Someone Page Kirk, Here Comes the 3-4 Talk Again

[HoosierCat]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...here's Geoff:

But the Geathers signing does nothing to end the 4-3 or 3-4 debate because that’s the reason the Bengals signed him. He can do pretty much anything they ask.

...

With the coaching staff taking some time off before preparing for Senior Bowl practices that begin the week of Jan. 22, head coach Marvin Lewis is believed to be taking “a walk in the woods,” as he tries to find the formula for reviving his defense for 2007.

No one is expecting any major coaching changes on that side of the ball, but Lewis doesn’t exactly let everybody in on what he’s doing, either, although the assumption is he would have done something by now.

So the 4-3 and 3-4 debate may rage until the April draft again because Lewis doesn’t like to tip his hand on anything. And maybe it’s like last year, when what they didn’t get in the draft (outside backer Manny Lawson) pretty much dictated what they would play.

One clue could be the status of right end Justin Smith. Although no one really thinks he’s going to return before he hits the free agent market in March, the Bengals seem interested in trying to make a run at him. If they do happen to re-sign Smith that would seem to secure a 4-3 because even Smith said back in May he’s not a 3-4 player.

If Smith left, what could a possible 3-4 look like? The Bengals could put Geathers on the right outside, Rashad Jeanty on the left outside, and Ahmad Brooks and Brian Simmons at inside backers. Bryan Robinson, John Thornton and Jonathan Fanene could work at ends, and Domata Peko could probably play both nose tackle and end. Shaun Smith is a prototypical 3-4 nose man and so is Sam Adams, although he might not be wild about it after being a 4-3 guy for 13 seasons.

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=5842

Personally, I'm less concerned about 3-4 vs. 4-3 and more concerned about the sucking defense vs. the non-sucking defense. I'd like to see a little more of the latter. And I'm not sure that rearranging the deck chairs on the S.S. Bengalstanic yet again will do much good. I still think we need more talent.

Also interesting: no mention of Pollack, not even an "if he comes back" scenario...

[MacD BengalFan]

I am with you on this. What difference does it make if you can't tackle anyone. Find the right talent and then worry about the scheme.

[CJBestInAFC]

I think putting Simmons in the middle with Brooks is a mistake. Simmons should be cut because he can't tackle and has lost a step. I think the Bengals should look at dumping Simmons and drafting a lb in the first round. Preferably Patrick Willis to play mlb with Brooks. Use Geathers and Jeanty as the outside backers, and the Bengals would have the ability to blitz more effectively.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I think putting Simmons in the middle with Brooks is a mistake. Simmons should be cut because he can't tackle and has lost a step. I think the Bengals should look at dumping Simmons and drafting a lb in the first round. Preferably Patrick Willis to play mlb with Brooks. Use Geathers and Jeanty as the outside backers, and the Bengals would have the ability to blitz more effectively.

Problem: too many needs on defense. Who's worse at this point, Tory or Simmons? Are they keeping Deltha or is he in Marvin's doghouse again? Can we get rid of Tory and give the nickel job back to Kiewan "Underperformer" Ratliff? What about the DTs, each of which is old and bad (with the exception of Smith and Peko who are young and mediocre)?

Too many holes in the dyke need plugging.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

God I hope they let Justin Smith go.

And anything other than the crap defensive scheme that's been employed here the last 4 years would be fine with me...anything.

Maybe Eric Guy-chick can take Smith's place, since he is the boy wonder.

[CBin2k7]

Geathers/Brooks/Simmons/Jeanty... in a 3-4 alignment couldn't cover me. Can you imagine NFL level TE's and RB's getting a hold of that alignment. Especially with John Thorton playing NT and Robinson and Fanene as the ends. That would be about as horrible as any defense I have ever seen.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Geathers/Brooks/Simmons/Jeanty... in a 3-4 alignment couldn't cover me. Can you imagine NFL level TE's and RB's getting a hold of that alignment. Especially with John Thorton playing NT and Robinson and Fanene as the ends. That would be about as horrible as any defense I have ever seen.

You couldn't have those guys in a 3-4, you'd have 2 converted DE's, one hybrid guy, and an old guy.

Surely this crap about converting Geathers is a joke? THey tried to make him a DT last year, now a LB? How about just let the poor bastard be a DE? Want to make him punt next?

[kayaker0678]

If everything goes right with everyone I would like to see

De Justin Smith-- Give him a chance at low income

NT-- Domato Peko and Sam the man Adams

De Robert Gathers

ROLB Pollack or Landon Johnson

RILB Simmons or a freeagent pick up

LILB Thurman ( I am not ready to give up on him)

LOLB Brooks or Landon Johnson

CB Deltha Onela or Freeagent

SS Madieu Williams

FS Dexter Jackson

CB John Joesph

Nickel KK cause I like him

Dime Tab Perry or Kiewan Ratliff

give tory james to some one where he will become a stud

[HoosierCat]

Dime Tab Perry

[schweinhart]

I really don't get Hobs fixation with Manny Lawson, who has apparently broken the Bengals hearts and was the only player available in the draft last year or free agency who could single-handedly solve all of the team's defensive woes. He might want to check out a 49ers tape -- the Niners switched back to a 4-3 and used Lawson as a SSLB.

[CBin2k7]

You don't sign Geathers to that kind of money and play him out of position. He would be good off the edge as a rush end in a 4-3 defense. The Bengals don't have the players for the 3-4.

I am glad they missed out on Lawson, he had a decent season with the Niners, but where would this pass defense be without Joseph.

[BlainThePain]

I really don't get Hobs fixation with Manny Lawson, who has apparently broken the Bengals hearts and was the only player available in the draft last year or free agency who could single-handedly solve all of the team's defensive woes. He might want to check out a 49ers tape -- the Niners switched back to a 4-3 and used Lawson as a SSLB.

He also said in an earlier article that we were going to draft Anthony Fasano in the second round until Dallas snatched him up in front of us, even though I read quotes from Paul Alexander saying they had Whitworth rated in the first round.

[HairOnFire]

This is all I have to say about the seemingly endless talk about switching to the 3-4....

"These are not the droids you seek."

[GregCook]

Another reaction could be

But seriously this team has defensive holes starting at the dline extending to db. They'll need about 5 higher quality new guys to improve.

3-4 is a joke without freaky football athletes. We don't have them.

This is all I have to say about the seemingly endless talk about switching to the 3-4....

"These are not the droids you seek."

[HoosierCat]

Surely this crap about converting Geathers is a joke? THey tried to make him a DT last year, now a LB? How about just let the poor bastard be a DE? Want to make him punt next?

In that vein, howzabout moving a (successful on the outside) Jeanty to MLB? Here's Hunley in an update to the Pollack story...

Pollack’s injury did allow CFL rookie Rashad Jeanty to make a Pollack-type transition from end to strong-side linebacker while on the job.

But he couldn’t escape physical problems, either. A broken foot knocked Jeanty out of four straight games as Hunley ended up using eight different starting combinations. Still, Jeanty had as many tackles in 12 games as cornerback Tory James had in 16 with 57, and had four pass breakups as well as a forced fumble.

They believe he can rush the passer, but didn’t use him much in that role and he had no sacks.

Hunley said the 242-pound Jeanty has potential to play the middle if Pollack returned but, as Pollack said, it’s a way down the road.

Well, maybe that axes the Pollack-to-DE speculation at least.

My thought is this: next season, the Bengals employ the Paper-Scissors-Rock Magic Helmet Defense (PSRMHD). In the PSRMHD, all the defensive players play paper-scissors-rock until their numbers are reduced to 11. Then every defensive position is written on a piece of paper and put into a helmet. Players pick out a position (no peeking!) and play it.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Marv still seeks his nasty, committed, football loving LB who has a chip on his shoulder and something to prove. Odell let him down.

Pollack, Jeanty, Henderson, Nicholson and Brooks are all classic 3-4 OLB types. The problem is only one of them is not a question mark.

Geathers can play a DE in a 3-4, he needs help though right now in any scheme. I am glad they signed him.

Peko is underrated. He was a solid draft pick.

Thorton and Robinson are junk.

Justin Smith needs to walk.

They need to sign Adelius Thomas and a good DE or CB or DT.

They should draft a C/G or TE or DE or CB or LB with the first pick.

[walshfan]

I dont think Geathers is a 3-4 DE... OLB maybe..

Truth of the matter is that the Bengals dont have lineman to play a 3-4...

Peko isnt a classic NT by any means.. more of a down the line stretch em out tackler..

Adams is too out of shape ....

Shaun Smith is a backup and nothing more ..

Please dont tell me Thornton can play DE in a 3-4..

Robinson is the only DE they have in a 3-4 imo...

This team is built to play a 4-3.......and hardly that!

[Kazkal]

Peko and fanene could both play end as JT and rob could....only semi NT we have is shaun smith so we'd have find one in draft...

[HoTbOy]

IMO we can't play the 4-3 correctly, the secondary is a mess, we can't tackle...and we can't cover...I think you need better athletes than what the Bengals have now to play a 3-4...If they are doing it to apply more pressure on the QB and if they get the right players it may work, but with talk of putting BSimmons in the middle already it's a failure before the project is even started...I don't like the idea of SAdams in the middle, he is not what he was when Baltimore won the SB...

[cincy9275]

i don't think it really matters until we get some talented playmakers on this defense. this defense is full of could have been might be's and never will be. then add that the defensive coaches game planning play calling and everything in between is bush league and half the problem. i don't care what we do if we put this same group on the field with no major upgrades players or coaches. this defense will be once again at the bottom.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Someone Page Kirk

That's seems so strange to me. Josh Kirkendall used to be here every day, now we're lucky to see him once in a blue moon! He's busy running his own website now I suppose. I must say I kinda miss his input here...

Ain't too many of us "old timers" left who visit regularly around here Hoosier. There's "AGrizzlyBaer," "jjakq27," "kingwilly," "BengalSIS," "richmond_mat," "Scottishbengal," "walzav29," "Dimster28," "The 210,""Arizona," and of course our glorious founder/administrator "B24." 2003 was a loooong time ago.

[Kirkendall]

Someone Page Kirk

That's seems so strange to me. Josh Kirkendall used to be here every day, now we're lucky to see him once in a blue moon! He's busy running his own website now I suppose. I must say I kinda miss his input here...

No worries my man.

This I found interesting.

If Smith left, what could a possible 3-4 look like? The Bengals could put Geathers on the right outside, Rashad Jeanty on the left outside, and Ahmad Brooks and Brian Simmons at inside backers. Bryan Robinson, John Thornton and Jonathan Fanene could work at ends, and Domata Peko could probably play both nose tackle and end. Shaun Smith is a prototypical 3-4 nose man and so is Sam Adams, although he might not be wild about it after being a 4-3 guy for 13 seasons

OK, most of you that know me, know that I will bring the 3-4 topic up any chance I get. BUT, if the alignment is anything close to what Hobson has here, I'm not convinced. "If Smith left.." <-- that would hurt the 3-4 theory more than anything. Dump Smith and you have Thornton, Robinson and Fanene at ends. Dear god, would we ever stop the run off the edge? J. Smith, at least, was our best D-line that disrupted the run. Peko and S.Smith at nose? Maybe they would fit well there, I dunno. But what I do know is they were very inconsistent against the single block. In a 3-4, they'd be surely be doubled. Sam Adams would be the most physically natural NT, but has he even played in that alignment in his pro career? Geathers signs a monster deal and we change his position?

I know that Hobs is playing on theory and shuffling the lineup for debate sake. My point is if we do what Hobs suggests, IMHO, we degrade this defense BIG TIME. Brooks is talented and big, but there's a reason why he didn't get much playing time with Thurman's year long suspension and Simmons' injuries. In other words, if he couldn't start every game (i.e. Miller taking over), then what makes us think he can do it now?

[BengalszoneBilly]

Someone Page Kirk

That's seems so strange to me. Josh Kirkendall used to be here every day, now we're lucky to see him once in a blue moon! He's busy running his own website now I suppose. I must say I kinda miss his input here...

No worries my man.

This I found interesting.

If Smith left, what could a possible 3-4 look like? The Bengals could put Geathers on the right outside, Rashad Jeanty on the left outside, and Ahmad Brooks and Brian Simmons at inside backers. Bryan Robinson, John Thornton and Jonathan Fanene could work at ends, and Domata Peko could probably play both nose tackle and end. Shaun Smith is a prototypical 3-4 nose man and so is Sam Adams, although he might not be wild about it after being a 4-3 guy for 13 seasons

OK, most of you that know me, know that I will bring the 3-4 topic up any chance I get. BUT, if the alignment is anything close to what Hobson has here, I'm not convinced. "If Smith left.." <-- that would hurt the 3-4 theory more than anything. Dump Smith and you have Thornton, Robinson and Fanene at ends. Dear god, would we ever stop the run off the edge? J. Smith, at least, was our best D-line that disrupted the run. Peko and S.Smith at nose? Maybe they would fit well there, I dunno. But what I do know is they were very inconsistent against the single block. In a 3-4, they'd be surely be doubled. Sam Adams would be the most physically natural NT, but has he even played in that alignment in his pro career? Geathers signs a monster deal and we change his position?

I know that Hobs is playing on theory and shuffling the lineup for debate sake. My point is if we do what Hobs suggests, IMHO, we degrade this defense BIG TIME. Brooks is talented and big, but there's a reason why he didn't get much playing time with Thurman's year long suspension and Simmons' injuries. In other words, if he couldn't start every game (i.e. Miller taking over), then what makes us think he can do it now?

JOSH!! Good to see you bud!

[Kirkendall]

I've been here, just not talking much. You guys have generated some good debates though. Work and the site has been crushing me though..

[BengalszoneBilly]

I've been here, just not talking much. You guys have generated some good debates though. Work and the site has been crushing me though..

I understand. I visited your site earlier today. Great stuff as usual. Between here at Bengalszone and your cincyjungle, it's all a Bengals fan needs to survive!