PFT - Bengals still cheap

[ShulaSteakhouse]

BENGALS NEED TO BEEF UP SCOUTING STAFF

In response to the item we posted on Sunday night addressing the tough talk from Bengals president Mike Brown regarding his displeasure with a roster including nine players who have been arrested since December 2005, a former NFL front-office employee has reminded us of one of the potential causes for the problem with which the team is now struggling.

The Bengals don't employ enough scouts.

According to the team's official web site, the Bengals have only one scout and three "scouting consultants."

"Most teams have almost 10 college scouts and a scouting assistant or 2," said the source. "It's amazing that they have gone this far today and do things backwards. They have no one else to blame but their own front office."

So how do they get ready for the draft? The talk is that the assistant coaches get pressed into service after the season ends. But that's like showing up 90 minutes late for a marathon, since every other team has been spending the entire football season dispatching its scouts to points all over the country, where they attend college practices and games.

Focusing only on the AFC North, the Bengals are well behind their key rivals. The Steelers have at least seven college scouts, and one person who splits time between assessing college and pro prospects. The Ravens have eight college scouts. The Browns have nine college scouts. (Um, Cleveland, it's not working.)

Why don't the Bengals have a bigger scouting staff? Because they're cheap.

And this brings us back to the whole revenue issue. Sure, the Bengals are near the bottom of the NFL in gross revenue. But they continue to be one of the most profitable teams, because they spend as little of their money as possible.

So while we've been blaming Marvin Lewis for the mess in the Queen City, it very well could be that much of the blame falls to Brown.

With that said, the Bengals are clearly doing enough to identify the talented players. The flaw apparently lies in the nuances and details, which prompted many of the guys whom they have selected over the past couple of years to slide until the Bengals realized that they were in position to snag what they thought was a steal.

[HoosierCat]

Age-old issue. I really don't think that the lack of a scouting staff is responsible for the Bengals' "bad character" decisions. I mean, c'mon, the fact guys like Odell, Henry, Rucker, etc., had checkered pasts was hardly a secret, right?

[jjakq27]

Same group of guys that selected Madieu, Palmer, Jeremi, Steinbach, Geathers, Tab Perry, Whitworth and Peko. Another case of PFT and their love/obsession for the Bengals.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Well yeah their point about the character issue as it relates to the scouting staff probably isn't very relevant.

But it is just a reminder that the Bengals' are not over the hump yet, because they refuse to do things like other modern, successful teams do.

The drafting of same players from the same schools and side of the ball would be one example of this (asst coaches doing the scouting) - for instance Alexander drafting Guychick and Kieft (which I thought was ridiculous).

The bottom-line is they don't have enough scouts to find those diamonds in the rough and get a good read on mid-round prospects that others do consistently.

Instead they opt for well-known troubled kids with a high upside that slide, that usually play for big programs and are on TV a lot (Rucker, Nicholson, Henry, Thurman).

My problem is that the Mike Brown lover contingent that exists on this board, for whatever reason, refuses to think that the Bengals' not having the same advantages other teams do every year, are somehow "ok" here.

What is it about 16 consecutive seasons with only one winning season that doesn't hit home with some of you guys? Seriously what is it about those FACTS that does not ring a bell?

So when people lambast the Bengals' for being cheap and cutting corners - and back it up with their record - you still have excuses for it?

Soooo backwards a$$ Cincinnati.

Marvin Lewis alone cannot do everything. It doesn't work that way! Trust him like God all you want!

When do fans in this town start demanding accountability instead of waiting for "next year?" The infamous year that never comes.

Unless you are okay with an 11-5 season and a first round playoff loss every 15 years.

I find that unacceptable.

[HoosierCat]

I agree the Bengals do need a bigger scouting staff. Given that they rely on building through the draft (versus free agency), it would seem a smart move to have a least a few more people.

[Walrus]

I agree the Bengals do need a bigger scouting staff. Given that they rely on building through the draft (versus free agency), it would seem a smart move to have a least a few more people.

And it would make more economic sense to Mikey if it meant cutting down the number of duds they pick up. But would it really work that way? -- obviously the Cleveland Browns make the case that more scouts don't necessarily equal better drafts. A couple of head cases and some freak injuries notwithstanding, it seems like the Bengals draft better than most teams.

However, free agency is one area where (and I think most will agree) the Bengals could really stand to improve who they pick up. Is there anyone on our team aside from Shayne Graham who we picked up from free agency that really turned out well? James and O'Neal, maybe B+/A-? DJax is good (but dammit make that tackle on Roethlesburger!!!!). In my opinion, the Bengals could really benefit from the services of a good NFL scout.

[HoosierCat]

And it would make more economic sense to Mikey if it meant cutting down the number of duds they pick up. But would it really work that way? -- obviously the Cleveland Browns make the case that more scouts don't necessarily equal better drafts. A couple of head cases and some freak injuries notwithstanding, it seems like the Bengals draft better than most teams.

The Bengals have done better of late -- no more Brewers, thank gawd. And the credit for that, I think, has to go to Lewis and his staff. The example of the Clowns is instructive: you can have enough scouts, but if the guy pulling the trigger is a numbskull it won't matter. And I dont think anyone did more damage to the Browns on draft day than Butch Davis.

In my opinion, the Bengals could really benefit from the services of a good NFL scout.

Couldn't hurt. Didn't they used to have some guy who scouted next week's opponent for them? Or was that Seamon?

[HairOnFire]

Same group of guys that selected Madieu, Palmer, Jeremi, Steinbach, Geathers, Tab Perry, Whitworth and Peko.

I think it's fair to say that every NFL team knew about those players...regardless of the size of a teams scouting staff...since several scouting services sell their opinions and findings to teams with smaller scouting staffs. The Bengals have openly admitted that they are one of those teams....explaining further that it makes little sense for them to individually shoulder the expense of gathering information when it is already available for purchase. In addition, the NFL investigates the character of all draft prospects and provides their findings to all teams for free. Remember, the Bengals said they knew all about Rucker's past...so his selection has to be viewed as something that didn't trouble the Bengals, not as a surprise that resulted from having too few scouts.

Frankly, if you want to grade a teams scouting prowess I think you have to look first at how well they draft in the lowest rounds, if the team has any success at all from it's undrafted free agents, and how often they find players from alternative talent pools who can contribute. In the latter example I'm talking about the CFL, NFLE, and the various Arena leagues.

So, when looking at those areas...does anyone want to argue that the Bengals haven't done as well or better than most NFL teams?

[Stripes]

The Bengals have assembled one of the most talented teams in the league. The upside of this roster is through the roof. A few problem children don't nullify the great job that scouting team has done the last few years.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Age-old issue. I really don't think that the lack of a scouting staff is responsible for the Bengals' "bad character" decisions. I mean, c'mon, the fact guys like Odell, Henry, Rucker, etc., had checkered pasts was hardly a secret, right?

I'm not saying it is or isn't, but there's two ways to get the best possible talent for a given draft pick. One is to scout the hell out of the players and find a gem that perhaps other teams don't see. Another is to roll the dice. One could say that, in order to remain competitive without the scouting resources other teams have, the Bengals have to roll the dice. Or feel like they need to.

That being said, the Bengals' current success is clearly built by good picks , primarily the 2001 draft (4 current starters), as well as 2003 (3 current starters). Aside from that, we have 2 starters and 3 primary backups from 2004, 1 starter (Guichick), 1 primary backup who could start elsewhere (Henry) and a special teams stud from 2005, and 3 primary backups from 2006 (at least one of which will start next year).

So how can they seem to draft well (at least sometimes) despite a lack of scouts? I dunno. I think it's folly to assume that they few people they have are that much better than the rest of the league. Perhaps nobody can pick dramatically better than conventional wisdom (ie, Kiper), and scouts don't matter at all? Perhaps they got lucky a few times (plus the Palmer pick which was a no-brainer)? I know they subscribe to the draft services, but there you're only getting info that other teams are getting.

Regardless, it'll be interesting to see what happens come April.

Hair, that is a fair point regarding a guy like Jeanty, he doesn't come to mind when grading a draft but he seems like 3rd round material anyway.

[HairOnFire]

Hair, that is a fair point regarding a guy like Jeanty, he doesn't come to mind when grading a draft but he seems like 3rd round material anyway.

It doesn't stop there. K2 was found in the Arena League. Kilmer, Brazell, and Tab Perry are all late round draft picks who provided immediate help as role players, but could become much more. And the same is true of undrafted players curently on the practice squad like Ben Wilkerson and Eric Henderson. Taking it a step further, Housh is one of the best wideouts in the NFL despite being drafted in the 7th round, and fellow 2nd day pick Rudi Johnson gives you a consistent 1,400 rushing attack. On and on it goes. And yeah, their supposedly "too small" scouting staff found Jeanty when other teams couldn't be bothered enough to give him a second glance.

[HoosierCat]

So how can they seem to draft well (at least sometimes) despite a lack of scouts?

Because there's more to drafting than just scouting. There's also the front office and the coaching staff to consider. Like I said, the Browns had a lot of scouts, but their front office and coaching were a mess. The Bengals, for a long time, had no scouts, no coaching and no front office worth mentioning, and we all know how that worked out, draft-wise.

I credit the improvement in the Bengals' drafts over the last few year to Lewis & Co. And I wonder how much better they'd have been if he'd had more support.

PS, regarding Jeanty, IIRC several teams worked him out and at least one other one -- Miami, I think -- made an offer the bengals had to top. So he was hardly a secret.

[Kazkal]

Agreed about needing more scouts to find the later gems...we have found few but haven't been quite successful like the chargers.

[HairOnFire]

PS, regarding Jeanty, IIRC several teams worked him out and at least one other one -- Miami, I think -- made an offer the bengals had to top. So he was hardly a secret.

That's just the point, nobody is a secret anymore. That's why teams don't have to have an army of their own scouts following in the footsteps of other scouts as everyone falls all over themselves chasing the same information about the same players. But in the Jeanty example the Bengals were the team who looked closer than others and if you want to judge them fairly you have to give them credit for closing the deal when others couldn't. So ask yourself if the Bengals scouting staff was too small that day or if the front office was too cheap?

And Hoosier, the same things are true of the player pictured in your avatar. Another late round guy known to all who was passed over by every team, time and time again, until the Bengals pulled the trigger.

Moving on to examples of higher drafted players, it was the Bengals who invited Chad Johnson to a private workout that produced greatly improved times in the 40....eliminating the nagging concerns about speed that caused him to fall on many draft boards. Concerns about his character caused him to fall on a few others. Was the Bengals scouting staff too small that day?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

PS, regarding Jeanty, IIRC several teams worked him out and at least one other one -- Miami, I think -- made an offer the bengals had to top. So he was hardly a secret.

That's just the point, nobody is a secret anymore. That's why teams don't have to have an army of their own scouts following in the footsteps of other scouts as everyone falls all over themselves chasing the same information about the same players. But in the Jeanty example the Bengals were the team who looked closer than others and if you want to judge them fairly you have to give them credit for closing the deal when others couldn't. So ask yourself if the Bengals scouting staff was too small that day or if the front office was too cheap?

And Hoosier, the same things are true of the player pictured in your avatar. Another late round guy known to all who was passed over by every team, time and time again, until the Bengals pulled the trigger.

Moving on to examples of higher drafted players, it was the Bengals who invited Chad Johnson to a private workout that produced greatly improved times in the 40....eliminating the nagging concerns about speed that caused him to fall on many draft boards. Concerns about his character caused him to fall on a few others. Was the Bengals scouting staff too small that day?

I'd say it's hit and miss. I don't think it's coincidence that the Bengals have had more than their fair share of drafts where they get more than one guy from a given school - like that draft. They probably did have scout or someone who spent some time at Oregon State that year. And it panned out. To me that approach can probably give a team an advantage. Just think if they had more eyes on more college teams, we might get those later round steals more often.

I believe the NFL is about a few things that make a team successful: 1) Get good value per pick in the draft, 2) Pick a scheme and get players that fit it well, 3) Don't pay for overpriced FAs (including your own), and 4) Get a coach who knows how to game plan. We've done a decent job of #3, and have at times done a good job of #1. #4 is questionable, and they don't pay attention to #2 at all.

One thing that none of us probably know is, how much does scouting really cost? Presumably scouting gets you better players for cheaper. Seems to me scouts probably don't make that much. Lets say that hiring 10 extra scouts and paying for them to work (travel, etc) costs $2M ($200K/yr in total cost seems on the high side too). How much in player salaries could they save in the long run? Not only that, you're effectively paying non-cap money to save money under the cap. There's obviously going to be a point of diminishing returns there, but I can't imagine it's at the 3 scouts they currently have.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I can agree with that DC. My beef is that I would want to have as many professional opinions as possible on a player to help make a better decision.

And I would not want to rely on position and assistant coaches who don't have the time to get to know some of these guys better and their situations.

Again I go back to 16 years of losing to prove that whatever stupid model the Brown family is using, hasn't worked. Marvin was a nice change, by going outside of the "family." Hiring some part-time consultants was ok, now at least take the next step and give your team/players/coaches the same resources everyone else does - an indoor practice facility and some extra full-time scouts, and a GM.

Mike Brown makes plety of money to afford this with relative ease, and the long term residuals could pay off big.

Just tired of the cheapness. The Steelers have all these things as well, and are minimalistic.

FA's and QB's like bubbles too! Build a bubble damnit!