Bengals tag Smith...

[HoosierCat]

2 - I'm betting the idea of signing Steinbach is toast, and has been for quite some time.

Looks that way. This was buried at the bottom of the Post's story on Justin getting tagged:

"We've been preparing for free agency for weeks now," said Jack Bechta, Steinbach's agent. "We knew (the Bengals) weren't going to use the franchise tag on Eric. I thought they might make contact right before free agency, but I haven't heard a peep from them since we talked in October."

[HairOnFire]

For what it's worth, Steinbach is a top five guard. Justin is not a top five end.

I would have agreed with you before last season, when Steiney looked like crap. Now, maybe he just had an off year, maybe it was him trying to do too much with all the o-line shuffling, who knows. But even since he slipped up and let Kimo come through and rip up Carson's knee he hasn't looked he same to me.

I think a big problem last year was Brahm's injury and (as you mentioned) the constant shuffling of the players. That kills the chemistry of a line, and it makes great players look so so.

Here's the rub. Steinbach isn't naturally big or strong. He began his college career as an oversized TE and ended it as an undersized OG whose greatest asset was mobility and the ability to pull. And he's one the very best if the conversation is limited to just that. But his problems didn't begin last season. He's always had trouble with bigger defensive lineman. For example, Albert Haynesworth abuses Steinbach everytime they match up, Richard Seymour tweaked Carson Palmer's knee after blasting through Steinbach as if he wasn't there, and even the likes of Kimo Von Kneecapper caused Steinbach major problems long before that fateful playoff game.

As for chemistry, it might be an issue I'd worry about if Whitworth hadn't gotten so much playing time at so many different positions. In addition, Whitworth's few weaknesses are completely negated if Levi Jones is healthy again. So the chemistry should be as good as the health of the O-line allows.

[Whur CHad At?]

I like Whitworth at guard better than Steinbach. The Bengals will not miss a beat with that exchange, but who would fill in for our favorite beer drinking DE? He is solid, and does work hard.

Be careful what you wish for. For all we know Whitworth could really struggle this year. I think the chemistry of the line is going to struggle this year

[HoosierCat]

But I remain puzzled by the Jumpy Jr. deal if the Bengals do intend to extend Justin. On the front end Jumpy got what J-Abe fteched after he got traded off his tag last year -- $12.5 SB, 6 years with a $2 mill base in 1st year. So he basically got franhcise money, which seems awfully hard to justify for a player that's not a starter and wouldn't seem as able to be an every down end on the left side as the right. Suppose Justin can get switched back to the other side.

In the end, it may simply have come down to the team not having a lot of choices. Even if Junior never becomes a starter, if he keeps putting up double-digit sack numbers he was still in for a big payday in FA as a top pass rusher. Heck, we've been talking about a guy like Landon getting $3-4m. I suspect Geathers' deal will look like a bargain in a couple years.

As for Justin, what else do you do. Lose him and we create nothing but a big question mark at DE. The draft's always a crap shoot, and bringing in even a mid-tier FA DE would cost what, $4-5-6m? All the team really "loses" by tagging Justin is the dubious opportunity to sign one or two of their usual bargain-bin FAs.

I don't think a trade scenario is in the offing. The interesting question in my mind, tho, is, are they really interested in a long-term deal -- or are they just taking advantage of the big increase in cap space to hang on to Smith for one year while they try to figure out exactly what they have in the likes of Fanene, Rucker, Henderson, and perhaps Pollack?

[HairOnFire]

I don't think a trade scenario is in the offing. The interesting question in my mind, tho, is, are they really interested in a long-term deal -- or are they just taking advantage of the big increase in cap space to hang on to Smith for one year while they try to figure out exactly what they have in the likes of Fanene, Rucker, Henderson, and perhaps Pollack?

I look at it this way. If the Bengals can sign Justin to a long term deal they'll have two quality starters at DE, and pretty impressive depth at both spots. But without Smith the DE position looks dramatically weaker and it's long term status is far more uncertain. So the argument for retaining Smith is almost a no-brainer if financial considerations are ignored. And that's the way it seems to be playing out.

In regards to building for the future the real question now becomes the DT positions where thoughts of the long term future begin and end with Peko. But give Peko an active push the pocket type of bookend and the D-Line suddenly begins to look like a potentially solid unit that should provide better than average production for years. And the draft might be able to provide that bookend, right?

[Kazkal]

. Tag Steiney, let Justin walk.

It's funny people bitch about how it's overpaying justin but they'll turn around and wanna over pay steinbach.

For what it's worth, Steinbach is a top five guard. Justin is not a top five end. Justin couldn't even record double digit sacks in a CONTRACT season. He put up three sacks in the first game, then recorded 4.5 in the last 15 games. Hell, over the last ten games he had three half-sacks. Oh mercy! Be still my beating heart!

The bottom line is, those numbers would be fine for a defensive tackle, but for a DE? Come on.

Steinbach also got carsons knee killed,he's good but he gets overpowered.

[Stripes]

And the draft might be able to provide that bookend, right?

Shift your gazes to my sig.

Probably dreaming though.

[Kazkal]

If Okoye weighed the 320 his college said he did

[HoosierCat]

And the draft might be able to provide that bookend, right?

Shift your gazes to my sig.

Probably dreaming though.

Probably, but if Hair's climbing aboard the DT bandwagon, even briefly, anything can happen.

More likely to be around is the Tank.

[HairOnFire]

And the draft might be able to provide that bookend, right?

Shift your gazes to my sig.

Oh, but I have. And that's just the point as locking up Justin Smith long-term frees up the draft and allows the Bengals to look harder at other positions that would actually improve the team and move it forward. Lose him and it's more than possible that those assets would have to be used on one of the few defensive positions that was already manned by a solid player.

[Stripes]

And the draft might be able to provide that bookend, right?

Shift your gazes to my sig.

Oh, but I have. And that's just the point as locking up Justin Smith long-term frees up the draft and allows the Bengals to look harder at other positions that would actually improve the team and move it forward. Lose him and it's more than possible that those assets would have to be used on one of the few defensive positions that was already manned by a solid player.

Yup. I suspect we'll still see a BPA type strategy taken though... Justin's signing just decreases the DE possibility a small amount IMO (unless they can sign him long term before the draft).

[HairOnFire]

Probably dreaming though.

Probably, but if Hair's climbing aboard the DT bandwagon, even briefly, anything can happen.

More likely to be around is the Tank.

I've still got my biggest draft flag planted firmly in Camp CB, but tagging Justin Smith dictated that I remove the slightly smaller battle flag from Camp DE....which should please those of you who hated the idea of seeing Adam Carriker in stripes.

Where I end up planting my smaller battle flag hasn't been determined yet, but that's the whole point of freeing up your draft options. For example, linebackers look prettier this morning and Reggie Nelson looks like he's done something new with his hair.

[derekshank]

And the draft might be able to provide that bookend, right?

Shift your gazes to my sig.

Oh, but I have. And that's just the point as locking up Justin Smith long-term frees up the draft and allows the Bengals to look harder at other positions that would actually improve the team and move it forward. Lose him and it's more than possible that those assets would have to be used on one of the few defensive positions that was already manned by a solid player.

This is close to word for word the argument I made and got blasted for when the tag was first mentioned in relation to Smith.

I'm pretty happy with the news. I've always liked Justin, and this frees us up to look at other positions in FA and the draft. DE is an oft-overpayed position ever since the sack stat made headlines. I'm very happy with DE's we have. We have much bigger needs at CB, LB and DT that we should be focusing on now. Tagging Smith gives us the opportunity to address those needs without any of the distractions of seeking a high-priced DE.

[HoosierCat]

Where I end up planting my smaller battle flag hasn't been determined yet,

TE

C'mon. You know you want to...

[HairOnFire]

And the draft might be able to provide that bookend, right?

Shift your gazes to my sig.

Oh, but I have. And that's just the point as locking up Justin Smith long-term frees up the draft and allows the Bengals to look harder at other positions that would actually improve the team and move it forward. Lose him and it's more than possible that those assets would have to be used on one of the few defensive positions that was already manned by a solid player.

This is close to word for word the argument I made and got blasted for when the tag was first mentioned in relation to Smith.

I'm pretty happy with the news. I've always liked Justin, and this frees us up to look at other positions in FA and the draft. DE is an oft-overpayed position ever since the sack stat made headlines. I'm very happy with DE's we have. We have much bigger needs at CB, LB and DT that we should be focusing on now. Tagging Smith gives us the opportunity to address those needs without any of the distractions of seeking a high-priced DE.

I can speak only for myself, but I'm pretty happy with the decision to tag Smith this morning. That said, if they can't get a long-term deal hammered out it's a decision that will quickly start to grind on me precisely because the Bengals will be facing the same problems next year...and almost certainly with fewer options.

[membengal]

Derek, you had and have supporters on this, as does HoF. I have long wondered why Bengals fans slag on Smith like they do, and have come to the agree-to-disagree point. I am perfectly content with the tag, so long as they can still pursue Samuel, for instance.

As for the draft, I think their second smaller flag should be at LB. I could even be talked into receiver.

[Kazkal]

Oh, but I have. And that's just the point as locking up Justin Smith long-term frees up the draft and allows the Bengals to look harder at other positions that would actually improve the team and move it forward. Lose him and it's more than possible

Thats what i tryed exsplaining on bengals.com forum that ya were overpaying him but really we wearn't gonna find much of a improvement so we might as well save a draft pick to find a player who upgrades us even more.

[Stripes]

I saw someone else post this on another board, and found it interesting... Some of you may have seen the yearly positional rankings they put together on CBS Sportsline. Here are the rankings for all defensive lineman in the 2006 season:

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/playerrankin...egularseason/DL

Granted, some good players are pretty far down the list, so it is a bit suspect.

Justin is in a pretty lofty position though.

[Kazkal]

Well good thing we tagged justin we woulden't even had a shot at Briggs or Samuel.

[HoosierCat]

Good find.

[HoosierCat]

Well good thing we tagged justin we woulden't even had a shot at Briggs or Samuel.

I saw the Bears tagged Briggs, did the Pats tag Samuel?

Edit -- yup, NFL network says they did. Well, at least I suppose these two moves will put to rest all the "hey, the timing of Smith's tagging is wierd, they must have some trade motive or something" speculation...

[HairOnFire]

Here's the latest on Justin. The most interesting thing about the following remarks from Marvin is his "If it were up to me"...stance being openly offered for the press to chew on. Marvin and the front office usually put up a unified front, but Lewis seems slightly out of step this time.

Lewis said he’d like to see Smith reach a long-term deal so that the Bengals can lower that $8.6 million salary cap count and give them more room to spend money.

Earlier Friday, agent Jim Steiner said Smith has no problem with the franchise tag but wouldn’t say if he’d sign it in time to participate in mini camps and training camps. Lewis said he expected Smith to be there.

While praising how hard Smith works, Lewis also said, “We’ve tried to negotiate (long-term deal) for a while and it’s not happening…I think if it were me I’d figure a way. I think he’d probably get a little bit more and extend the years a little bit. I hope we can work something out because it would enable us to go do some other things.”

[HoosierCat]

Here's the latest on Justin. The most interesting thing about the following remarks from Marvin is his "If it were up to me"...stance being openly offered for the press to chew on. Marvin and the front office usually put up a unified front, but Lewis seems slightly out of step this time.

Yeah, saw that, but I really couldn't tell which side Marvin was directing his comments at.

“We’ve tried to negotiate (long-term deal) for a while and it’s not happening…I think if it were me I’d figure a way. I think he’d probably get a little bit more and extend the years a little bit. I hope we can work something out because it would enable us to go do some other things.”

On first read, yeah, it sounds like a shot at the FO. And the suggestion that the FO prefers a shorter, less expensive deal versus a longer, pricier one (maybe with some backloading?) fits with the typical FO MO. But then again, it's usually guaranteed coin and escalator/incentive clauses that get the FO's hackles up. And when it comes to contract lengths, it's usually the Bengals pushing for longer terms and the players looking for shorter lengths.

So maybe it's Justin's side; perhaps it's him who doesn't want to take a "bit more and extend the years." Remember, he did make it pretty clear he wasn't expecting to be back, even taking the nameplate off his locker and all that.

My own suspicions are that it's the FO and not Justin, but I really can't tell from what little has seeped out so far. Though the fact anything is seeping at all is probably not a good sign. If it is Justin side's and not the FO, then the Bengals have fired the first shot in the "negotiating through the media" circus.

[HoosierCat]

Interesting timing on today's bengals.com and Enquirer stories featuring Mike "gloom & doom" Brown and his predictions of imminent financial disaster for the league. A day after the head coach takes what could be construed as a very oblique shot at the FO to give some ground and get a deal done with Justin so the bengals can do some FA shopping...the FO rolls out its annual cry of poverty.

[Stripes]

I don't think the news regarding Mikey's comments on the financial future of the league are related to the Justin Smith situation... Just a topic of discussion while owners are gathered at the Combine.