Why the Bengals had to Tag Justin Smith

[BZBot]

The Bengals made Justin Smith “it” when they tagged him as a franchise player, but why are they committing themselves to paying $8.6 million to a guy who has never had double digit sacks?

Source: http://www.bengalszone.com/article.php?sid=522

[schweinhart]

Worse case the Bengals get another year out of him but the're in a position to trade now. Won't get much in the way of draft picks but could land some players. The Lions are trying to clean house right by letting Dre Bly, James Hall and Marcus Bell seek trades. Bly is 30 with a $4.2 mill salary, Hall is very similar to Justin but coming off torn rotator cuff surgery and Bell is a gap filler fodder, which it wouldn't hurt for the Bengals to have if they don't want Shaun Smith any more.

So for what it would cost to have Justin for one year, they could have these 3 players, most likely improve their overall defense and both teams would be happy.

[Whur CHad At?]

Don't the Bengals have to recieve two 1st round picks compensation even if they trade for players?

[Sportsdoc]

No they can settle for less. We only got a 1st and a 3rd for Big Dummy Dan WIlkinson........................

[HoosierCat]

Worse case the Bengals get another year out of him but the're in a position to trade now.

They didn't tag Justin with the intention of trading him. Oh, if some team comes along and offer the sun, moon, and several stars I'm sure they will take it, but if they were looking to shop a guy around they would have tagged Steinbach.

[Thurmanation]

Speaking of d-linemen, this is kinda random but i just watched the highlights of the bengal-panther game this year that last play geathers blew up the carolina RT then blew up chris brown or whoever there RB was then sacked delhome in a good 3 seconds, nice play by geathers, i had missed this game and never saw highlights due to work.

[James_Brooks21]

That's a horrible decision by the Bengals to Franchise Justin Smith. Justin Smith is consistently caught outside his lane especially on trick plays such as reverses and things like that, have you ever seen Justin blow up such a play? Terrible run stopper unless you count eight to ten yards down field. Disappeared in the second half of the season, especially getting to the quarterback. Can be blocked 90% of the time by just one man. Where do we benefit with having Justin; we could have signed two to three players to shore up stuff for the price Justin is getting. Justin has played at second or third round standards since he got with the Bengals not the fourth pick in the draft.

[HoosierCat]

That's a horrible decision by the Bengals to Franchise Justin Smith.

Maybe. OTOH, let's conduct a small thought experiment.

Let's say the Bengals don't tag Justin, or Steinbach (I don't think anyone here would defend the proposition that he's "worth" LT money, right?).

So it's, say, March 10. Justin has been signed to a big-bucks deal by St. Louis. Steinbach is a Brown. The Bengals never had a shot at guys like Briggs or Samuel since they got tagged.

They talked to Clements, but someone -- say there 9ers and their $37m in cap space -- ponied up $18-20m guaranteed. He'll get something nuts like that with Asante tagged, now. Thomas may be available, or may not, the Ravens may tag him. But even if not, he'll be big bucks, too. Bills fans are talking about how they have to let London Fletcher-Baker go because they can't afford the $8-10m guaranteed they think he will draw.

If the zillion-year-old LFB will get that, what will Adalius get? $15m? $18m? $20m guaranteed? I don't know, but it almost certainly is beyond anything the bengals have ever shown a willingness to spend.

So it's March 10. Justin and Eric are gone. All the big talents FAs are gone. Even mid-tier guys are getting $4m-$6m/year deals. Is not tagging Justin (or Steiney) still a good decision? We are down two starters and have $8-9m in cap space and no one to spend it on.

[schweinhart]

Worse case the Bengals get another year out of him but the're in a position to trade now.

They didn't tag Justin with the intention of trading him. Oh, if some team comes along and offer the sun, moon, and several stars I'm sure they will take it, but if they were looking to shop a guy around they would have tagged Steinbach.

Obviously Smith was tagged to have available not to trade but the Bengals are in the position to field offers and they should. A healthy James Hall probably wouldn't be a drop off from Justin and should be an upgrade pass rushing. But the fact that a DE challenged team like the Lions is willing to part ways with him might not bode well about his rehab.

Dre Bly, James Hall and Marcus Bell wouldn't exactly be the sun, the moon and the star but their combined salaries for 2007 is about a half mill less than what the tag is for Justin and 3 key positions would be filled for just 1 player -- albeit a solid player who's ability vs. the run is Top 5 in the NFL IMO.

If the intent was to trade a tagged player, no question Steiny was the one and he would have fetched left tackle interest. But no deal with Justin for whoever's fault forced the Bengals to tag the player they know they have to have available to them.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I do agree Justin Smith is probably the most overrated player on the team and will be overpaid, quite possibly the most overrated DE in the league.

I also agree with HC that there's not a lot of other options.

But I would like to see a solid list of all the UFA's, and there's guys like Daniel Graham who could help this team. They're simply going to have to beef up the defense in the draft.

As long as they don't sign Smith long term, I'm not going to cry over it.

But I would like them to pursue an 0-lineman or TE in FA that's worthwhile.

Let's be realistic, this is the Bengals, they are satisfied with 8-8 and a sold out stadium, can just resign their own slobs, and if they have a winning season like 2005 again down the road, that will do for Mike Brown.

He has no interest in putting forth the effort it takes to get a nice core of talent to the Superbowl. I don't see Marvin testing the comfy salary cap mode of the Brown family.

[HoosierCat]

Dre Bly, James Hall and Marcus Bell wouldn't exactly be the sun, the moon and the star but their combined salaries for 2007 is about a half mill less than what the tag is for Justin and 3 key positions would be filled for just 1 player -- albeit a solid player who's ability vs. the run is Top 5 in the NFL IMO.

Sorry, but I just cant get excited by the idea. I'm not convinced Bly would be much of an upgrade over James, Hall as you note is hurt, and Bell = Shaun Smith. Worse, if they did do this, how much do you want to bet that our two day 1 picks end up being a TE and/or RB and/or OG? As much as I'd like to see Zach Miller in stripes, the defense is IMHO still very talent-poor, and the last thing I want to see is them trading one of the few even remotely talented guys on defense for three placeholders so that they are free to ignore the D and tinker with the offense again in the draft

[schweinhart]

Dre Bly, James Hall and Marcus Bell wouldn't exactly be the sun, the moon and the star but their combined salaries for 2007 is about a half mill less than what the tag is for Justin and 3 key positions would be filled for just 1 player -- albeit a solid player who's ability vs. the run is Top 5 in the NFL IMO.

Sorry, but I just cant get excited by the idea. I'm not convinced Bly would be much of an upgrade over James, Hall as you note is hurt, and Bell = Shaun Smith. Worse, if they did do this, how much do you want to bet that our two day 1 picks end up being a TE and/or RB and/or OG? As much as I'd like to see Zach Miller in stripes, the defense is IMHO still very talent-poor, and the last thing I want to see is them trading one of the few even remotely talented guys on defense for three placeholders so that they are free to ignore the D and tinker with the offense again in the draft

They've got a TE dillema either way. A long-term Justin deal should be able to trim about $3.5 mill of his tag # so they've got some latitude in how they can tender RFAs and sign some of their own UFAS -- which is a dwindling list with probably only Marcus Wilkins, Kenny Watson, Kelly, Tony Stewart and K2 now on the radar. Might be enough to lure another TE free agent to fill Kelly's void if he's not re-signed and worse case they have to cut a higher priced vet on defense -- B-Simms, Thornton, O'Neal or B-Rob. Recovery from injuries would help the offense but only the return of Odell is a realistic help on defense (not counting Pollack). With James gone and possibly O'Neal, Bly would fill a void, more likely as left corner than right and lower his hit with O'Neal cut. James Hall can be a widlfire at end and make folks forget all about Justin and Bell a rotational player with needed insurance behind Doublewide Sam. The overall D should be improved for 2007 but it still wouldn't exclude the need to upgrade over Keiwan through the draft or prioritize a LDE to eventually replace B-Rob.

[HoosierCat]

With James gone and possibly O'Neal, Bly would fill a void, more likely as left corner than right and lower his hit with O'Neal cut. James Hall can be a widlfire at end and make folks forget all about Justin and Bell a rotational player with needed insurance behind Doublewide Sam. The overall D should be improved for 2007 but it still wouldn't exclude the need to upgrade over Keiwan through the draft or prioritize a LDE to eventually replace B-Rob.

Sorry, I'm still not buying. With Justin we dont need Hall, we don't need Bell to begin with, and we can get a better DB than Bly on day 1. They still have plenty of room to resign their own RFAs even if Justin plays under the one-year deal.

[HoosierCat]

Let's be realistic, this is the Bengals, they are satisfied with 8-8 and a sold out stadium, can just resign their own slobs, and if they have a winning season like 2005 again down the road, that will do for Mike Brown.

He has no interest in putting forth the effort it takes to get a nice core of talent to the Superbowl. I don't see Marvin testing the comfy salary cap mode of the Brown family.

I don't either...but because I don't see how he could. Marvin isn't the GM. The front office is what it is and does as it does, and Lewis knew that coming in. And like you I don't expect the Benglas to stun us with a change of pace in FA this year, either.

But that said, I don't know that I'd regard them tagging Justin as evidence that Mikey isn't interested in "putting forth the effort it takes to get a nice core of talent to the Superbowl." If, for instance, Adalius Thomas makes it into FA untagged and the Bengals, as usual, cry poverty, yes, there's your sign. But Mikey could easily, and with the enthusiastic approval of lots of fans, maybe even most fans, have let Justin walk and replaced him with some B-Rob-esque scrap-heaper. That would have saved him millions and apparently not cost him a seat in PBS.

*That* would have been true business-as-usual. Remember how even average guys like Sam Shade used to get away because Mikey balked at paying the going rate? Now we have Mikey ponying up franchise coin for a guy who, while good, clearly isn't elite. Back in Shade's day you would have heard him quip that the only way he'd pay that for Justin Smith is if he had a twin brother and it included him, too.

[Stripes]

Let's be realistic, this is the Bengals, they are satisfied with 8-8 and a sold out stadium, can just resign their own slobs, and if they have a winning season like 2005 again down the road, that will do for Mike Brown.

Yeah, of course.

Mike Brown has no interest in fielding a consistent winning team and bringing in playoff revenue every year. Resigning garbage players like Justin Smith is just another example of his annual lazy free agent stance, and his lack of commitment to running the team well.

Absolutely absurd. Get out of the ****ing '90s.

[schweinhart]

With James gone and possibly O'Neal, Bly would fill a void, more likely as left corner than right and lower his hit with O'Neal cut. James Hall can be a widlfire at end and make folks forget all about Justin and Bell a rotational player with needed insurance behind Doublewide Sam. The overall D should be improved for 2007 but it still wouldn't exclude the need to upgrade over Keiwan through the draft or prioritize a LDE to eventually replace B-Rob.

Sorry, I'm still not buying. With Justin we dont need Hall, we don't need Bell to begin with, and we can get a better DB than Bly on day 1. They still have plenty of room to resign their own RFAs even if Justin plays under the one-year deal.

Jeez...you really do want the sun, the moon, and the stars if they don't keep Justin.

But if the estimate is $10 mill cap with Smith playing under the franchise salary about all they can do is sign their RFAs (6 at the $850k min) and their rooks. As for the rest of their UFAs, there might not be enough left to even sign Tony Stewart at the vet min much less K2. There'd be some holes that younguns would have to step right into. Getting a deal done with Justin soon would help them either keep or add players for a couple key spots.

[HoosierCat]

Jeez...you really do want the sun, the moon, and the stars if they don't keep Justin.

Nah. But I said a while back that I would rather see them open the vault for Justin rather than let him go and use the "savings" to sign 2-3 bargain-bin FAs. I don't want to trade him for 2-3, either.

But if the estimate is $10 mill cap with Smith playing under the franchise salary about all they can do is sign their RFAs (6 at the $850k min) and their rooks. As for the rest of their UFAs, there might not be enough left to even sign Tony Stewart at the vet min much less K2. There'd be some holes that younguns would have to step right into. Getting a deal done with Justin soon would help them either keep or add players for a couple key spots.

It certainly would, and hopefully they will. Remember, tho, they haven't made any cuts, either. There's $5m in cap savings to be had in Thornton and Robinson, for example.

[schweinhart]

Not sure the wisdon in cutting either Thornton or B-Rob right now. Jumpy is an unproven run defender at LDE despite the frontloaded franchise deal he got so if they ditch B-Rob, they could have a problem unless they're willing to switch Justin back to that side. Plus he's probably their best pass rushing DT, which is sad.

I thought Thornton played much stronger in 06 and was vital in run defense. Now if they quit deactivating Shaun Smith when they need him most and commit to him at RDT vs. the run, Thornton looks less improtant.

B-Simms would be another but if the Bengals don't know if they're coming or going at LB, hard to let loose of at least a serviceable player at a couple spots.

Maybe they restructure Thornton and B-Simms. Give them their 07 salary in bonus and a modest overall increase in 07 pay and save a couple mill that way.

[HoosierCat]

I'm not in any particular hurry to see Thornton go, and I know Junior is still unproven as a full-time DE. But, that said, you have to expect they'll want more PT out of Geathers after the money they gave him, and will probably make changes (like moving Smith around) to make that happen.

DE is getting to be a bit of a logjam, with B-done, Justin, Junior, the Non-Dairy Dessert, and Hype Henderson (not to mention the possibility of playing Pollack there if he can come back and, of course, Carl Plowed's heir, Fear the Fanene). I gotta think after Hype, B-rob is next in the ejection chair.

At DT, you have Fanene again, plus Fat Sam, Peko and Thornton, with Shaun Smith an RFA. And there's a fair possibility they pull the trigger on a DT on day 1. (And even if not they always seem to do so on day 2.)

In short, they're gonna have to make some choices on the d-line, and the money they can free up by cutting Thornton and/or B-rob has to be a consideration.

[James_Brooks21]

I'm not in any particular hurry to see Thornton go, and I know Junior is still unproven as a full-time DE. But, that said, you have to expect they'll want more PT out of Geathers after the money they gave him, and will probably make changes (like moving Smith around) to make that happen.

Justin has to play defensive end, he's not big enough to play defensive tackle to light in the butt.

DE is getting to be a bit of a logjam, with B-done, Justin, Junior, the Non-Dairy Dessert, and Hype Henderson (not to mention the possibility of playing Pollack there if he can come back and, of course, Carl Plowed's heir, Fear the Fanene). I gotta think after Hype, B-rob is next in the ejection chair.

At DT, you have Fanene again, plus Fat Sam, Peko and Thornton, with Shaun Smith an RFA. And there's a fair possibility they pull the trigger on a DT on day 1. (And even if not they always seem to do so on day 2.)

In short, they're gonna have to make some choices on the d-line, and the money they can free up by cutting Thornton and/or B-rob has to be a consideration.

How about cutting both of them.

[Whur CHad At?]

Thornton is overrated cut his ass...and B Rob, what has he done? Nothing, cut his ass now. Wasted money

[Stripes]

Thornton is overrated cut his ass...and B Rob, what has he done? Nothing, cut his ass now. Wasted money

While I'm halfway on the "cut B-rob" bandwagon, I still disagree. We have nobody to take over for Thornton who can provide his pass rush and veteran leadership (Peko plays in Adams' spot). B-rob will be nice to have should Geathers struggle as a starter.

[Kazkal]

Diden't peko play both spots last year? where they wanted more beef then what JT have they puit him in his place? but if they wanted more movement put him in adams? it's how it seemed to me heh

[schweinhart]

I'm not in any particular hurry to see Thornton go, and I know Junior is still unproven as a full-time DE. But, that said, you have to expect they'll want more PT out of Geathers after the money they gave him, and will probably make changes (like moving Smith around) to make that happen.

DE is getting to be a bit of a logjam, with B-done, Justin, Junior, the Non-Dairy Dessert, and Hype Henderson (not to mention the possibility of playing Pollack there if he can come back and, of course, Carl Plowed's heir, Fear the Fanene). I gotta think after Hype, B-rob is next in the ejection chair.

At DT, you have Fanene again, plus Fat Sam, Peko and Thornton, with Shaun Smith an RFA. And there's a fair possibility they pull the trigger on a DT on day 1. (And even if not they always seem to do so on day 2.)

In short, they're gonna have to make some choices on the d-line, and the money they can free up by cutting Thornton and/or B-rob has to be a consideration.

I was all for cutting B-Rob to start last season. But I like how he anchored the end in the run game and still proved to be at the same level as a pass rushing DT as the rest of the DTs. Cutting him now forces the Bengals to rely on another player who hasn't proven squat to do what he's done.

Fanene at DT is a joke. But the Bengals are apparently insistent about the point of kicking in DEs to play pass rush DT. The one improvement on D last year was the run and Thornton held his own like B-Rob did. If the Bengals are willing to tag an essentially run defending DE like Justin, I see no reason why they wouldn't decide to keep both B-Rob and Thornton too. They just don't appear to like Shaun Smith enough to rely on him and Sam is a health risk. Maybe they get what they want out of a rook or cheap free agent, but this is the one part of the Bengals team -- the run D -- where if it ain't broke don't fix it. The downside is the pass rushing would largely remain the same.

[HoosierCat]

f the Bengals are willing to tag an essentially run defending DE like Justin, I see no reason why they wouldn't decide to keep both B-Rob and Thornton too.

Well, the reason is exactly what we're talking about here, cap space. But in any event, I suspect that the team either isn't as tight under the cap as Hobson is trying to make us think (as I mentioned in the other thread) or they already have plans to make more space. My bet is actually both.