The Great TE Debate Thread

[HoosierCat]

TE wise, this probably ain't the draft to look for help but Jonny Harline might be tempting late if he's still there. Short of Graham in free agency, I wouldn't mind seeing them go after David Martin or Eric Johnson.

Another name to throw in the FA hat would be Seattle's Jerramy Stevens...

[walzav29]

With an 8th ranked offense and a 30th ranked defense, I don't want to see anything put 100% commitment to the defense. Marv said they don't have an identity. Well he better get them one.

[Kazkal]

If we some how tagged and traded justin or eric and traded them for a early 3rd,I woulden't mind picking up Manuel Ramirez in the 3rd.

He gets overpowered on passing plays once in awile and He isnt a great run blocker....

I think he would have been better suited as a OT .....

Im not a big advocate of guards over 6'4 at best... Its about leverage and if a tall guard doesnt stay low he lets opponents get under his pad level ....

Whitworth may just have the strength to overcome that objective but I reallly think his forte would be as a RT.....

will be intresting to see how whitworth does at guard...but I think almost everyone can agree him playing guard is just shorterm till willie retires who he will then replace...I'd perfer putting off til 2008 when we draft a 1st rnd linemen.

[Kirkendall]

TE wise, this probably ain't the draft to look for help but Jonny Harline might be tempting late if he's still there. Short of Graham in free agency, I wouldn't mind seeing them go after David Martin or Eric Johnson.

Another name to throw in the FA hat would be Seattle's Jerramy Stevens...

[jditty47]

Stevens would not be an upgrade, his drops are not what we need besides Kelly's blocking. If we bring a recieving TE in, he has to be damn good at it, only FA i see is Graham.

[HoosierCat]

Stevens would not be an upgrade, his drops are not what we need besides Kelly's blocking.

Don't agree. Stevens would be an upgrade.

[jditty47]

then we'll have to disagree. i see atleast 15 better recievers in the league at TE than stevens, and his blocking skills arent his strong suit. stevens is an average TE at best. I would rather continue to not have a TE besides kelly than one that chokes under pressure like stevens.

[Kirkendall]

As I watch Brady and Manning check-down constantly during these playoff games, I am reminded how important a big, athletic TE is to an offense. Hell the Pats use Watson and Graham like WR's.

Neither team has Chris Henry as a third receiver.

Honestly, I think Reggie Kelly is PERFECT for this system. He's a good blocker and a decent fourth option -- if he's not in blocking because Palmer has 2.4 seconds to get rid of the ball. And let's be honest, if we get a Tight End, there's three guys Palmer will check off of to get to him (two 1,000 yard guys and the league's best #3 receiver some call little Moss). And no, a TE would really make no difference on third down with T.J. Houshmandzadeh 8th in the league in third down conversions.

J.STEVENS

Tight ends with more passes drops than Stevens.

Bubba Franks

Alge Crumpler

Chris Cooley

Randy McMichael

George Wrighster

However, personally, I don't like the prick. And I think Reggie Kelly could put out the same stats as Stevens. Why doesn't he then? Well, Chris Henry is probably one reason.

And yes, the dependability (effort on the field, sitting in the slammer off the field) of Henry is a valid argument.

Just causing some s**t here...

[ShulaSteakhouse]

It's about match-ups and options Kirk - TJ is still split wide on 3rd downs and can still make those catches - and if a TE does instead, and it means the offense as a whole is less predictable and more varied and successful and can stay on the field - I'm all for it.

And the last thing I want is to see them drafting o-lineman in the mid rounds, Alexander has proven he can't develop players to their potential time and time again (sorry both Steiny and Goff were failures of his also, and Eric G isn't looking much better along with Bobbie Williams).

Quit fighting it folks - football is football. The Bengals' could stand to protect Carson better, run the ball better, and add a threat at TE.

Look at every playoff team and they utilize TE's: be it Clark, Graham, Watson, Gates, Stevens, Heap, etc..., etc...,

Some of you guys fall in love with Bengal players much too easily and overrate some of them to death.

Fact is this team has been 8-8 3 out of the last 4 years - so if all of these players sans only one or two are so good - why aren't they in the SuperBowl every year?

It's because they are not as talented as you think they are across the board.

[Stripes]

Some of you guys fall in love with Bengal players much too easily and overrate some of them to death.

Fact is this team has been 8-8 3 out of the last 4 years - so if all of these players sans only one or two are so good - why aren't they in the SuperBowl every year?

It's because they are not as talented as you think they are across the board.

That's just the thing. If you think the overall level of talent present on this team is 8-8 caliber, to the same degree as other 8-8's like the freaking Titans, then you'll certainly be in disagreement with everyone. More factors than just talent play into a team's final win/loss record.

You're right that some positions could stand an upgrade, but you want to revamp the entire team and fire more than half the coaching staff. As much as we might overrate many Bengals players, you underrate them equally.

[HairOnFire]

What's an upgrade? If you're looking for a player who can block like an extra offensive lineman while at the same time being capable of catching most dump off throws from the QB then you'll have to look long and hard for a better TE than Reggie Kelly. But if you want a TE than can actually do more than catch a ball thrown to the flat then Jerramy Stevens is your guy. He can actually stretch the field deep. Just make sure you understand that he's a hit or miss blocker who brings a reputation for dropping too many catchable balls. Oh, and he comes with the unwanted baggage of being Joey Porter's bitch...so twice a year his confidence may need massaging.

Frankly, I want an upgrade at TE nearly as much as the rest of you....as long as we can agree that it's not a position worthy of high draft attention. But a 2nd tier FA sounds just fine to me and yeah...that includes Stevens.

That said, you guys do realize that Stevens comes with a reputaion for thuggity behavior and a fondness for drink?

[HoosierCat]

then we'll have to disagree. i see atleast 15 better recievers in the league at TE than stevens, and his blocking skills arent his strong suit.

Well, since none of those 15 better receivers play in Cincy, that's an upgrade, right? As for blocking, it would hardly be the first time that the Bengals practiced a division of labor at TE. I'm not that put out by drops; if I were I would be calling for Chad's head this offseason.

For the record, I wouldn't complain about Graham, either. And for the record II, I doubt whether Graham or Stevens make it to FA. And for the record III, if either do, IMHO they will be chased by multiple teams, making it extremely unlikely they land here. The most likely scenario is that Kelly and/or Stewart will be back, Tab will play the recieving TE role, and the team will continue to fiddle about with PS guys like Day and Ghent in hopes of pulling a rabbit out of their proverbial hat.

[AMC]

then we'll have to disagree. i see atleast 15 better recievers in the league at TE than stevens, and his blocking skills arent his strong suit.

Well, since none of those 15 better receivers play in Cincy, that's an upgrade, right? As for blocking, it would hardly be the first time that the Bengals practiced a division of labor at TE. I'm not that put out by drops; if I were I would be calling for Chad's head this offseason.

For the record, I wouldn't complain about Graham, either. And for the record II, I doubt whether Graham or Stevens make it to FA. And for the record III, if either do, IMHO they will be chased by multiple teams, making it extremely unlikely they land here. The most likely scenario is that Kelly and/or Stewart will be back, Tab will play the recieving TE role, and the team will continue to fiddle about with PS guys like Day and Ghent in hopes of pulling a rabbit out of their proverbial hat.

I think Stevens may be a tad soft for the AFC North.....But seeing him play against Porter twice a year would be a good story after they went back and forth before the SB....

As for your outlook on Day, Ghent, and Perry....I agree....

[schweinhart]

I doubt the Bengals show any interest in a vertical TE like Stevens. They could've had Marcedes Lewis last year if that was the direction they wanted to go.

Seems more likely they'll want a TE who can line block, lead block from the backfield and blitz block from a split backfield. If he has better receiver skills than Kelly or Stewart (not hard to do) then there's a bonus. But I'd say they go 2nd tier TE if they pursue one at all in free agency.

However, Graham would be a perfect addition at high price. Skip on either Justin or Steiny and they have plenty of bucks to go after him. Hard to imagine the Pats go after him at all given the TE depth they got.

[Kirkendall]

It's about match-ups and options Kirk

Exactly. Henry on a linebacker and he'll burn them deep. Henry on a safety or nickleback will out jump any puny human on him. No one can defend him. A tight end would be real nice, no doubt. But even if we got the bestest (my word) catching tight end in NFL history, I don't think he'd be used the way you think he should be.

Palmer was dropped too much this year -- sacks and bone jarring hits after he threw the ball. Until the line gets more stable on a consistent basis, the tight end should block first, catch second. Perhaps with time we'll get a good one and use him as a threat. But I just don't see it happening right now.

..and let's not forget the glory that is Chris Perry! That's another option you could use as a tight end like 3rd down guy.

On a separate totally unrelated note, you know it's a bad season overall when the practice squad tight end has to go on IR too!

[Kazkal]

so twice a year his confidence may need massaging.

Porter is done in stiller town after this season if not this season.

[BengalPimp]

Stevens would not be an upgrade, his drops are not what we need besides Kelly's blocking.

Don't agree. Stevens would be an upgrade.

You're nuts. Stevens drops more passes and has "Happier Feet" than Chris Henry. Between the 2 of them, Carson Palmer would go Bald (from pulling all of his hair out)

[redsbengalsbucks]

People here hated Schobel because he was not very consistent with his blocking and dropped some passes, but he was able to stretch the feild with his above average speed for a TE. Now we have an arguement to bring in a guy that is similar to Schobel and has documented problems with drinking and his mouth, not real smart.

[GapControl]

I don`t understand the need for a TE when our defense is the 3rd worst in the NFL.

Someone, anyone, please give me an answer for that one.

[HoosierCat]

People here hated Schobel

Not me. And our subsequent lack of a pass threat at TE was glaringly obvious.

As for the idea that we need blocking TEs to protect Palmer, well, we had two last season and how many times did Palmer get planted? Yeah, I thought so. Maybe the way to keep him from getting sacked is to give him an option for the quick dump when the blitz is on?

I don`t understand the need for a TE when our defense is the 3rd worst in the NFL.

Someone, anyone, please give me an answer for that one.

OK, I'll say it real slow: you can improve both the defense and the offense at the same time. There's no rule that say you can only fix one and thus have to ignore the other.

[GapControl]

People here hated Schobel

Not me. And our subsequent lack of a pass threat at TE was glaringly obvious.

As for the idea that we need blocking TEs to protect Palmer, well, we had two last season and how many times did Palmer get planted? Yeah, I thought so. Maybe the way to keep him from getting sacked is to give him an option for the quick dump when the blitz is on?

I don`t understand the need for a TE when our defense is the 3rd worst in the NFL.

Someone, anyone, please give me an answer for that one.

OK, I'll say it real slow: you can improve both the defense and the offense at the same time. There's no rule that say you can only fix one and thus have to ignore the other.

You are suggesting that the pass-catching TE is going to keep the offense on the field longer therefore affording the defense less time on the field.

Ok.... I can give you that. It is basic football 101. It is my very strong belief the 2006 defense did not suffer because of the offense being on the field for a short period. In 2 games that I can think back to, the offense did fail to create an adequate time of possession advantage. Those games were against Tampa Bay and New England. If that is the case, the other 14 games, 6 of them losses, plant the blame more so on what the defense did during their own time of possession. Year after year, the defense has given up one huge 3rd down conversion, game-changing long run, unabated time-consuming drive, and/or incredibly deep pass play. No TE, no matter how ball-hawking, can change that.

It is time we all look at the cold facts, admit that we have been slowly becoming more and more "addicted" to weak-ass defense, and start demanding this team do something on the defensive side of the ball. We are lying to ourselves. Only we, the fans, can pull ourselves out of this sick addiction to piss-poor defensive play. We must address the defensive players and scheme!

[Stripes]

While keeping the offense on the field longer does indeed mean the defense spends less time on the field, that's not the point. The defense is certainly the weakness of this team, but that doesn't mean it must be our only priority. A better tight end would be a welcome improvement to the offense just like a better defensive tackle would be a welcome improvement to the defense. One might be a more pressing need than the other, but BOTH can be addressed in one offseason regardless (and I assume that's what Hoosier was getting at).

[Kirkendall]

People here hated Schobel because he was not very consistent with his blocking and dropped some passes, but he was able to stretch the feild with his above average speed for a TE. Now we have an arguement to bring in a guy that is similar to Schobel and has documented problems with drinking and his mouth, not real smart.

Well, people were frustrated with Schobel because he couldn't stay on the field because of injury.

As for the idea that we need blocking TEs to protect Palmer, well, we had two last season and how many times did Palmer get planted?

As long as the line is forced to move guys around to cover for injuries, the tight end will have to play a blocking role. But it's not even just the straight sacks. There were times he was ripped hard just after releasing the pass.

[HoosierCat]

One might be a more pressing need than the other, but BOTH can be addressed in one offseason regardless (and I assume that's what Hoosier was getting at).

Yep.

And as to what might be called "the best defense is a good offense" theory, count me among the proponents. That isn't because I don't want to see the Bengals build a better defense, I do, but let's face it: they aren't even close right now. The LB corps is a train wreck, the guy who is arguably their best defensive lineman appears to be leaving, and both starting corners from the interception-happy '05 season appear to have turned to mud. If I had to name an '06 defensive MVP I'd have a hard time picking between Geathers and K2...and frankly I think I'd have to tap Kevin.

There is a hell of a lot of work to do on this D. IMHO we need better talent just about everywhere before we can even start talking about schemes. Im all for spending the majority of our resources (money, draft picks) on the defensive side of the ball over the next several months.

BUT -- and you knew there was a "but" coming, right? -- the offensive side of the ball is solid. Not perfect. It has a few weaknesses, among them the lack of anything resembling a threat at TE, and the lack of difference-making, 3rd down back. C. Perry will be back and maybe through heaven's grace he'll stay healthy. Weirder things have happened. But a threat at TE -- Stevens, Graham, whoever you like -- would IMHO be a big help to an offense struggling to regain its 2005 form. Put that in there and you have -- on paper -- probably the most complete offense in the league next to San Diego's.

So...why not? If we are going to make it back to the playoffs next season, it will be on the strength of the O, not the D. Let's finish cherrying out the O, which wont take a lot, then put the rest on D.

[HairOnFire]

Let's finish cherrying out the O, which wont take a lot, then put the rest on D.

Well, that's sorta like buying bigger breast implants for your already hot mistress when your wife is dying of some horrible disease and can't afford the operation that could save her life.

Then again, it's not like that at all.

Thanks for your time.