What Has Marvin Built?

[derekshank]

Marvin may not have completely revamped the players (specifically on the offense) but he did change the attitude. He created an atmosphere that fostered winning. Marvin did that... no one else.

Are there games where he's been out-coached? Sure. Everyone has them. Belichick was out-coached by his protege Mangini this past Sunday. Players have off-games... coaches do too.

Marvin is great, not only because of his in-game coaching (in fact, I would probably say he's average in that aspect). His greatness comes from his leadership. He completely reformed 15 years of losing into a winner in less than 3 years. You can't buy that. He redefined the Bengals... and the primary reason they are no longer the "Bungles" is becuase of him. That speaks for itself.

[agreen_112]

Marvin may not have completely revamped the players (specifically on the offense) but he did change the attitude. He created an atmosphere that fostered winning. Marvin did that... no one else.

Are there games where he's been out-coached? Sure. Everyone has them. Belichick was out-coached by his protege Mangini this past Sunday. Players have off-games... coaches do too.

Marvin is great, not only because of his in-game coaching (in fact, I would probably say he's average in that aspect). His greatness comes from his leadership. He completely reformed 15 years of losing into a winner in less than 3 years. You can't buy that. He redefined the Bengals... and the primary reason they are no longer the "Bungles" is becuase of him. That speaks for itself.

Thanks D, I couldn't have said that any better myself.

I think Marv has revamped this team into winners. Also into passionate players who give %110 like Kevin Keasviharn and TJ Houshmandzadeh. These are two guys that were absolutely terrible when Marv first arrived here in Cincy. He seen something in these guys, something that no one else did, and stuck with them. Marv has paid off in so many ways like that. Houshmandzadeh has been a gold mine.

Going from 2 wins a year to the playoffs in 3 years??? Are you kidding me? That's insane. If that isn't a revamp than I don't know what the f**k is man.... You know what, I appriciate the thread, and I'll let you have your opinions but I just think that it's pretty f**king insane to question what Marv has done here. I'm just going to stop now before I get pissed off.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Marvin's had 4 drafts/off-seasons.

The defense has gotten worse.

I question how much better it would be with a green Pollack and a mistake-prone Thurman, who was a risky pick in the first place.

Simmons is average, aging and overrated, and usually misses time every year. This defense has never been anything special, or even good, while he's been here his entire career.

Marvin has failed to build even a competent defensive roster.

That said, the talent is not matching up to their performance either. But most importantly, the d-line is not very talented.

Poor job by Marvin of developing the side of the ball he was expected to build when he was brought in here.

I would also say without the fortune of having the first shot at Palmer, and Kitna in place before that, his offense would be a lot worse than it is now, and those two players he owes a lot of his 8-8 records and one year of success to.

Quit drafting idiots and injury-prone sissies, and turn it around - since we're stuck with him for God knows how long now.

I think Marvin is a capable, competent HC, and knows talent, but he's got to do a better job.

The "In Marvin We Trust" bullcrap is just that - B.S. He's no different than any other coach in the league, and has never held this position before either. I don't put blind faith in anybody. Learned that lesson long ago!

[Stripes]

The defense has gotten worse.

This statement is the meat of your post, but when it is blatantly untrue... I don't get it.

The "In Marvin We Trust" bullcrap is just that - B.S. He's no different than any other coach in the league, and has never held this position before either. I don't put blind faith in anybody. Learned that lesson long ago!

That's just the thing. It isn't blind faith in Marvin, it is observed progress.

[SkinneymulleT]

The defense has gotten worse.

This statement is the meat of your post, but when it is blatantly untrue... I don't get it.

The "In Marvin We Trust" bullcrap is just that - B.S. He's no different than any other coach in the league, and has never held this position before either. I don't put blind faith in anybody. Learned that lesson long ago!

That's just the thing. It isn't blind faith in Marvin, it is observed progress.

It is insane blind faith! I think the d has stayed the same. A few quality players and large holes they attempt to fill with inadeqate draft picks, FA's or as some like to refer to it as "good depth". Marvin gambles to much with draft picks. He has done a good job with what he inherited (the offense and brat) but did an inadequate job of building a defense throught the draft.

[Tasher]

Defense worse or not and everything else notwithstanding...

I'll take 8-8; 8-8; 11-5; 4-5 (rest yet to be determined) in a 4 year stretch and give him and his staff a LOT of lattitude over the next 4 or even more years, thank you very much.

[HoosierCat]

It is insane blind faith...A few quality players

A few quality players? Oh ye of little (blind) faith...

kids these days...

[agreen_112]

Marvin's had 4 drafts/off-seasons.

The defense has gotten worse.

I question how much better it would be with a green Pollack and a mistake-prone Thurman, who was a risky pick in the first place.

Simmons is average, aging and overrated, and usually misses time every year. This defense has never been anything special, or even good, while he's been here his entire career.

Marvin has failed to build even a competent defensive roster.

That said, the talent is not matching up to their performance either. But most importantly, the d-line is not very talented.

Poor job by Marvin of developing the side of the ball he was expected to build when he was brought in here.

I would also say without the fortune of having the first shot at Palmer, and Kitna in place before that, his offense would be a lot worse than it is now, and those two players he owes a lot of his 8-8 records and one year of success to.

Quit drafting idiots and injury-prone sissies, and turn it around - since we're stuck with him for God knows how long now.

I think Marvin is a capable, competent HC, and knows talent, but he's got to do a better job.

The "In Marvin We Trust" bullcrap is just that - B.S. He's no different than any other coach in the league, and has never held this position before either. I don't put blind faith in anybody. Learned that lesson long ago!

Sorry shula, your gonna hate me for this, but your a damn fool! You seriously must be forgetting that we don't have any LB's. WE'RE MISSING 3 STARTERS! You have to get that through your head. Do you really think Baltimore would be doing as good as they are if they were missing 3 starting LB's? NO!!! No coach can predict whether or not a guy is going to be prone to injuries. This is just not our year and it's not all Marv's fault. The only thing that you might be right on is that Marv has drafted a few questionable characters. One bit him in the ass and another is a thorn in his ass (Henry). Marv drafted them b/c of their talent and both have showed a tremendous amount of talent. I know for a 100% that this defense would have been extrememly more effective if Pollack, Thurman and Simmons were out there with a healthy Brooks, LJ and Miller at backup. No team in the league has had more injuries this year than we have, it's the way the ball bounces sometimes. We'll continue to grow and build under Marv to get to the SB.

Don't forget your Roots buddy..... "In Marvin We Still Trust"

[johnstownsteel]

Thanks D, I couldn't have said that any better myself.

I think Marv has revamped this team into winners. Also into passionate players who give %110 like Kevin Keasviharn and TJ Houshmandzadeh. These are two guys that were absolutely terrible when Marv first arrived here in Cincy. He seen something in these guys, something that no one else did, and stuck with them. Marv has paid off in so many ways like that. Houshmandzadeh has been a gold mine.

Going from 2 wins a year to the playoffs in 3 years??? Are you kidding me? That's insane. If that isn't a revamp than I don't know what the f**k is man.... You know what, I appriciate the thread, and I'll let you have your opinions but I just think that it's pretty f**king insane to question what Marv has done here. I'm just going to stop now before I get pissed off.

To begin, I apologize if I offended you or the team that you represent. Honestly, that was not my intention. I feel priviledged to have been invited to post in this forum. Don't get me wrong, the smack forum is quite entertaining but for intelligent football talk, I find this area more my cup of tea. That being said, I will try to be less controversial and more sensitive with the topics I chose.

As for this topic, I think you may have misunderstood my opinion of Coach Lewis. As I stated in an earlier post, what Lewis has done is quite remarkable. To take a perennial also-ran and turn them into division champs in his short time there should most definitely be recognized. Having said that, I'm willing to bet you'd be surprised at the list of coaches who have done a comparable job. While Lewis is being touted as a great coach by some, what he has done is not the first nor will it be the last time such an acheivement will be made.

Take Jim Mora Sr. for example. When he took over the Saints in 1986, he led them to a 7-9 record. He followed that up with 12-3 and 10-6 campains. At this point, I'm sure Saints fans were quite thrilled with their coach considering the Saints never had a winning season since their conception (1967). Fast forward to today. How many fans out there consider him a great coach? I'm not really counting but I bet you wouldn't find many. Considering Mora was forced to step down years later, I'm willing to bet fans and the Saints owner at some point in time began to question his performance. Could the same happen to Lewis? I'm amazed that you somehow seem to know.

Look at Bobby Ross. The Chargers hadn't seen a playoff appearance in 10 years. Ross takes over and leads them to 11-5, 8-8 and 11-5 seasons. Heck, he led them to their only Super Bowl appearance. Although I feel he's a pretty darn good coach, many out there see it differently. I could be wrong but seems to me some Charger fans, not all... but some were glad to see him go. At some point they began to question him, or am I just wrong?

Dom Capers...takes an expansion team to the NFC championship in only it's second year of existence. Fired only two short seasons later. Brian Billick rebuilds a Ravens squad who were just as bad when they were the Browns and leads them to a league title in his second year. He's still with them today but he hasn't escaped critisism from both the media and fans. Remember when Jim Haslett took control of a bad Ditka coached team in New Orleans? Saints fans praised him for leading them to the playoffs in his first season as coach. Sad to say, those same fans ran him out of town after one bad year.

While I ask if anyone is beginning to question Marvin and the job he has done, you continue to call me insane or insinuate that I'm some kind of idiot. Judging by the examples that I gave and the others that I decided to leave out, it seems there are many more out there just like me. I'm assuming that if Lewis runs off 3 straight subpar seasons, you'll still back him and not once will you question his performance. If that were true, then I ask you this...when is it acceptable for a fan to question or judge? Five years? Ten years? You tell me since you obviously understand how our psyches should work.

On second thought, let's just forget it before you get really pissed off.

[johnstownsteel]

On a side note, Richard Seymore of the Pats stated that they were out-played and maybe more importantly out-coached in losing to the Jets this past weekend. Wonder if Belichick realizes that he has a few insane idiots on the team who have the audacity to question the coaching.

get em green!

[Stripes]

No worries, JTS... You're obviously just posing valid questions as they come to mind. They address only the Bengals, and without any smack-ish intent, nobody can complain. I'm not sure agreen even intended to call yourself insane, but more the down-in-the-4-and-5-dumps posters around here that actually ARE Bengals fans. Many folks here seem to be stuck in 1998.

Good thread either way. Outside perspective on the broad outlook of our football team is always good to have to balance our biased B/S when necessary.

[agreen_112]

On a side note, Richard Seymore of the Pats stated that they were out-played and maybe more importantly out-coached in losing to the Jets this past weekend. Wonder if Belichick realizes that he has a few insane idiots on the team who have the audacity to question the coaching.

get em green!

You know what JTS, you can twist it however you want, but the question you made in your original post was "What has Marvin Built?" I answered that question for you. From drafting to developing players that he was handed (which were sometimes sucky) into Great NFL players (Houshmandzadeh, Keasviharn, and even Chad Johnson). Marv's our coach, so I don't know if another coach could've done the same.

I'm sure that if the Bengals were to go the next 3 seasons with losing records, which I'm sure you'd love being a Steelers fan, our fans would want Marvin out. Not myself though. I understand how football works and that it's not just an overnight occasion that gets you to the SB. The problem with Cincy is that we're used to losing and that we don't know how to handle a one-in-15 year playoff appearence. Everyone expects us to win the SB. I can give you a really good example of how the fans act in cincy; Henry in his second year, makes a rookie mistake and drops a ball in the endzone that could've tied the game last week. People around here automatically call him out and say things like "You Suck" or "Get the hell out of here" in public (while trying to buy a Playstation 3). Some fans really don't have a clue, and most of them have never played a sport in their lives.

So again, I'll answer your insane question: What has Marvin Built? Step one. Build the offense into one of the top 3 in the NFL. check. Step two. Cut old veterans that don't want to be here (Dillon and Spikes) and draft young talent that will give us good solid production. Check, check, check, check, minus a few questionable characters. Step 3 Build the fan base by promising victory and proving it on Sundays (I think we've sold out for a few years straight). Check. Step 4. Make the playoffs.

I could go on and on about how Marvin has built this team and continues to build. If I were you I would start to worry about how its going to feel being in the middle of the div. as long as Marvin is our head coach.

btw, I'm not directly calling you insane, really just the thought of anyone questioning what Marvin has built here in Cincinnati.