, but for this year I'd like to see what Tab has, and just maybe Mr. Henry will decide at some point to stop being an idiot.

Regarding round 1 WR? Only if there was a game changer that had fallen for specious reasons. To me, Ginn's not that good, and WR's don't have that good of a draft success ratio (a lot of them flame out - Rogers, Williamson, etc). And if anyone's prepared to defend him, don't bother if you're an OSU fan.

[membengal]

I did NOT say we were "set at defense". I said, given the volume of guys they have drafted in the last four years at defense, that going to a WR in the first round this time around isn't that insane. Stop reading things into what I have posted.

Now, if you want to talk about how they have whiffed in the past at defensive picks, I will listen to you. But it kind of strengthens my point that grabbing at defensive players again is not necessarily the answer...

[derekshank]

I did NOT say we were "set at defense". I said, given the volume of guys they have drafted in the last four years at defense, that going to a WR in the first round this time around isn't that insane.

Unfortunately, you're still wrong... even after explaining yourself. Where you could be considered sane is that it wouldn't be unheard of to see the Bengals go offense in the 1st day of the draft... but don't expect to see them go WR. You can argue they have needs everywhere on offense except WR and QB. They could go O-Line, TE, RB... but WR? They have 9 on the roster, many of which they have high expectations for. WR in the 1st round is insane, no matter how you slice it.

[membengal]

Perhaps, derek. But I am not in the camp of buying into the hype of re-treads and late rounders coming through.

Their WR roster behind CJ and Housh:

Chris Henry (gone for 1/2 a year and one sneeze from being gone forever)

Tab Perry (a favorite of mine, but coming off a hellacious injury with open questions as to how well he will recover and if he will ever be what he was going to be)

Antonio Chatman (bleah. just, bleah.)

Bennie Brazell (hella unknown alleged speed guy, no experience)

Glenn Holt (mostly unknown, eh, sorta receiver)

Skylar Green (completely unknown)

Reggie McNeal (complete unknown as to potential at receiver)

That's the census, as I see it. Now, tell me, if, God forbid, CJ or Housh goes down in Week 1, that you are comfortable with replacing that with what is currently on this roster.

Frankly, I am not. I think it was Hoosier who made that point a few months back in one thread or another. Given that this team will rise and fall on Carson Palmer's right arm, I hate the idea that this team is within an inch from having no one for him to throw to. And at some point in the next few years, as they age, it is absolutely an issue.

Look, I have no doubt there are more pressing needs elsewhere. I won't yell when they go defense in the first few rounds.

But my point with this thread was to examine the assumption that is would be short bus retarded to go offense early in this draft. It wouldn't be. There are good reasons for going offense in the first round, even wide receiver. And, again, if they do so, I will delight in pointing those reasons out in the face of the outrage that is sure to come.

[derekshank]

That's the census, as I see it. Now, tell me, if, God forbid, CJ or Housh goes down in Week 1, that you are comfortable with replacing that with what is currently on this roster.

By that logic, the Bengals need to trade up and draft Brady Quinn because what happens if Palmer goes down? How about if Rudi goes down? I guess they need to take Marshawn Lynch if he's there.

You can't draft based on potential injury. Frankly, there is more depth at WR than any other position. If Deltha goes down in week 1 the Bengals are in a lot more trouble than if Housh goes down. Tab Perry, Antonio Chatman, and Glen Holt all have experience playing in the NFL, even if it's only been in a bind (in Holt's case). But if they are forced to start Ratliff at CB... who's going to be the nickle back? Kilmer? That makes you feel better than having to start Tab Perry?

Face it... the Bengals are deeper at WR than basically any other position. A 1st round WR makes less sense than any pick other than QB.

[membengal]

Except for the fact that the Bengals have a Pro Bowl QB in his prime years and are absolutely duty-bound to make ***damn sure he has targets. They simply cannot afford to waste any time in this window of opportunity provided by Palmer.

Henry's issues (media driven, league over-reacted to) have made this a relevant query. If he were around, no, I am not posing this question. But he pretty much is zeroed out in my mind for 2007, and can never really be counted on. That means, since 2001, they have not done anything (taking Henry out of the equation) to augment CJ and Housh, in effect. No high picks. Nothing for the future. The thought that they would be OK with hoping Chatman can get open on a regular basis, or that Brazell takes a developmental leap, or that Perry is 100%, makes me itchy.

Again, it's why a WR pick there wouldn't be the end of the world. Still, if Revis falls down to them, it's a no-brainer to take him. Same for a few other defenders. What I do NOT want to see is a reach pick in the first round for a defensive player while passing up a potential franchise anchor during Carson's prime years at WR. That would be unfortunate...

[derekshank]

What I do NOT want to see is a reach pick in the first round for a defensive player while passing up a potential franchise anchor during Carson's prime years at WR. That would be unfortunate...

Luckily there is an easy answer to that problem this year. On Mike and Mike this morning Mel Kiper said he expected Ted Ginn to fall to 19 for the Titans who desperately want him. There have also been many comments about the Chiefs and Cowboys coveting his services as well. In other words, there is no need to reach for a defensive player and be forced to take a WR when there are so many teams that would almost certainly be willing to trade up for that slot.

The issue here is surrounding Ginn. If he's there, do the Bengals take him? The easy answer is 'no.' Either take a defensive player that isn't a reach, or trade the pick and get multiple players. But under no circumstances does it make sense to me to take Ginn. I understand your concerns about the WR corps... but the fact remains that we have more depth there than just about any other position.

In other words, I'm not completely closed off to the idea of drafting offense to help or protect Palmer. If they draft Olsen, or a highly rated O-Lineman, I'd be very surprised... but not floored. If they take Ginn, I'll be nothing short of mad as hell. There's just no excuse when it will be so easy to trade that pick.

[HoosierCat]

If Deltha goes down in week 1 the Bengals are in a lot more trouble than if Housh goes down.

Ummmm...no. If Deltha goes down and we have to start Ratliff at corner, really, what's the falloff? Deltha pretty much stank last year-- how much worse could Ratliff be? OTOH, Housh came up big last season, as usual. The drop from him, even to Perry or Chatman, is going to much larger.

By that logic, the Bengals need to trade up and draft Brady Quinn because what happens if Palmer goes down? How about if Rudi goes down? I guess they need to take Marshawn Lynch if he's there.

Well, as for Palmer, the Bengals are still trying to nail down a quality backup there, so they seem aware of the depth issue. If Lynch is still on the board at 18...yeah, that's not easy to pass by, either. Rudi is 28 and his running style isn't one that's conducive to a long career, Watson's a career backup and Perry is a bust.

The trouble isn't so much that they've spent too many picks in recent years on defense versus offense (I think in day one it's been 6 offense versus 8 defense in the marvin era) but that all their top offensive skill position picks have flamed out: Washington, Perry, and now Henry.

In the end I still expect defense, at least in round one. But I agree with mem that there are strong arguments for offense, too.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

If Deltha goes down in week 1 the Bengals are in a lot more trouble than if Housh goes down.

Ummmm...no. If Deltha goes down and we have to start Ratliff at corner, really, what's the falloff? Deltha pretty much stank last year-- how much worse could Ratliff be? OTOH, Housh came up big last season, as usual. The drop from him, even to Perry or Chatman, is going to much larger.

[derekshank]

If Deltha goes down in week 1 the Bengals are in a lot more trouble than if Housh goes down.

Ummmm...no. If Deltha goes down and we have to start Ratliff at corner, really, what's the falloff? Deltha pretty much stank last year-- how much worse could Ratliff be? OTOH, Housh came up big last season, as usual. The drop from him, even to Perry or Chatman, is going to much larger.

You missed my argument there Hoosier. It's not the falloff from Deltha to Ratliff (even though there is a signficant drop-off, whether you'd want to admit it or not). The real problem comes when you need to play a nickle back. You're talking Greg Brooks at that point. You really think that's worse than having Antonio Chatman playing as the 3rd WR?

In the end I still expect defense, at least in round one. But I agree with mem that there are strong arguments for offense, too.

Again, you sort of missed the point. I'm not arguing against the idea that an argument can be made for offense. Hell, the Colts selected Addai last year and won the Super Bowl with one of the worst run defenses in history. Sure, there are arguments that can be made for drafting more offense... just not WR. Especially when the Bengals are almost certain to receive offers for the pick if Ginn is there.

[The PatternMaster]

Mem,

Your not crazy, I think everybody in PBS knows that we're one injury away from having a very mediocore receiving corp for a 100 million dollar qb.

Honestly, I've come to the conclusion that there are alot of people here who feel as if they are apart of the Bengals front office and actually have a say, when they are just guessing and giving their opinion like we are.

I would be surprised if they didn't take a wr, because even when Henry is able to play again will Marvin play him? He has already refered to Henry as the 53rd man on the roster, that's not a good sign. Also your right, TJ and CJ are approaching 30 and TJ's deal will be expiring in a few seasons. Since Henry has proven he can't be counted for the long term it would make sense draft a young guy who can replace Henry and eventually replace TJ, if you can't see how that doesn't make sense then your crazy.

Before Tab got injured he wasn't close to getting on the field as a wr, they using him for special teams and shovel passes; so if you think he's going come back from a hip injury that prematurely ended his season and replace Henry then again your crazy. Chatman was productive for GB, but he has done anything but get injured here, I wouldn't be surprised he didn't make the final cut. Brazelle is unproven, Holt is not in Henry's class, but I would say he's probably the best option at #3.

Henry's suspension put us in tight spot, along with not re-signing Washington. I think that it would be wise to draft a wr early in the draft because the depth at that position is a huge question mark and ultimately that is what the draft is for, to improve a team's depth.

Btw if Lynch is there @ 18 I hope we atleast consider drafting him cause who if and when Perry will play again.

[HoosierCat]

You missed my argument there Hoosier. It's not the falloff from Deltha to Ratliff (even though there is a signficant drop-off, whether you'd want to admit it or not). The real problem comes when you need to play a nickle back. You're talking Greg Brooks at that point. You really think that's worse than having Antonio Chatman playing as the 3rd WR?

Yes. From Ratliff to Brooks? Hell, that may be a step up? But from Chad or TJ or even Henry to Chatman? That's pro bowl caliber to average, on a team that whether anyone likes it or not is going to have to win with offense, not defense. Does that mean you don't take dfnse and try to improve? No. But ya dance with the one who brung ya, and I want to make sure Carson has guys to dance with.

[derekshank]

ya dance with the one who brung ya, and I want to make sure Carson has guys to dance with.

He does. That's the thing. You don't draft based on potential injury. There is nothing to indicate that either Chad or Housh will get injured. I also don't see the Colts (who are just as guilty as the Bengals of always drafting for offense first) adding 1st day WR's just in case Harrison or Wayne get hurt. It's just not how you operate. If you did that, and you suffer no injuries, you have 4 or more quality WR's on the roster and only 1 ball.

Now, like I mentioned before. If the Bengals feel that there is a TE that can contribute... sure. Whatever. Palmer certainly threw to his TE's more often when the Bengals did have they slew of WR injuries last year, so a day 1 pass-catching TE could help with both red-zone percentage, AND be a type of insurance to WR injuries. But Ginn? It's just not a good idea. If there isn't anything but Ginn worth taking... trade that pick!

[HairOnFire]

Here's a couple of questions just begging to be asked. If you really are serious about using a 1st day pick on a WR due to concerns about Chad and TJ then you're looking to replace a feature receiver, not Henry. So is Ginn really the best pure WR likely to be available? Isn't the only reason he's as highly ranked as he is due to his KR skills?

[The PatternMaster]

Here's a couple of questions just begging to be asked. If you really are serious about using a 1st day pick on a WR due to concerns about Chad and TJ then you're looking to replace a feature receiver, not Henry. So is Ginn really the best pure WR likely to be available? Isn't the only reason he's as highly ranked as he is due to his KR skills?

I would say Ginn is ranked so high because of his explosiveness and speed, he has the physical tools to be great and NFL coaches realize that if they can match their knowledge with his physical skill set then you will have one hell of player. Ginn might be the 2nd best athlete in the draft, behind Calvin Johnson. He is a big play waiting to happen, anybody that can potential get to the endzone every time they touch the ball will be highly coveted by NFL teams.

[Stripes]

But, the Bengals HAVE loaded up on defense in the last four drafts, so those drafts should be coming to fruition this year, right? That's kind of my point from the original post.

That's a valid point. I just see a very black and white question here:

Should the Bengals rely on the young defenders already on the roster to improve in the long term enough to field a good defense and beef up depth at positions of strength? Or should they continue bringing in young talent at positions of weakness to increase the likelihood that a good player eventually mans each position?

I prefer option two by a wide margin, but I won't say option one can't be argued. Perhaps the crapola defense we've seen in recent years has made me a bit biased.

I guess I am thinking that, say, a WR in round 1 IS defensible from both an immediate AND long-term impact standpoint. CJ and Housh are not getting any younger. Their peak years are probably capped at the next two to maybe three seasons. Getting someone in now to complement and eventually take over for them is a need.

I agree it is a need... but I don't think it's a first round need. Maybe in two or three years it will be, but I think we can get by well enough with skill players in the later rounds. I'd be more concerned with finding a long-term replacement for Rudi than either of the receivers, simply because he'll probably lose a step before they will.

if they have gone so hard defensively like they have over the last four years, at some point you have to infuse back into the offense as well for it to work.

I agree. I don't think we're to that point quite yet though.

And I would certainly expect to be meeting every single WORST DECISION EVER thread with these same points.

That goes without saying regardless of who they pick.

[HairOnFire]

But I didn't ask if he was the best athlete in the draft. I asked if he was the best pure WR likely to be available? Not to put too fine a point on it but if there's really a need for a WR so strong that it's reasonable to burn a 1st round pick then why aren't there a bunch of threads pimping Dwayne Bowe or Robert Meachem?

[Stripes]

But I didn't ask if he was the best athlete in the draft. I asked if he was the best pure WR likely to be available? Not to put too fine a point on it but if there's really a need for a WR so strong that it's reasonable to burn a 1st round pick then why aren't there a bunch of threads pimping Dwayne Bowe or Robert Meachem?

I've wondered the same thing. Ginn looks to me to have very high bust potential, simply because he is so one-dimensional as a receiver. He'd be valuable on special teams, but that doesn't mean much to me in the first round.

My favorite receiver in this draft after Calvin Johnson is Sidney Rice.

[membengal]

Fair question.

As for my point, I guess if the Bengals have either Bowe or Meacham ranked the best receiver on the board, and pull the trigger at 18, I am cool with it.

Being from Memphis now, on Meacham I can tell you that he's a legit receiver who put up rock solid numbers against good competition. Is he better than Sydney Rice? Dunno. The receiver class is so deep that someone really nice may be there for the Bengals in round 2, which would be fine with me as well...

[derekshank]

Not to put too fine a point on it but if there's really a need for a WR so strong that it's reasonable to burn a 1st round pick then why aren't there a bunch of threads pimping Dwayne Bowe or Robert Meachem?

I'm surprised that you would ask a question that has such an obvious answer. Neither of the other guys played at Ohio State. Duh!

[HoosierCat]

FWIW Bowe and Meacham (and for that matter Greg Olsen) are all ahead of Ginn on my round one offensive wish list...

[membengal]

And to be clear, I mentioned Ginn only because ML did. I really don't want the point to get lost in a Ginn debate, per se...

[membengal]

Here's a couple of questions just begging to be asked. If you really are serious about using a 1st day pick on a WR due to concerns about Chad and TJ then you're looking to replace a feature receiver, not Henry. So is Ginn really the best pure WR likely to be available? Isn't the only reason he's as highly ranked as he is due to his KR skills?

HoF, apparently NOT. Ginn gone at #9 overall. Fascinating draft...