Akili Smith

[HairOnFire]

I'm sorry is this is not Mai tais and yahtzee enough for ya Hair.

No apology required...or understood.

Feel free to discuss the "Dark Ages" all you want. After all, it's part of the Bengals history. I'll even add my two cents from time to time if I find the subject interesting enough. But here's the rub. I've been a Bengal fan since 1968 and the "Dark Ages" don't define for me what it means to be a Bengal fan. Just because the Bengals were as bad as it gets for that long I don't feel compelled to burden the current team with baggage they don't deserve.

In short, I'm over it.

And most of you aren't.

Thus, I laugh at you.

And in return you guys call me Pollyanna.

Balance.

[Jet23]

I'm sorry is this is not Mai tais and yahtzee enough for ya Hair.

No apology required...or understood.

Feel free to discuss the "Dark Ages" all you want. After all, it's part of the Bengals history. I'll even add my two cents from time to time if I find the subject interesting enough. But here's the rub. I've been a Bengal fan since 1968 and the "Dark Ages" don't define for me what it means to be a Bengal fan. Just because the Bengals were as bad as it gets for that long I don't feel compelled to burden the current team with baggage they don't deserve.

In short, I'm over it.

And most of you aren't.

Thus, I laugh at you.

And in return you guys call me Pollyanna.

Balance.

Being over it is exactly what MB is banking on. You may be laughing at us, but he is laughing at you.

[HairOnFire]

Being over it is exactly what MB is banking on. You may be laughing at us, but he is laughing at you.

Yeah, unlike poor old gullible me you're really showing him.

[Jet23]

Being over it is exactly what MB is banking on. You may be laughing at us, but he is laughing at you.

Yeah, unlike poor old gullible me you're really showing him.

You may or may not be poor and/or old, but you're definitely not gullible. After all, you've been a Bengals fan since 1968... Do ya want a cookie?

[HairOnFire]

Do ya want a cookie?

Sure, but wouldn't a bitter pill be more appropriate? After all, you're trying to defend the scathing message you're constantly sending Mike Brown by being a hyper-critical fan on a message board he doesn't read.

[duus]

I throw up in my mouth a little each time I see a post entitled 'Akili Smith' continue to get comments added to it.

[Stripes]

I suppose Mikey sits in his dark, gloomy office calculating the exact ratio of effort to profit he can employ to keep the money rolling in without trying to improve the team.

I'm also over it. That doesn't mean I've forgotten 4-12, 3-13, or 2-14. It means I realize that nothing that happened during that era is relevant to present Bengals discussion.

[Jet23]

I suppose Mikey sits in his dark, gloomy office calculating the exact ratio of effort to profit he can employ to keep the money rolling in without trying to improve the team.

I'm also over it. That doesn't mean I've forgotten 4-12, 3-13, or 2-14. It means I realize that nothing that happened during that era is relevant to present Bengals discussion.

Here's a relevant Bengal discussion. Maybe the reason Marvin has to take chances on talented troubled souls is because Mike Brown is unwilling to spend the money for talented, proven, strong character FA's. If you do not believe that Mike Brown is the worst owner (o.k., he may be tied with Bill Bidwell) in all of pro sports, than you are simply fooling yourself. Say salary cap and I am going to puke in my mouth. Other teams recogize that you have to work around the cap when you have a chance for a title. The difference between MB and other Owners is that they have a sense of pride. Mike Brown is an Accountant that was handed a franchise by a great man. He runs the team like an Accountant, not like a man that is interested in anything other than money. It's sort of like how John Allen tried to run the Reds.

It kills me that many of you believe that one day Mike woke up and proclaimed 'I am not going to be cheap anymore'. Nope, it is because of the fans that stopped accepting the crap product that forced his hand. HE IS THE SAME PERSON PEOPLE. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid and I can guarantee they will not be competitive for long.

[Stripes]

Here's a relevant Bengal discussion. Maybe the reason Marvin has to take chances on talented troubled souls is because Mike Brown is unwilling to spend the money for talented, proven, strong character FA's.

No disrespect, but that just sounds ludicrous to me. I find it much more plausible that Marvin has drafted character risks because they are talented.

If you do not believe that Mike Brown is the worst owner (o.k., he may be tied with Bill Bidwell) in all of pro sports, than you are simply fooling yourself.

During the '90s he certainly made some horrible decisions with coaches he hired and players he drafted. He got it right with Marvin though, and his approach has changed since.

Say salary cap and I am going to puke in my mouth. Other teams recogize that you have to work around the cap when you have a chance for a title. The difference between MB and other Owners is that they have a sense of pride.

Here we go with the "Mikey doesn't care" thing. Isn't it more than a bit juvenile to assume Mikey doesn't care as much as other owners simply because his strategies with the cap were at one time unorthodox (and are now the norm)?

Mike Brown is an Accountant that was handed a franchise by a great man. He runs the team like an Accountant, not like a man that is interested in anything other than money. It's sort of like how John Allen tried to run the Reds.

How so? What does Mike Brown do as an owner that brings you to make that statement? How is he so different in philosophy from the Rooneys or Bill Polian?

It kills me that many of you believe that one day Mike woke up and proclaimed 'I am not going to be cheap anymore'.

He never was cheap. He was stupid.

Nope, it is because of the fans that stopped accepting the crap product that forced his hand. HE IS THE SAME PERSON PEOPLE. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid and I can guarantee they will not be competitive for long.

You know why I don't think that attitude applies to this modern Bengals team? Carson Palmer, Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson, Willie Anderson, Jeremi Johnson, Levi Jones, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Bobbie Williams, Johnathan Joseph, Sam Adams, Justin Smith, Robert Geathers, Madieu Williams, Dexter Jackson, and Marvin Lewis.

[HairOnFire]

It kills me that many of you believe that one day Mike woke up and proclaimed 'I am not going to be cheap anymore'. Nope, it is because of the fans that stopped accepting the crap product that forced his hand.

So fans like you actually forced Mike Brown to change his evil penny pinching ways, and the Bengals will only remain competitive as long as you remain vigilant?

That might be the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards.

Perhaps you can teach the rest of us how to force our own opinions about building a winning team and running a business on a presumably powerless team owner.

[Kirkendall]

It kills me that many of you believe that one day Mike woke up and proclaimed 'I am not going to be cheap anymore'. Nope, it is because of the fans that stopped accepting the crap product that forced his hand.

So fans like you actually forced Mike Brown to change his evil penny pinching ways, and the Bengals will only remain competitive as long as you remain vigilant?

Actually Hair, that would be me. Jedi mind tricks work well on the weak-minded. (Jedi hand wave) Now, go make me a sandwich.

[Clackwoods]

To go OT and address another issue raised in this thread - Tim Couch always sucked. Even in high school, the few times he faced a decent team with a good scheme he didn't do so hot. Systems QB in college. These things don't bode well for the future. I'm a UK fan, but still have to face facts.

Are you a f**king idiot? Tim Couch held almost every highschool record in the country and he was the number one prospect coming out. I went to the same school as him, and our dad's grew up together so my opinion may be a little biased. I went to his state regional game his senior year when he broke the touchdown record, I am pretty sure the team they played won the state title that year and he had like three td's and 0 interceptions against very good competition. He only played two years in college and he helped bring the UK football program alive for a couple years which was continued up until fat boy Lorezon left. As far as the NFL, yea he was a wash out. But put him on the Eagles, or let him play with Chris Carter and Randy Moss and not the browns who's number one reciever was Kevin Johnson, and who's best defensive player has his career derailed by a flag throwing ref.

No I'm not an idiot. I personally saw him live get demolished in the high school playoffs by a defense that threw a complex (for high school) scheme at him and he couldn't read it - sound familiar? Stats in high school against crappy teams doesn't mean s**t.

I can tell you for certain they didn't win state his senior year because my high school knocked them out and I saw it live. Look it up if you want to, they didn't even get to the title game. http://www.khsaa.org/records/football/pastwinners.pdf Check your info before you call someone an idiot.

He was a systems QB in high school. He was a systems QB in Mumme's scheme. When he got to the pros and wasn't playing in the run and shoot anymore, he fell on his face. Big schock.

Oh, and just wondering, why the severe anger issue when anyone suggests Little Timmy sucks? Have a man-crush on him in high school or something?

Hey dude,

Sorry about the post. I was havin a bad day and I was a bit intoxicated. We are all Bengals fans here. My bad. I am gonna save my tension for the Ravens who are our only real challenge in the AFC North now. I also hate the bills cuz my buddies are fans.

[Jet23]

It kills me that many of you believe that one day Mike woke up and proclaimed 'I am not going to be cheap anymore'. Nope, it is because of the fans that stopped accepting the crap product that forced his hand.

So fans like you actually forced Mike Brown to change his evil penny pinching ways, and the Bengals will only remain competitive as long as you remain vigilant?

That might be the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards.

Perhaps you can teach the rest of us how to force our own opinions about building a winning team and running a business on a presumably powerless team owner.

I suppose there is a certain amount of bliss associated with being a sheep. You got me Hair. One Day Mike woke up and thought 'you know, it really isn't fair that Ki Jana Carter has to buy full sized towels for the showers, because I am too cheap. I also don't think it is right that professional ball players have to re-use jocks. You know, maybe it is time to start flying potential free agents first class, since most of them can't fit in the regular seats. And maybe I won't send an assistant coach driving a Festiva to pick them up'. He only changed when the fans stopped showing up. And yes, I did stop showing up. I guess that makes me a 'fair weather fan'. I have only been a fan since the early 80's, so my opinion obviously means less than your opinion Hair.

I will give him credit for hiring Marvin, but I am not ready to hand him executive of the year just yet. Believe me, I hope the Bengals do win a championship, but it will be in spite of Mike Brown - not because of him. And did someone actually mention Brown and Bill Polian in the same sentence??? Get off the rope kid.

[HoosierCat]

One Day Mike woke up and thought 'you know, it really isn't fair that Ki Jana Carter has to buy full sized towels for the showers, because I am too cheap. I also don't think it is right that professional ball players have to re-use jocks. You know, maybe it is time to start flying potential free agents first class, since most of them can't fit in the regular seats. And maybe I won't send an assistant coach driving a Festiva to pick them up'. He only changed when the fans stopped showing up.

Mikey has a well-deserved rep as a skinflint, but I think that to a certain extent he has a point. I mean, what's the league minimum these days, $300k or so? If Big Willie (and IIRC it was him not Ki-Jana) wants a towel big enough to cover his acre-wide butt, he can afford one. Jocks aren't hard to come by, either. When the annual outlay for player salaries is more than $100 million per team, it's tough to work up a lot of sympathy for guys griping that they don't have a stool at their locker or that the team didn't send a limo to pick them up at the airport.

That said, treating players like royalty has been standard operating procedure in he league since the start of FA, and Brown's refusal to do so is what got him tagged a cheapskate. And the fact the Bengals weren't competitive at all on the amenities or facilities fronts for a long time certainly did as much as their poor performance on the field and the Browns' lowball contract tactics did to dissuade FAs from signing here.

But he did spend money on the field -- the problem was (and still is) that he spends it poorly. If you want some relevancy of Akili Smith to this year, look no further than that comment of Coslet's I posted in my initial reply. That's emblematic of the Bengals' approach in the Lost Decade: an almost absolute reliance on every new rookie to be the big difference-maker, the guy who would transform the team into a winner. They're still doing that this time around. Where's the fix for our abysmal defense? Well, it's going to be all these Pro Bowlers we draft next month, plus all those Pro Bowlers we drafted last year but were hurt, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's "we'll go as far as Chris Houston (or Darrelle Revis or Patrick Willis or Frostee Rucker or whoever) can take us."

[HairOnFire]

He only changed when the fans stopped showing up. And yes, I did stop showing up. I guess that makes me a 'fair weather fan'. I have only been a fan since the early 80's, so my opinion obviously means less than your opinion Hair.

Fair weather fan? Sheesh, are you now trying to portray yourself as some noble yet tragic martyr figure? Because quite frankly I think I liked you better when you pretended to be some member of an underground organization that forced Mike Brown to change the way he runs his business.

I mentioned being a Bengal fan since '68 for one reason and one reason only. In short, I've been a fan alot longer than many who have only known the "Dark Decade". And as an older fart I know that success in sports usually comes and goes like the tide. You're up for awhile and then you're down, and if you're down for longer than most it sometimes means no more than you missed or wasted an opportunity to experience an upward trend. Clearly the Bengals missed more than one, but you'll never convince me that the Bengals missed their opportunities on purpose.

Prolonged losing in sports isn't nearly as profitable as winning is, and Mike Brown knew that long before you stopped showing up at games. In fact, if he's conservative to a fault then it's likely a result of playing in a small market featuring a large segment of it's fanbase who hates the Bengals almost as much as they embrace them, and idiotic local poiticians who couldn't live with the idea of losing the Bengals, but now can't live the deal they negotiated.

[HairOnFire]

But he did spend money on the field -- the problem was (and still is) that he spends it poorly. If you want some relevancy of Akili Smith to this year, look no further than that comment of Coslet's I posted in my initial reply. That's emblematic of the Bengals' approach in the Lost Decade: an almost absolute reliance on every new rookie to be the big difference-maker, the guy who would transform the team into a winner.

Frankly, so what? There are about 25 or 30 NFL teams that could make the case that they'll go no further than their starting QB will take them, and that's especially true of teams that are fronted by players taken in the top five of their drafts.

It's not every new rookie that is counted on to lead the team or transform an inept unit into a world-beater. In fact, whoever the Bengals select in the coming draft is likely to have no more expectations placed upon him than any other 1st or 2nd round pick. That rookie will be expected to earn a starting job at some point during the year and will be given a reasonable amount of time to develope into a quality player. But he won't be expected to lead this team anywhere because the team isn't going to be built around them in the same way that it's built around Carson Palmer.

In short, they call 'em franchise QB's for a reason.

[Jet23]

He only changed when the fans stopped showing up. And yes, I did stop showing up. I guess that makes me a 'fair weather fan'. I have only been a fan since the early 80's, so my opinion obviously means less than your opinion Hair.

Fair weather fan? Sheesh, are you now trying to portray yourself as some noble yet tragic martyr figure? Because quite frankly I think I liked you better when you pretended to be some member of an underground organization that forced Mike Brown to change the way he runs his business.

I mentioned being a Bengal fan since '68 for one reason and one reason only. In short, I've been a fan alot longer than many who have only known the "Dark Decade". And as an older fart I know that success in sports usually comes and goes like the tide. You're up for awhile and then you're down, and if you're down for longer than most it sometimes means no more than you missed or wasted an opportunity to experience an upward trend. Clearly the Bengals missed more than one, but you'll never convince me that the Bengals missed their opportunities on purpose.

Prolonged losing in sports isn't nearly as profitable as winning is, and Mike Brown knew that long before you stopped showing up at games. In fact, if he's conservative to a fault then it's likely a result of playing in a small market featuring a large segment of it's fanbase who hates the Bengals almost as much as they embrace them, and idiotic local poiticians who couldn't live with the idea of losing the Bengals, but now can't live the deal they negotiated.

That is where you are wrong Hair. In the NFL, there is virtually zero correlation between success and profitability. Take 1998 for example. I pick that year because it is dead smack in the middle of their futility, or 'dark years'. According to Forbes, the Bengals were the 12th most valuable NFL team. Well ahead of successful teams (at the time) such as the Jags, 49ers, Patriots, Bills, Packers, Vikings, Falcons, Chiefs... It's called revenue sharing. Revenue sharing is, and always has been, Mike Brown's best friend. This means that other teams can make him money; all he has to do is hang on to it. And we all know how adept he is at that. Was it a rumor that he was called out by the Commissioner where he was told that he had to start spending money? I agree with you about the politicians, but there is no doubt that MB made every attempt to cover up his profits. Otherwise, why would anyone give him a free ride when he is making so much. But if the Commissioners (one of which is currently under his employ) were stupid enough to sign off on it...shame on them. It just illustrates how good Brown is at poor mouthing. Have you ever heard another Owner mention the money that had to be put aside for greivances and injury settlements? Maybe I have been living in a box, but I have only heard that associated with Mike Brown.

Look, I'm really not trying to start crap here. I do not think MB is a bad person. He is protecting his family business and apparently doing a damn good job at it. Every sports owner has to weigh winning versus profitability. Most Owners are willing to trade a profit for a championship. Mike Brown will never trade a dollar for a win. Not no way, not no how! And if you believe otherwise, you simply haven't been paying attention.

Does that mean they have zero chance of winning? No. Again, the NFL bails Mike out here as well. Thanks to Pete's parity dream, the NFL levels the playing field via the draft & scheduling as well as revenue sharing. All I am saying is that all things being equal, the Bengals have the 32nd (possibly tied for 31st) best chance of success in the NFL. This is the sad reality of being a Bengal fan, but a fan I am.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Frankly, so what? There are about 25 or 30 NFL teams that could make the case that they'll go no further than their starting QB will take them, and that's especially true of teams that are fronted by players taken in the top five of their drafts.

In short, they call 'em franchise QB's for a reason.

Yes, we all know this - but throwing "franchise Qb's" into crappy systems with no support and bad defenses, due to skimping and poor drafting/scouting, make it all moot, as Mike Brown proved to us for well over 10 years in a row.

[HoosierCat]

It's not every new rookie that is counted on to lead the team or transform an inept unit into a world-beater. In fact, whoever the Bengals select in the coming draft is likely to have no more expectations placed upon him than any other 1st or 2nd round pick. That rookie will be expected to earn a starting job at some point during the year and will be given a reasonable amount of time to develope into a quality player. But he won't be expected to lead this team anywhere because the team isn't going to be built around them in the same way that it's built around Carson Palmer.

I wasn't aware Carson Palmer played defense. Of course every defensive rook the Bengals have taken has been expected to be The Rock Upon Which The D Will Be Built. It was true for Wilkinson, it was true for Spikes and Simmons, it was true for Justin, and it was true for our latest round of defensive saviors, Lord Pollack and Joseph. And this year's pick will most definitely not have the luxury of waiting until some undefined point in the year to earn a starting job. With vets who abilities are well-established and no FA help in sight, it's draft pick(s) to the rescue...again.

Our D will go as far as The New Hope -- and perhaps a couple Junior Hopes from later rounds -- and such notaries as as "Fingers" Nicholson, "Non-Dairy Dessert" Rucker and, of course, Ethan "the next Kevin Kaesviharn" Kilmer will take it. Which I estimate will be about 31st or 32nd in the league.

[Stripes]

Yes, we all know this - but throwing "franchise Qb's" into crappy systems with no support and bad defenses, due to skimping and poor drafting/scouting, make it all moot, as Mike Brown proved to us for well over 10 years in a row.

I'll give you the poor drafting and also throw in poor coaching, but how did "skimping" play any part? He is still "skimping" in similar fashion, after having improved the drafting and coaching, and the differences have been more than noticeable.

[HairOnFire]

Every sports owner has to weigh winning versus profitability. Most Owners are willing to trade a profit for a championship. Mike Brown will never trade a dollar for a win. Not no way, not no how! And if you believe otherwise, you simply haven't been paying attention.

Perhaps you're the one who hasn't been paying attention. After all, the contract extension that Carson Palmer signed made him the 5th highest earning athlete in all of sports at the time it was signed. And several other Bengal players have also cashed in big including 9 out of 11 offensive starters in the last two years. In short, the Bengals have paid a heavy price to ensure that they didn't lose players who represented a team strength to richer teams.

Frankly, if the Bengals weren't interested in winning they could very easily have let a normal number of those offensive starters leave and explained it all away as something that was unavoidable in todays NFL. Or they could have let them go while explaining that the money was needed to build a defense that might be a team strength in the distant future. Instead, they re-signed starter after starter because those players gave the Bengals the best chance to win today AND tomorrow, and if that strategy hasn't resulted in a championship then maybe you weren't paying attention to the 2-14 team that Marvin inherited, or the fact that the Bengals haven't had a losing season since he arrived.

[Stripes]

And did someone actually mention Brown and Bill Polian in the same sentence??? Get off the rope kid.

Sure, ignore the question.

You're very impressionable.

[HoosierCat]

Frankly, if the Bengals weren't interested in winning they could very easily have let a normal number of those offensive starters leave and explained it all away as something that was unavoidable in todays NFL.

Not really. At least, not as some kind of cost-saving move. Remember, there's a minimum that teams have to lay out for player salaries (currently about $96m). So the Bengals were going to have to pay that money to someone. May as well throw it at the good players you have, otherwise you'd just have to hand a big extension to someone like Keiwan (or go play at the top of FA).

[HairOnFire]

I wasn't aware Carson Palmer played defense. Of course every defensive rook the Bengals have taken has been expected to be The Rock Upon Which The D Will Be Built.

It's becoming painfully clear that there's plenty you're not aware of.

That said, you've repeatedly pointed to how close the Bengals remarks about Palmer are to those they once made about Akili so I shouldn't have to point out to you which position both of those players filled. Both were drafted to be starting QB's...the most important position on the team. Both were expected to become team leaders based upon the position they played, and to a much lesser degree the money they were being paid. Thus, any attempt on your part to claim that a Jonathan Joseph or David Pollack is considered as important or vital to the teams chances of success borders on lunacy.

Bottom Line: The Bengals have expectations of their 1st round picks that are no different than any other team in the NFL.

[HairOnFire]

Frankly, so what? There are about 25 or 30 NFL teams that could make the case that they'll go no further than their starting QB will take them, and that's especially true of teams that are fronted by players taken in the top five of their drafts.

In short, they call 'em franchise QB's for a reason.

Yes, we all know this - but throwing "franchise Qb's" into crappy systems with no support and bad defenses, due to skimping and poor drafting/scouting, make it all moot, as Mike Brown proved to us for well over 10 years in a row.

Carson Palmer is protected by one of the best and highest paid offensive lines in the NFL, is supported by a very productive running game, throws to one of the deepest groups of wideouts anywhere, and calls plays in one of the most productive offensive systems in the NFL. So using your own standards it appears the Bengals have learned from their past mistakes and are now doing things the right way.

So why doesn't that matter to you? Why does it seem like the only thing that matters to you is finding new ways to whine and complain?

Sheesh, most of you guys should feel lucky if someone called you a fairweather fan....as it implies you're actually fans in the first place.