Is your wife sleeping with an unemployed NFL GM?

[HairOnFire]

Off-Sided Offseason

Written by Joe Bussell

When is the last time you walked into the doctor’s office and thought that you knew more about your body than he did? You don’t go into your accountant’s office and tell him how he needs to do your taxes right?

Not a chance! They went to school for years to learn how to do what they do. That’s why you pay them money, because when it comes to those things, they’re just smarter than you.

So what makes Cincinnati Bengals’ fans think they know more than the organization’s front office?

Ignorance, that’s what.

Cincinnati doesn’t have a so-called General Manager, but that’s not a bad thing. The Bengals don’t rely on one person to make personnel decisions; instead the organization has a team that works together to make sure the right players are signed to fit their system. Included in those decisions are Mike Brown (President), Paul Brown (Vice President of Player Personnel), Katie Blackburn (Executive Vice President), Troy Blackburn (Director of Business Development), and Marvin Lewis and the rest of the Cincinnati coaching staff. That’s a lot of people who are a lot smarter than you, me, and the entire Bengals fan base.

I’m not calling Bengals’ fans stupid. I’m just saying don’t be naïve.

Since Marvin Lewis left the Baltimore Ravens in 2003, and became the head coach of the Bengals, how many bad offseasons has Cincy had? Better yet, how many offseasons has the team had that haven’t been good?

None! Yet, somehow, Cincinnati fans still think they know more about football than the people that are paid to make these decisions. If the fans were that smart, they would be employees, not fans.

Instead, I peruse Bengals.com message boards to find fans disgusted with the release of Brian Simmons who was No.1 on the depth chart at all three linebacker positions, the loss of Eric Steinbach to the rival Browns, and the “lack of effort” to re-sign one of the best cover safeties in the league, Kevin Kaesviharn.

The fact is, Cincy tried everything it could to retain Kaesviharn, but in the end the decision wasn’t up them. Simmons was the front office’s decision, and while we as fans may not agree on it, I’m sure the front office and coaching staff knows its players better than we do.

I agree that after all of the players released or that left through free agency, and the lack of signings during free agency, it can look like Cincy is having a not-so-good offseason. That’s not how the Bengals see it and that’s not how the fans should see it.

Whatever happened to “In Marvin We Trust?”

The major aspect of the Cincy front office that needs to be pointed out is the belief that it is better to build through the Draft than through free agency. This isn’t the first time the Bengals have been quiet during the free agency period. Actually, I can’t remember a time when Cincinnati made any noise in free agency. I have noticed that the front office has a bit of magic when it comes to draft picks. The talent has been outstanding.

Takeo Spikes is the first name to come to mind. Then there’s Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmanzadeh (7th round pick by the way), Justin Smith, Carson Palmer, Chris Henry, David Pollack (he was a monster before he was hurt), Odell Thurman (likely to return since Simmons was released), and just last offseason, Jonathan Joseph. Let’s just say the Bengals have an eye for talent in the Draft.

Cincinnati fans need to understand that the Bengals have faith that Ethan Kilmer, Herana-Daze Jones, or John Busing will step up to fill the hole left by the departed Kaesviharn. Call it building from the inside. Cincy drafts young players to develop within its specific system, so when the time comes for them to step up, they know what exactly what they’re doing.

A perfect example is the linebacking corp last season that ended up with enough holes to sink the Titanic. A string of injuries and one huge suspension to Odell Thurman caused Marvin Lewis and his staff to resort to Rashaad Jeanty, Caleb Miller, and Ahmad Brooks to keep the Cincy ship from taking on water. The fill-ins played well and showed why the Bengals’ coaching staff believes its team is as deep as any other in the league.

Get off Marvin’s back. He knows what he’s doing, or have you forgotten he hasn’t had a losing season in Cincinnati? You can have your opinion, but just remember that there’s a reason you’re at home reading my article and not in the front office helping make decisions.

[HoosierCat]

Since Marvin Lewis left the Baltimore Ravens in 2003, and became the head coach of the Bengals, how many bad offseasons has Cincy had? Better yet, how many offseasons has the team had that haven’t been good?

None!

Oh, that's rich! No bad offseasons! Now there's something to plaster on a big tin-and-plastic trophy and award to the FO, eh?

Shoot, how many bad offseasons did the Bengals have before Marvin? None! Hell, the Bengals are the kings of the offseason! Every offseason is the Offseason In Which Everything Has Changed. Our draft picks are lionized; last year's practice squad players regaled as saviors; every two-bit hire and and old washed up FA touted as The Big Acquisition.

No bad offseasons! Wow.

[kayaker0678]

Off-Sided Offseason

Written by Joe Bussell

Takeo Spikes is the first name to come to mind. Then there’s Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmanzadeh (7th round pick by the way), Justin Smith, Carson Palmer, Chris Henry, David Pollack (he was a monster before he was hurt), Odell Thurman (likely to return since Simmons was released), and just last offseason, Jonathan Joseph. Let’s just say the Bengals have an eye for talent in the Draft.

doing.

well let me break this paragraph down for ya bud

Takeo Left because he wanted green pasture good draft pick

Chad and Tj both good

Justin Smith Not as good as a first round should be!

Carson Ok if we didnt take him wow we would have been dumb anyone with a right mind took him

Chris Henry O a real winner here how many arrests?

David Pollack he was under achiveing before he got hurt and it sucks that he got hurt.

Odell Again a real winner If sports had any moral backbone he wouldnt play again.

JJ has stone hands but was a decent pick

Here are some rotten picks for his article

akili Smith, David Klingler, and Kajana Carter!

[HairOnFire]

C'mon guys, the writer flat out called you armchair GM's ignorant and naive. That's got to make you mad, ehh? So let's see some broadsides. Or can't you do better than responding with Hobsonian quotes and a recap of busted players drafted before Marvin got here? After all, mocking the things that Hobson says isn't the same thing as mocking the things the Bengals actually do, and mentioning busted players that Marvin didn't draft implies you're too dumb to understand what the article was saying. And you're not that dumb, right?

Remember, ignorant and naive.

Now go get 'em, tigers.

[HoosierCat]

C'mon guys, the writer flat out called you armchair GM's ignorant and naive. That's got to make you mad, ehh?

Sorry Hair, but I can't stop laughing long enough to get mad at some Seahawks fan who has written, apparently, one "article" for the zone's f2fa.com Seattle partner. No bad offseasons!!! Woo-hoo, some break out da bubbly!

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Shucks, I guess I missed that "David Pollack was a beast" era before he got hurt, and the great offseason that was last year.

This guy's tone and the "substance" in his article is purely opinion based...

I judge Marvin on his results now - honeymoon is over.

Another .500 season is not acceptable.

We'll see.

[Stripes]

While I don't really agree with the apparent premise that Bengals fans don't have a clue what is going on as compared to the front office, it was a funny read.

I do agree we've had no bad offseasons under Marvin though. After 2003 we nailed down Rudi long term. After 2004, we kept a hold of T.J. Through 2005, 2006, and 2007, the Bengals have resigned/extended nearly every key talent to keep the core of the team intact. The only casualty over four years has been Steinbach.

Maybe people will still view the arrest-spree as a major negative, but I don't. Odell's arrest that ruined his season ocurred during the regular season I believe.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

C'mon guys, the writer flat out called you armchair GM's ignorant and naive. That's got to make you mad, ehh? So let's see some broadsides. Or can't you do better than responding with Hobsonian quotes and a recap of busted players drafted before Marvin got here? After all, mocking the things that Hobson says isn't the same thing as mocking the things the Bengals actually do, and mentioning busted players that Marvin didn't draft implies you're too dumb to understand what the article was saying. And you're not that dumb, right?

Remember, ignorant and naive.

Now go get 'em, tigers.

OK:

From the article:

"When is the last time you walked into the doctor’s office and thought that you knew more about your body than he did? You don’t go into your accountant’s office and tell him how he needs to do your taxes right? "

Now, I just want to make sure this guy's logic holds. I successfully diagnosed something that's been wrong with me that doctors have failed at for 8 years (before anyone asks, it wasn't brain damage). Also, I do my own taxes.

By his reasoning, then, since I do apparently know more about my body than my doctor, and I am my own accountant, I'm fully entitled to second guess Mikey, right?

And anyway, it's not like you need special training to be a GM, most of them are morons (I don't need a degree to make that evaluation about Millen, for instance). Mikey's main qualification is that he shares 23 chromosomes with the founder of the team (or 0, if, as rumored, he must be a bastard since he didn't get any of Paul's football brains). So we're not talking about a merit-based hiring here.

Given that he's produced 1 winning season in the 16 (?) years that he's been in charge since Paul handed over the reins, I'm not deifying him just yet. Considering the parity rules in place in the NFL that make it almost impossible to be that good or bad for very long, I'd consider whether a monkey hired as GM could have done as good a job. Actually, perhaps that's what's happened.

Now before I get lumped in with "Suicide Watch" Steakhouse, it's only Mikey I think is an idiot, I've got respect for Marvin.

[BlainThePain]

Off-Sided Offseason

Written by Joe Bussell

Since Marvin Lewis left the Baltimore Ravens in 2003, and became the head coach of the Bengals, how many bad offseasons has Cincy had? Better yet, how many offseasons has the team had that haven’t been good?

Whoever wrote this article sucks at fact checking. Marvin Lewis coached for the Redskings in 2002.

[CarsonCity]

I enjoyed the article for the most part. Sure there were some inaccuracies (Marvin was with the 'Skins, not Ravens right before he came here), but the premise is spot on. I grow so tired of fans acting like they know more about football than those in charge. I've read a few threads where guys actually want Marvin Lewis fired yesterday.

Now, I have no problem with fans giving their opinions on players or on moves the Bengals' FO makes. But many act like they've forgotten more football than Marvin will ever know. They present pure speculation as the word of God. They proclaim another 13 year demise because we didn't absurdly overspend this offseason. And the list goes on.

Remember, despite all the injuries, the arrests, suspensions, tough schedule, Carson rehab, etc., this team was just a couple fluke plays away from being 10-6. Hell, they were one 39 yard field goal away from the playoffs. To act like Marvin and co. are driving this team into the ground (which some do claim) is absurd. Most just need to relax and realize this is still one of the most talented teams in the NFL.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I enjoyed the article for the most part. Sure there were some inaccuracies (Marvin was with the 'Skins, not Ravens right before he came here), but the premise is spot on. I grow so tired of fans acting like they know more about football than those in charge. I've read a few threads where guys actually want Marvin Lewis fired yesterday.

Now, I have no problem with fans giving their opinions on players or on moves the Bengals' FO makes. But many act like they've forgotten more football than Marvin will ever know. They present pure speculation as the word of God. They proclaim another 13 year demise because we didn't absurdly overspend this offseason. And the list goes on.

Remember, despite all the injuries, the arrests, suspensions, tough schedule, Carson rehab, etc., this team was just a couple fluke plays away from being 10-6. Hell, they were one 39 yard field goal away from the playoffs. To act like Marvin and co. are driving this team into the ground (which some do claim) is absurd. Most just need to relax and realize this is still one of the most talented teams in the NFL.

See, I hear these strawman arguments...but I want to see the "fire Marvin!" thread started by any frequent poster on this board who can spell his own name. I don't think it exists. There are threads that claim that Mikey is an idiot, I've posted many such, and I maintain this, but not Marvin. I've seen one single "Fire Marvin!" thread that I can remember, started by a probable crackhead, and he was resoundly shouted down by many people on this board including me. Some suggested trading Carson in response, that's how seriously it was taken.

I also don't think many people blame the team for not signing high-priced FAs. Some, but not many. Most of us realize that signing high-priced FAs is not the way to win in today's NFL. If anything, some people think that the Bengals simply spend money on the wrong people, like Bobbie and possibly Willie. Some people complained about Justin, but that disappeared when we realized what the going rate was for FAs - Justin's not top 5 at his position, but he's worth top 5 money from last year, which is what the franchise tag is based on.

So I'm politely calling BS on you! 1) No one wants Marvin fired. 2) No one claims to know more about football than Marvin. 3) Not many people claim that the Bengals underspend, at least on player salaries.

Some of us claim that: 1) Mikey is an idiot, 2) Mikey underspends on scouts, 3) Marvin hasn't improved the D, for some reason (can't argue with results?), 4) Bresnehan is not a good play caller.

If you want to discuss any of those points - which I claim and which I don't believe I'm alone in claiming - feel free. Others may also be willing to argue over the Hamilton County deal and the damned bubble, but I'm not interested.

[HairOnFire]

Now before I get lumped in with "Suicide Watch" Steakhouse, it's only Mikey I think is an idiot, I've got respect for Marvin.

Well, let's give Kid Steakhouse some credit this time because he actually understood the writer was offering a pretty solid defense of Marvin Lewis. Mikey was only mentioned briefly in the opening when the lack of a GM was well defended by pointing out that the duties were shared, not ignored.

Frankly, the only problem I had with the article was the writer describing armchair GM's as ignorant and naive. Of course he's absolutely correct on that front, but I've always felt those are the types of things that should be implied, but not said bluntly.

Because name calling is wrong, right?

[CarsonCity]

I enjoyed the article for the most part. Sure there were some inaccuracies (Marvin was with the 'Skins, not Ravens right before he came here), but the premise is spot on. I grow so tired of fans acting like they know more about football than those in charge. I've read a few threads where guys actually want Marvin Lewis fired yesterday.

Now, I have no problem with fans giving their opinions on players or on moves the Bengals' FO makes. But many act like they've forgotten more football than Marvin will ever know. They present pure speculation as the word of God. They proclaim another 13 year demise because we didn't absurdly overspend this offseason. And the list goes on.

Remember, despite all the injuries, the arrests, suspensions, tough schedule, Carson rehab, etc., this team was just a couple fluke plays away from being 10-6. Hell, they were one 39 yard field goal away from the playoffs. To act like Marvin and co. are driving this team into the ground (which some do claim) is absurd. Most just need to relax and realize this is still one of the most talented teams in the NFL.

See, I hear these strawman arguments...but I want to see the "fire Marvin!" thread started by any frequent poster on this board who can spell his own name. I don't think it exists. There are threads that claim that Mikey is an idiot, I've posted many such, and I maintain this, but not Marvin. I've seen one single "Fire Marvin!" thread that I can remember, started by a probable crackhead, and he was resoundly shouted down by many people on this board including me. Some suggested trading Carson in response, that's how seriously it was taken.

I also don't think many people blame the team for not signing high-priced FAs. Some, but not many. Most of us realize that signing high-priced FAs is not the way to win in today's NFL. If anything, some people think that the Bengals simply spend money on the wrong people, like Bobbie and possibly Willie. Some people complained about Justin, but that disappeared when we realized what the going rate was for FAs - Justin's not top 5 at his position, but he's worth top 5 money from last year, which is what the franchise tag is based on.

So I'm politely calling BS on you! 1) No one wants Marvin fired. 2) No one claims to know more about football than Marvin. 3) Not many people claim that the Bengals underspend, at least on player salaries.

Some of us claim that: 1) Mikey is an idiot, 2) Mikey underspends on scouts, 3) Marvin hasn't improved the D, for some reason (can't argue with results?), 4) Bresnehan is not a good play caller.

If you want to discuss any of those points - which I claim and which I don't believe I'm alone in claiming - feel free. Others may also be willing to argue over the Hamilton County deal and the damned bubble, but I'm not interested.

Perhaps I should have specified. I've read the thread, but not on this board. It was at Bengals.com. Unfortunately, it's too far back now and I can't find the the thread to provide a link for you, but trust me, it was there. Ask Kazkal, I'm sure he read it as well.

As to your polite BS...1.) Yes, yes they do. Some guy that goes by the handle of davidmp on Bengals.com started a thread calling for just that. As unbelievable as that is, I saw it and read through it myself. 2.) Of course nobody comes out and says they know more ab football than Marvin. The point is that they act like they do. The proclamations and declarations made shows that time and time again. 3.) You must not listen to much sports talk radio. Nearly everyday for a month I've had to listen to how Mike Brown is a penny pincher and runs the most frugal organization in all of football. Then there's the accusations that the Bengals are flat out lying to us about their financial situation, sometimes by talk show hosts no less.

As for your claims, those are all well and good and topics like those can be discussed in a rational and intelligent manner. But trust me, I've grown increasingly frustrated with incredibly ignorant Bengals fans on topics such as the ones you deemed BS.

BTW, keep in mind I'm not saying that the posters here at bengalszone are the ones making the ignorant claims (well maybe a couple). In fact, the sound reasoning and intelligent conversation is why I started coming here rather than Bengals.com, where I swear many couldn't tell a football from a baseball.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Perhaps I should have specified. I've read the thread, but not on this board. It was at Bengals.com. Unfortunately, it's too far back now and I can't find the the thread to provide a link for you, but trust me, it was there. Ask Kazkal, I'm sure he read it as well.

As to your polite BS...1.) Yes, yes they do. Some guy that goes by the handle of davidmp on Bengals.com started a thread calling for just that. As unbelievable as that is, I saw it and read through it myself. 2.) Of course nobody comes out and says they know more ab football than Marvin. The point is that they act like they do. The proclamations and declarations made shows that time and time again. 3.) You must not listen to much sports talk radio. Nearly everyday for a month I've had to listen to how Mike Brown is a penny pincher and runs the most frugal organization in all of football. Then there's the flat out accusations that the Bengals are lying to us about their financial situation, sometimes by talk show hosts no less.

As for your claims, those are all well and good and topics like those can be discussed in a rational and intelligent manner. But trust me, I've grown increasingly frustrated with incredibly ignorant Bengals fans on topics such as the ones you deemed BS.

BTW, keep in mind I'm not saying that the posters here at bengalszone are the ones making the ignorant claims (well maybe a couple). In fact, the sound reasoning and intelligent conversation is why I started coming here rather than Bengals.com, where I swear many couldn't tell a football from a baseball.

OK, didn't realize you were talking about the type of filth that populates *other* boards

You do make another good point - I live out of town, so I don't hear Cincinnati talk radio. I probably wouldn't anyway, because that's generally the people who spend an hour on hold to hear themselves babble on the radio for 30 seconds, which generally weeds out anyone with half a brain. The people on this board, however, support Marvin very strongly. Honestly, I can only remember one "fire Marvin!" thread lately, nobody took it seriously.

[CarsonCity]

OK, didn't realize you were talking about the type of filth that populates *other* boards

You do make another good point - I live out of town, so I don't hear Cincinnati talk radio. I probably wouldn't anyway, because that's generally the people who spend an hour on hold to hear themselves babble on the radio for 30 seconds, which generally weeds out anyone with half a brain. The people on this board, however, support Marvin very strongly. Honestly, I can only remember one "fire Marvin!" thread lately, nobody took it seriously.

Fair enough, DC. I've been reading this board for quite some time and the vast majority of you have a very good grasp of the Bengals and football in general. I've learned (and continue to learn) quite a bit about both from you guys.

As for not hearing the local talk radio, consider yourself lucky. I'm a Cincinnati sports junkie and need my daily fix, so I find myself listening to the local talk shows despite wanting to punch my dashboard repeatedly. For the most part, I find this site to be a welcome change.

[Kirkendall]

I'm a Cincinnati sports junkie and need my daily fix, so I find myself listening to the local talk shows despite wanting to punch my dashboard repeatedly.

You and me both.

[Kazkal]

David Pollack he was under achiveing before he got hurt and it sucks that he got hurt.

He was a DE making a switch to a new postion after missing much needed camp time and injurys that slowed down the process....

[The PatternMaster]

Off-Sided Offseason

Written by Joe Bussell

When is the last time you walked into the doctor’s office and thought that you knew more about your body than he did? You don’t go into your accountant’s office and tell him how he needs to do your taxes right?

Not a chance! They went to school for years to learn how to do what they do. That’s why you pay them money, because when it comes to those things, they’re just smarter than you.

So what makes Cincinnati Bengals’ fans think they know more than the organization’s front office?

Ignorance, that’s what.

Cincinnati doesn’t have a so-called General Manager, but that’s not a bad thing. The Bengals don’t rely on one person to make personnel decisions; instead the organization has a team that works together to make sure the right players are signed to fit their system. Included in those decisions are Mike Brown (President), Paul Brown (Vice President of Player Personnel), Katie Blackburn (Executive Vice President), Troy Blackburn (Director of Business Development), and Marvin Lewis and the rest of the Cincinnati coaching staff. That’s a lot of people who are a lot smarter than you, me, and the entire Bengals fan base.

I’m not calling Bengals’ fans stupid. I’m just saying don’t be naïve.

Since Marvin Lewis left the Baltimore Ravens in 2003, and became the head coach of the Bengals, how many bad offseasons has Cincy had? Better yet, how many offseasons has the team had that haven’t been good?

None! Yet, somehow, Cincinnati fans still think they know more about football than the people that are paid to make these decisions. If the fans were that smart, they would be employees, not fans.

Instead, I peruse Bengals.com message boards to find fans disgusted with the release of Brian Simmons who was No.1 on the depth chart at all three linebacker positions, the loss of Eric Steinbach to the rival Browns, and the “lack of effort” to re-sign one of the best cover safeties in the league, Kevin Kaesviharn.

The fact is, Cincy tried everything it could to retain Kaesviharn, but in the end the decision wasn’t up them. Simmons was the front office’s decision, and while we as fans may not agree on it, I’m sure the front office and coaching staff knows its players better than we do.

I agree that after all of the players released or that left through free agency, and the lack of signings during free agency, it can look like Cincy is having a not-so-good offseason. That’s not how the Bengals see it and that’s not how the fans should see it.

Whatever happened to “In Marvin We Trust?”

The major aspect of the Cincy front office that needs to be pointed out is the belief that it is better to build through the Draft than through free agency. This isn’t the first time the Bengals have been quiet during the free agency period. Actually, I can’t remember a time when Cincinnati made any noise in free agency. I have noticed that the front office has a bit of magic when it comes to draft picks. The talent has been outstanding.

Takeo Spikes is the first name to come to mind. Then there’s Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmanzadeh (7th round pick by the way), Justin Smith, Carson Palmer, Chris Henry, David Pollack (he was a monster before he was hurt), Odell Thurman (likely to return since Simmons was released), and just last offseason, Jonathan Joseph. Let’s just say the Bengals have an eye for talent in the Draft.

Cincinnati fans need to understand that the Bengals have faith that Ethan Kilmer, Herana-Daze Jones, or John Busing will step up to fill the hole left by the departed Kaesviharn. Call it building from the inside. Cincy drafts young players to develop within its specific system, so when the time comes for them to step up, they know what exactly what they’re doing.

A perfect example is the linebacking corp last season that ended up with enough holes to sink the Titanic. A string of injuries and one huge suspension to Odell Thurman caused Marvin Lewis and his staff to resort to Rashaad Jeanty, Caleb Miller, and Ahmad Brooks to keep the Cincy ship from taking on water. The fill-ins played well and showed why the Bengals’ coaching staff believes its team is as deep as any other in the league.

Get off Marvin’s back. He knows what he’s doing, or have you forgotten he hasn’t had a losing season in Cincinnati? You can have your opinion, but just remember that there’s a reason you’re at home reading my article and not in the front office helping make decisions.

Great article, I've started threads in a similar vein labasting so-called fans who have called Marvin a piece of s**t(I think that was why I got banned from another bengals MB) because we didn't pay Steinbach 50 million dollars, Brad St. Louis can't do his only f**king job when it counts the most, and Shayne can't make a chip shot field goal to send us to the playoffs. It's like the majority of these idiot fans, yes I calling them what they are, have alzhiemers. They act as if what Marvin has accomplished isn't the sole reason why they are even interested in the Bengals.

People should realize that teams that are active in FA are active for a reason, the reason being is that they suck. The 49ers, Browns, etc..are all teams that were forced to over pay for marginal at best players because they have no other viable option.

I love the how the Bengals re-sign their own, build through the draft, and develop their own players. I would love to see if Indiana Jones or Busing or Kilmer can fill the suddenly great Kevin K. shoes(Am I the only one who remembers when he was the whipping boy a few years ago???).

Before last season I thought that Simmons was our best defensive player, but he got old and brittle last year and he was due a pay day that the people who are paid millions of dollars to evaluate talent felt that he wasn't worth it. Frankly his lack of desire to make it back on the playing field last year disappointed me, maybe it's the idoit fan in me who can discount someone's mental and physical health or lack their of.

So it comes down to who knows more about the interworking of the Bengals, me a fan who keeps abreast of the going-on's in PBS through the media, or the people who actually WORK in PBS. Call me a homer but I'm going to swallow my ego and go with the coaching staff as they have proven to be quite capable, like I knew who the hell Rashad Jeanty was. Until Marvin has consectutive losing seasons I will blindly follow him, I still wear my "In Marvin We Trust" t-shirt and "Marvinade" is still my beverage of choice.

Shucks, I guess I missed that "David Pollack was a beast" era before he got hurt, and the great offseason that was last year.

This guy's tone and the "substance" in his article is purely opinion based...

I judge Marvin on his results now - honeymoon is over.

Another .500 season is not acceptable.

We'll see.

See this is what I don't understand, were do fans like this come off with the ultimatiums?? Were are these suddenly high standards coming from, in case you forgot Marvin took over a team that went 2-14 and was the worst franchise in all of pro sports for several reasons.

It takes time to build a winner, which is what Marvin is doing in a place that most coaches thought was incapable of winning. Last year was a year in which anything that could go wrong did, it started with Carson getting taken out in the playoffs and ended with Shayne missing a 39 yard field goal.

s**t happens people, get over it and move forward or get stuck looking the past. After last season I can't wait to get the '07 season started and I have plenty of reason to be optimistic about our chances, the glass is definitely half full.

[HoosierCat]

See this is what I don't understand, were do fans like this come off with the ultimatiums?? Were are these suddenly high standards coming from, in case you forgot Marvin took over a team that went 2-14 and was the worst franchise in all of pro sports for several reasons.

Well, what's wrong with high standards? That 2-14 season you cite was five seasons ago come this September. Shouldn't we expect at least a single playoff victory -- or even more than one appearance -- if things have truly turned around? Geoff had this fun fact in a recent column:

But the fact remains that since the 1970 merger, any coach that hasn’t won a playoff game in his first five seasons with a team has never led that team to a Super Bowl title.

[The PatternMaster]

See this is what I don't understand, were do fans like this come off with the ultimatiums?? Were are these suddenly high standards coming from, in case you forgot Marvin took over a team that went 2-14 and was the worst franchise in all of pro sports for several reasons.

Well, what's wrong with high standards? That 2-14 season you cite was five seasons ago come this September. Shouldn't we expect at least a single playoff victory -- or even more than one appearance -- if things have truly turned around? Geoff had this fun fact in a recent column:

But the fact remains that since the 1970 merger, any coach that hasn’t won a playoff game in his first five seasons with a team has never led that team to a Super Bowl title.

nothing is wrong with high standards, but there is something wrong with unrealistic expectations. Did you expect Marvin to win the SuperBowl in his 3rd year after taking over what many in the NFL believe to be the worst franchise in all of sports.

If you think that your standards or expectations are higher than Marvin's or anyone elses in PBS then you are mistaken, they want to win so badly that they literally are spending millions of dollars to do so, how much have u invested in the Bengals? Not trying to be a prick but just trying to give u some perspective.

Marvin changed the culture and in doing so he set the bar so high that going 8-8 is like going 4-12 or 2-14, he should be praised for his accomplishments not given ultimatiums and questions of his abilities to get the job done. He is more than capable and he will have success has a head coach here or some other place, after the 90's I glad we have a coach like Marvin because I remember the other options it ain't a pleasant memory.

[HairOnFire]

Well, what's wrong with high standards? That 2-14 season you cite was five seasons ago come this September. Shouldn't we expect at least a single playoff victory -- or even more than one appearance -- if things have truly turned around?

Well there's the rub as Marvin Lewis had nothing to do with the 2-14 season. That record is simply a measuring stick of how bad and unmotivated the team he inherited really was. Amazingly he managed to turn that outfit into a playoff contender almost overnight, and after turning the offense over to a new near-rookie QB managed to win the franchises first division title in year three. So we're talking about a one-season slip here, not a 5-year record of futility...as you seem to be suggesting.

And as PatternMaster points out, despite a season where eveything that could go wrong actually did Lewis had the perfectly positioned at 8-5 to make the playoffs again. Granted, the Bengals lost three straight games and managed to look ridiculous doing it, but that 3 game failure isn't the fault of familiar whipping boy Mike Brown or even Marvin Lewis. No, that failure can largely be placed at the feet of popular players that few of you are willing to criticize. In short, Carson Palmer tanked it up down the stretch, Chad Johnson made more mistakes than big plays, rock-steady long snapper Brad St.Louis crumbled under pressure, and one of the very best placekickers in the entire NFL, Shayne Graham, missed a fairly easy kick that if made would have made this discussion impossible.

No kidding, if the results of a single play were reversed we'd be talking about a team coming off of back-to-back playoff appearances. Instead, we get a mindless rehash of Mike Brown being too cheap to buy bigger towels and speculation that the coming season is already doomed.

[HoosierCat]

nothing is wrong with high standards, but there is something wrong with unrealistic expectations. Did you expect Marvin to win the SuperBowl in his 3rd year after taking over what many in the NFL believe to be the worst franchise in all of sports.

No. But we aren't talking about his third year, we are talking about his fifth year. And what is "unrealistic" for this season? Is it a winning season? A playoff loss like 05? A playoff victory? A conference Championship? A Super Bowl loss? A Super Bowl win? I think if you ask around here, you'll find most people feel that the minimum for success is a return to the playoffs. It that "unrealistic"?

If you think that your standards or expectations are higher than Marvin's or anyone elses in PBS then you are mistaken, they want to win so badly that they literally are spending millions of dollars to do so, how much have u invested in the Bengals? Not trying to be a prick but just trying to give u some perspective.

Where did I say my "standards were higher than Marvin's or the FO's"? I did say that my standards were higher than just having a good offseason, but that ought to go without saying. As for spending millions of dollars, well, the majority of the money being "spent" by the Bengals is the players' money to begin with. It's their cut of total NFL revenues; all the teams do is dispense it. The real question is how they dispense it, and the Bengals' record on that is, to be generous, mixed.

Marvin changed the culture and in doing so he set the bar so high that going 8-8 is like going 4-12 or 2-14, he should be praised for his accomplishments not given ultimatiums and questions of his abilities to get the job done. He is more than capable and he will have success has a head coach here or some other place, after the 90's I glad we have a coach like Marvin because I remember the other options it ain't a pleasant memory.

Well, whether Marvin has really changed the culture remains to be seen. We've had two seasons end in disarray, and from what Marvin has said in recent days, there remains a lot of instilling-the-right-attitude work to go.

As for those "other options," all I can say is, we've been here before. This debate has been going on since long since Marvin was hired. If you want plesant memories from the dark years, ask old-timers like me about the heady days of 1996, when the Bengals under new coach Bruce Coslet cut a swath of destruction through the league. Or even the following year, when despite Boomer's defection to MNF the Bengals remained contenders, falling out only after three heartbreaking losses (by a combined 8 points) near the end of the year. And in the following draft we would get Spikes and Simmons and Foley, instantly creating (we hoped) one of the best LB units in the league. And then...

...well, we all know how it turned out. Hopefully, things turn out better this time around. But I hope you won't mind if I wait to see it before I believe it.

Well there's the rub as Marvin Lewis had nothing to do with the 2-14 season.

I never said he did. Pattern brought that up.

No, that failure can largely be placed at the feet of popular players that few of you are willing to criticize. In short, Carson Palmer tanked it up down the stretch, Chad Johnson made more mistakes than big plays, rock-steady long snapper Brad St.Louis crumbled under pressure, and one of the very best placekickers in the entire NFL, Shayne Graham, missed a fairly easy kick that if made would have made this discussion impossible.

Well, don't include me in the above. I was one of the few who lambasted our highly paid offense for not getting the job done after the season...and was promptly shouted down by the blame-the-defense crowd.

[Kirkendall]

No. But we aren't talking about his third year, we are talking about his fifth year. And what is "unrealistic" for this season? Is it a winning season? A playoff loss like 05? A playoff victory? A conference Championship? A Super Bowl loss? A Super Bowl win? I think if you ask around here, you'll find most people feel that the minimum for success is a return to the playoffs. It that "unrealistic"?

Sorry bro. I want undefeated season with an average win margin of 30 points or more and a Kelly Washington dance after every touchdown. If I don't get my way, then I'll have a temper tantrum and be featured on an article that classifies an entire group of fans using one single website that bans people for farting louder than a standard blender.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

What HC Said - and I am not just saying that because it's aimed at Hair, but tend to agree with the above, very rational statements (something I'm not always good at).

Also, let's remember it doesn't take more than one or two offseasons these days to turn an NFL team around - literally - if you really want to. This isn't college with 4-5 year plans anymore. Marvin's had plenty of time - let's see some real results or get someone in here who can get them. Tired of the low standards. No one cares about 8-8 seasons.

We can also bash the offense (deservedly so to an extent) for last December's failures - but let's not forget the Indy game where the defense was atrocious, for instance. Or the Pitt game where the defense and ST's blew that game completely in the end, and once again let Willie run wild. Shayne needs to buck up also and make those kicks - or get someone in here who can make them when they count.

And I also think the o-line was responsible for much of the problems, but seems to go with a free pass for some reason - it's a big reason why Rudi couldn't run consistently enough, and Chad only averaged 30 yards the last 3 weeks of the season - Carson had no time to throw and was pummelled routinely. Why do you think he ended the two previous seasons with injury? What have they done to upgrade the o-line? As of now it's been downgraded...again. I fear that may be the biggest offseason blunder.

[HairOnFire]

Also, let's remember it doesn't take more than one or two offseasons these days to turn an NFL team around - literally - if you really want to. This isn't college with 4-5 year plans anymore. Marvin's had plenty of time - let's see some real results or get someone in here who can get them. Tired of the low standards. No one cares about 8-8 seasons.

Well there's the rub. Are you smart enough to recognize better results when you see them? Based upon your posts I'd say....no.