A common thread: no playmakers on D/real reason...Marvin's D

[schweinhart]

Jumpy Jr. indeed looks like his 2004 self. He's showing that kind of quickness again that marked his knack for making the big play in 2004. Gotta wonder what the hell the staff was thinking in beefing him up and sticking him at RDE last year. I would like to see him as leaned out as possible because with the kind of contain he showed with Vick, the kind of depth he had when he laid out Trent Green and the ability he has shown in short area coverage when dropping back from end, he should be able to play strong side LB and do it better than Jeanty probably can.

On the whole, though, I don't get the ramrod to the defense. This is by far the best D Marvin has had even w/o Pollack and O'Dumb. They botched the gameplan vs. the Pats by letting the D-line get too far spread apart and they picked a tack vs. the Falcons that only an incredible performance by their QB could overcome. Other than those 2 games, where's the beef with the D? I find it unfounded and watching them play should make it more obvious that the defense is it's closest to arriving in the Marvin era.

[Bengalhead]

Justin Smith has 6.5 sacks, just under one per game. Half the board KNEW that would happen once the Bengals upgraded the DT spot. He IS blossoming into a good pass rusher. Geathers too.

Thats pretty convenient in a contract year, isn't it? Sam Adams is not the game changing force like we expected him to be so I don't contribute Smiths added production to him. However, it really is amazing at the amount of production a guy can put out when he stand to make more money at the end of the year. Smith's production, while a plus for the team, is merely the product of him setting himself up for a big contract next year. And for the record, I don't care if he leaves because he has PROVEN with his stats that he is an AVERAGE DE unless it's a contract year.

Well... Sam Adams may not have seemed like a "game changing force"... but there is no question that the rotation of Adams, Peko, Thornton and S. Smith is much improved from last year. What has it caused? Justin Smith isn't double and triple covered every play. This is why he is one of the league leaders in sacks. Not because of a contract year.

Even the Smith detractors don't usually attempt to say he is lazy... just unskilled. He's always been a hard worker, and we're finally seeing that he actually has skill to go along with it. We finally we have a DT rotation that allows him to be one on one. We're finally seeing the production that we drafted... and that I personally believe he always would have had if he hadn't been alone. He always plays with a lot of pride... so I don't think you can write it off as a money issue. He's just finally getting some help.

I don't have any problems with his effort either. He is a motor guy - proving that with the amount of tacles he racks up each year after the line of scrimmage. But if I see him leave his gap one more time I'm going to pop a vein in my head. The guy is high motor, but he leaves his assignments too frequently trying to get in on where the play is assumed to be going. But when the is misdirection (QB rollout, end around, etc.) he is constantly out of position.

I don't agree with the notion that he is constantly double teamed. However, I will say that they did more stunting in years past - which of course, brings him inside. His ineffectiveness in pror years tells me that he's an average pass rusher - not a bad one, but certainly not the #4 pick in the draft pass rusher

[derekshank]

I don't agree with the notion that he is constantly double teamed.

That's okay. You don't have to agree for it to be true. Go watch the tapes. He was double-teamed more often than not in years past.

[HairOnFire]

I don't have any problems with his effort either. He is a motor guy - proving that with the amount of tacles he racks up each year after the line of scrimmage. But if I see him leave his gap one more time I'm going to pop a vein in my head. The guy is high motor, but he leaves his assignments too frequently trying to get in on where the play is assumed to be going. But when the is misdirection (QB rollout, end around, etc.) he is constantly out of position.

Not true. For an example of a DE who was always out of position on rollouts, end arounds, and simple screen passes just remind yourself of what it was like watching Robert Geathers last season or Duane Clemons in any of the seasons prior to that. Hell, Clemons flat out played himself out of a starting position due to his inability to read and diagnose the type of play that was coming. Smith has never had this problem...even when he was a rookie.

All DE's are vulnerable to offensive plays that are designed to take advantage of their aggression. It's simple cat and mouse stuff designed to slow a DE's pass rush, and it's always going to work to a point. The key is making enough plays defensively to remain aggressive more often than not, and Smith has always managed to do that. This year has been no different.

If there is a problem with Smith's game it is his habit of "cheating" or lining up in splits so wide that he loses all chance of getting interior help on a play. Playing alone, on an island, he can be swamped or overwhelmed by blockers. That said, he's rarely guilty of this type of cheating, and usually does so only against blockers he knows he can beat with regularity if given enough room to work. To be perfectly fair, it's an example of a DE getting greedy or losing containment in an effort to set a blocker up for a sack, but by the same token it happens to every defender worth watching.

Frankly, the biggest complaint leveled against Smith for years now is that his habit of endless bullrushing is uncreative and too deliberate, but I've argued, to the death, that it is a proven weapon that provides a poor defensive line a very consistent low risk pass rush that, while a beat slower than ideal, allowed the Bengals to time the play and force throws. That said, with the emergence of Robert Geathers as a pass rushing bookend Smith is now allowed more freedom to take risks and not surprisingly his production has increased dramatically.....a very important point that rather predictably means very little to the critics who'll never allow themselves to get over the fact that Smith was the 4th overall pick in the draft.

Whine, bitch, and moan. For my money there simply isn't a more clueless group of complainers than those who continue to slag the play of Justin Smith.

[Tasher]

You Justin Hater!

[Bengalhead]

I don't agree with the notion that he is constantly double teamed.

That's okay. You don't have to agree for it to be true. Go watch the tapes. He was double-teamed more often than not in years past.

I've watched the games. I'm not stupid. You can chose to ignore his stats if you want and make excuses too. My point is that he is a decent end but one that has consistently underproduced with the pass rush. I don't want to hear excuses about double teams. Look at the best ends in the game - Strahan, Peppers, et. al. They all get double teamed too, yet they manage to make the plays. His numbers show that he is an average DE. It's that simple. Look, I'm the first one to cheer when he makes plays. I don't dislike the guy. He is setting himself up to make some good money next year. Again, I don't blame him. I'd do it too. But lets face reality hear and look at his stats since he's been here.

I don't have any problems with his effort either. He is a motor guy - proving that with the amount of tacles he racks up each year after the line of scrimmage. But if I see him leave his gap one more time I'm going to pop a vein in my head. The guy is high motor, but he leaves his assignments too frequently trying to get in on where the play is assumed to be going. But when the is misdirection (QB rollout, end around, etc.) he is constantly out of position.

Not true. For an example of a DE who was always out of position on rollouts, end arounds, and simple screen passes just remind yourself of what it was like watching Robert Geathers last season or Duane Clemons in any of the seasons prior to that. Hell, Clemons flat out played himself out of a starting position due to his inability to read and diagnose the type of play that was coming. Smith has never had this problem...even when he was a rookie.

All DE's are vulnerable to offensive plays that are designed to take advantage of their aggression. It's simple cat and mouse stuff designed to slow a DE's pass rush, and it's always going to work to a point. The key is making enough plays defensively to remain aggressive more often than not, and Smith has always managed to do that. This year has been no different.

If there is a problem with Smith's game it is his habit of "cheating" or lining up in splits so wide that he loses all chance of getting interior help on a play. Playing alone, on an island, he can be swamped or overwhelmed by blockers. That said, he's rarely guilty of this type of cheating, and usually does so only against blockers he knows he can beat with regularity if given enough room to work. To be perfectly fair, it's an example of a DE getting greedy or losing containment in an effort to set a blocker up for a sack, but by the same token it happens to every defender worth watching.

Frankly, the biggest complaint leveled against Smith for years now is that his habit of endless bullrushing is uncreative and too deliberate, but I've argued, to the death, that it is a proven weapon that provides a poor defensive line a very consistent low risk pass rush that, while a beat slower than ideal, allowed the Bengals to time the play and force throws. That said, with the emergence of Robert Geathers as a pass rushing bookend Smith is now allowed more freedom to take risks and not surprisingly his production has increased dramatically.....a very important point that rather predictably means very little to the critics who'll never allow themselves to get over the fact that Smith was the 4th overall pick in the draft.

Whine, bitch, and moan. For my money there simply isn't a more clueless group of complainers than those who continue to slag the play of Justin Smith.

Well, your well thought out explanation doesn't cover up his lack of sack production. As I said earlier, I think he is an ok end. But frankly, when we spent the #4 pick in the draft on the guy, I expected better results. and yes, it would have made a difference if the guy was a 5th round pick. Don't kid yourself into thinking it doesn't make a difference in how people view his production. I agree that draft status does not make one single play in the NFL, but you have to agree that certain expectations are set based on them.

[Stripes]

Who gives a crap where he was drafted?!

He is what he is what he is what he is what he is what he is. Had he been drafted in the 5th round, people would have called him the steal of the draft, and one of the best Bengals picks this decade. His draft spot is completely meaningless now.

If people think he is an average DE because of his career production alone, then fine. If someone thinks he is an average DE because his career production doesn't reflect that of a #4 overall pick, they are ignoring every relavant fact in the discussion.

[Tasher]

Who gives a crap where he was drafted?!

He is what he is what he is what he is what he is what he is. Had he been drafted in the 5th round, people would have called him the steal of the draft, and one of the best Bengals picks this decade. His draft spot is completely meaningless now.

If people think he is an average DE because of his career production alone, then fine. If someone thinks he is an average DE because his career production doesn't reflect that of a #4 overall pick, they are ignoring every relavant fact in the discussion.

So, wait a minute TDB, let me get this straight...

What is he?

[HairOnFire]

Well, your well thought out explanation doesn't cover up his lack of sack production.

That's because there is no lack of sack production. If Justin gets a new contract and remains a Bengal, and absolutely nothing about his game changes, he'll very likely finish as the all-time franchise sack leader. Knowing that to be true I see no reason to offer excuses or cover ups for Smith's level of play.

He's damn good. In fact, anyone who offers him a backhanded compliment stating that he's an average DE deserves a swift boot to their head.

One of the things I've attempted to do dozens of times over the past months and years is explain to critics why Smith hasn't routinely produced double digit sack totals, and I've done it so often that most of the readers here could write my posts for me without any further input from me. But sadly, when it comes to Smith's most vocal critics I've learned the hard lesson that it's almost impossible to get a dumbass to recognize when he's being a dumbass no matter how hard you true to show them the obvious. No disrespect intended, BengalHead. (You're new to this rant, so you get a pass.)

That said, I find it rather amazing that we continue to hear the exact same criticisms lobbed at Smith even when he's on pace for 15-16 sacks. Shouldn't the debate change when your data demands it change? However, in this case the debate never changes because you guys are too busy holding Smith up to a level of production that has only existed in their minds from the day he was drafted. Most of you have never graded the guy on what you actually see. Instead, you just keep slagging him because he isn't what you expected or wanted.

Well, tough. Go pound sand up your pipe until you feel better....or until you find you can stop slagging a damn good football player.

Last nugget. Just prior to the Falcon game the announcers mentioned that the Bengals intended to contain Vick by copying the strategy used by the Eagles in a 2004 game. In short, the defense features a "Mush Rush" where none of the defensive lineman actually rush the QB very hard. Instead, they all bull rush, stacking and walking back the blockers, until finally attempting to shed them away from wherever Vick has moved to. Job one, as well as jobs two and three, are to maintain containment at all times.

In other words, Bengal pass rushers punched the clock last week and did what they've almost always done for longer than Marvin has been a head coach.

[membengal]

Standing ovation, hair. Top shelf.

[Bengalhead]

Well, your well thought out explanation doesn't cover up his lack of sack production.

That's because there is no lack of sack production. If Justin gets a new contract and remains a Bengal, and absolutely nothing about his game changes, he'll very likely finish as the all-time franchise sack leader. Knowing that to be true I see no reason to offer excuses or cover ups for Smith's level of play.

He's damn good. In fact, anyone who offers him a backhanded compliment stating that he's an average DE deserves a swift boot to their head.

One of the things I've attempted to do dozens of times over the past months and years is explain to critics why Smith hasn't routinely produced double digit sack totals, and I've done it so often that most of the readers here could write my posts for me without any further input from me. But sadly, when it comes to Smith's most vocal critics I've learned the hard lesson that it's almost impossible to get a dumbass to recognize when he's being a dumbass no matter how hard you true to show them the obvious. No disrespect intended, BengalHead. (You're new to this rant, so you get a pass.)

That said, I find it rather amazing that we continue to hear the exact same criticisms lobbed at Smith even when he's on pace for 15-16 sacks. Shouldn't the debate change when your data demands it change? However, in this case the debate never changes because you guys are too busy holding Smith up to a level of production that has only existed in their minds from the day he was drafted. Most of you have never graded the guy on what you actually see. Instead, you just keep slagging him because he isn't what you expected or wanted.

Well, tough. Go pound sand up your pipe until you feel better....or until you find you can stop slagging a damn good football player.

Last nugget. Just prior to the Falcon game the announcers mentioned that the Bengals intended to contain Vick by copying the strategy used by the Eagles in a 2004 game. In short, the defense features a "Mush Rush" where none of the defensive lineman actually rush the QB very hard. Instead, they all bull rush, stacking and walking back the blockers, until finally attempting to shed them away from wherever Vick has moved to. Job one, as well as jobs two and three, are to maintain containment at all times.

In other words, Bengal pass rushers punched the clock last week and did what they've almost always done for longer than Marvin has been a head coach.

Thanks for the free pass. However, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree to an extent on this one. I feel the need to restate this repeatedly due to the sledgehammer responses to my posts regarding Smith, but I LIKE THE GUY. My point was originally that we weren't seeing the sack production that we're getting out of him this year in years past and that it seems to be rather interesting that his production has gone up now that he is in a contract year. Now, if you contend that this is because of scheme, or other players around him, then fine. I won't try to dispute that. But it still looks curious to me.

And you're right. Once he is on the field, it doesn't make bit of difference where he was drafted. But I'm not changing my opinion that expectations are set - often based on draft status, or for the amount of freee agent money spent to acquire a player. Ignore it if you want, put your head in the sand, call people names, but it has an effect on peoples' expectations of a players performance. And I'll save you the time of responding by saying those who say this don't know what they're talking about.

I don't care if you don't like my opinion. What I do care about are Bengal victories. I'm not a stupid football fan and just because my opinion isn't the same as yours doesn't mean I'm a dumbass. Now, can we all agree that we are all Bengals fans in here and that we all want to see them win? We disagree from time to time but lets not forget that we're all rooting for the same team!

[Bengalhead]

Last nugget. Just prior to the Falcon game the announcers mentioned that the Bengals intended to contain Vick by copying the strategy used by the Eagles in a 2004 game. In short, the defense features a "Mush Rush" where none of the defensive lineman actually rush the QB very hard. Instead, they all bull rush, stacking and walking back the blockers, until finally attempting to shed them away from wherever Vick has moved to. Job one, as well as jobs two and three, are to maintain containment at all times.

In other words, Bengal pass rushers punched the clock last week and did what they've almost always done for longer than Marvin has been a head coach.

[HairOnFire]

OK then, so there is no issue whatsoever with the defensive line, right? Is that what you're saying?

No, I've said the exact opposite.

Look, this debate has played out over many threads and in each of them I've been very firm in my belief that from the moment he was drafted Justin Smith has been the best player on a consistently bad defensive line. And as the Bengals best defensive lineman, and one of very few defenders that opposing teams have an incentive to gameplan against, I think it's obvious that Smith has had to change his game to best fit in with a bad unit. Due to being paired with clueless players like Duane Clemons or a Robert Geathers who wasn't yet ready to play a staters role, Smith has long been asked to play a safe, low risk, conservative style of play that stresses containment over playmaking....a fact of life that was never going to change until the Bengals defensive line developed other players who could make plays, produce sacks of their own, and on occassion demand the double team attention that Justin Smith used to get by default.

The idea that Smith is suddenly producing because it's a contract season conveniently ignores the fact that Smith has always been a player whose effort and intensity have always been above reproach. So I ask you, how does a player whose previous level of effort can't be questioned suddenly find himself in a position where he can turn it up to the next level? Regardless of what factor might motivate Smith...how can he give more than 100% he was already giving?

The correct answer is he can't. Thus, the increased sack production that you can't seem to understand has to be the product of a different factor...like finally playing with better talent. And the only proof you need of that is found at the opposite DE position, where the rise in Robert Geather's sack production is even more amazing than Smiths. Best of all, Geathers is producing sacks without making the endless series of mistakes that Duane Clemons once made. So with both flanks reasonable secure there's a little less demand for conservative DE play. Finally, factor in the few occasions where Fat Sam Adams draws the occasion interior double team and it's no wonder that Smith & Geathers suddenly have a little more freedom to work.

There's no mystery here.

[Tasher]

Petition:

Release Justin Smith NOW.

Sign Eric Henderson from Practice Squad!

[derekshank]

The idea that Smith is suddenly producing because it's a contract season conveniently ignores the fact that Smith has always been a player whose effort and intensity have always been above reproach. So I ask you, how does a player whose previous level of effort can't be questioned suddenly find himself in a position where he can turn it up to the next level? Regardless of what factor might motivate Smith...how can he give more than 100% he was already giving?

There it is. Smith-detractors can criticize and ridicule Smith all they want… but whatever they want to say about Smith, they've never been able to complain about his effort. So there are only 2 options here.

1) He was asked to play a safe role where his production was constantly criticized because of the talent level around him; or

2) He was a bum for all these years who has only recently learned how to play the position.

In either case, it is safe to assume that this high-level of production is here to stay. And if it is here to stay, there isn't much left to debate. We need to re-sign the fool.

[BengalPimp]

No playmakers on D, a continuing myth (gosh, did the Bengals lose this weekend? I can't tell from the even-handed responses and threads on this board)

Deltha O'Neal has defined playmaker since coming to this team, and the Pro Bowl apeparance for him was no joke. Madieu Williams does nothing but make plays. And, right now, there are two ends (despite the slander tossed Justin Smith's way on this board) who are also "playmakers"---Smith and Geathers (who is getting better all the time). That's four I am comfortable with on defense. Tell you what, in three starts, Ahmad Brooks has all the earmarks of "playmaker". That's five.

So, five off the top of my head, depending on what your definition of the nebulous term "playmaker" is.

High dollar free agent? Who would that be, exactly? Impact free agents on defense are few and far between. How is John Abraham working out in Atlanta? Oh, that's right, he's only played 31 downs this year due to injury. Is Brian Urlacher going to be available anytime soon? No? What about other impact guys? What? Teams either lock them up or franchise them? Really? But...But... isn't real life NFL just like Madden? It's not?

Shocking.

As for the notion that this season so far is "painful", a serious question, just what the f**k were your expectations? Carson Palmer coming off a devastating knee injury and a schedule that could only be described as brutal---not exactly a recipe for unbridled optimism. Plenty of observers, both on this board and in the media noted the Bengals could be better than last year and not win as many games as 2005. A bunch in here, me included, thought 10 wins would be about right for this team, give or take one. It's a tough schedule, but this is a tough team. They are a few plays away from 6-1. They are a few plays away from 2-5. Such is life in the NFL in general. So, pardon me for being somewhat pleased, in light of all the injuries they have sustained, and Palmer's uncertainty to start the year and his lack of practice all off-season, and in light of their schedule, for being 4-3 at this point with a chance to get to 5-3 and tied for first in the division and a 3-0 division record at the halfway point. Not a bad opportunity. Hopefully they can take advantage of it. If they can't, hopefully it rights itself the next week. No reason with this team it can't.

GREAT FRIGGIN POST.....AGREE 110%

[schweinhart]

I'm getting more intrigued by where the Bengals will line up Justin Smith tomorrow. I watched the Ratbird O-line coach say they expect him to be lined up against the RT rather than Ogden, which does seem to be the smart move by the Bengals, since it would seem better not to waste Smith's talents vs. a LT who shuts him down and cleans him out....But Justin is having a great season and is as always a passionate, relentless player. I'm guessing that Justin is lobbying the coaches for the chance to square off vs. Ogden. Talk about the op to be crowned a big-time playmaker, it's right in front of him. Won't change his overall value as a NFL 4-3 DE, which is substantial regardless, but sure would be a nice shiny ring on his finger to point to in the open market.

[tibor75]

Justin having a great season? Hilarious.

Why do Bengal fans have no concept of what it means to be a playmaker or a great defender?

Smith is having a good year. But great? Give me a break. This guy is nowhere close to being a pro bowl player. He's a BUST. HE'll never be the playmaker that we need, but a lazy player who has 1 move that he uses over and over again.

Madeau Williams...playmaker? Man, oh man, does the delusions ever stop?

If you have 5 playmakers on offense which one clueless person said, you would be a great D. Do we have a great D? Oh, that's right, it's the fault of the scheme. Or the refs.

[HoosierCat]

Ah, I see the "Candyman" rule still holds true:

"Justin Smith"

"Justin Smith"

"Justin Smith"

And like magic, tibor appears.

[tibor75]

Reading this tread, I am shocked at the ignorance of those who defend the defense.

I love how people name all hte great players, but then don't even think to wonder why the defense sucks? maybe the players stink?

I also love how people say to be patient. Uh, it's been 4 years. That's plenty long enough. And the D is just as bad as it was 4 years.

Blame Kimo all you wnat for last year. Because anybody who knows anything knows the D was never going to get us to the Super Bowl.

[membengal]

tibor, have you returned from your goat buggery for another chance to display your abject ignorance? Do us all a favor and return to fellating goats and spare us your attempts at rational thought.

[101Airborne]

Justin having a great season? Hilarious.

Why do Bengal fans have no concept of what it means to be a playmaker or a great defender?

Smith is having a good year. But great? Give me a break. This guy is nowhere close to being a pro bowl player. He's a BUST. HE'll never be the playmaker that we need, but a lazy player who has 1 move that he uses over and over again.

Madeau Williams...playmaker? Man, oh man, does the delusions ever stop?

If you have 5 playmakers on offense which one clueless person said, you would be a great D. Do we have a great D? Oh, that's right, it's the fault of the scheme. Or the refs.

As I said before, we have playmakers. Playmakers are players who can come up with huge plays that swing the momentum of the game, interceptions and forced fumbles. The Bengals had the most interceptions in the league last year with 31. The second highest was 24, so it wasn't even close. We were right about average for forcing fumbles with 13 and the highest last year being 19. What we lack is not playmaking ability, what we lack is a disciplined defense.

We make plays very well but the consistency is just not there. When it comes to the huge hit or the big interception we have it, when it comes to tackling the ball carrier or staying in the gaps we don't. That was and still is our problem. Also, anyone who knew anything about football said the Steelers had no chance of winning the SB last year when they came in as the 6th seed. Anyone who knew anything about football said the Raiders had 0 chance of defeating the Steelers last week.

What kills me is that you yourself admit Justin Smith is having a good year and yet in the same breath you call him lazy and claim he is a 1 move wonder. So every player who is not Pro Bowl calibur is a bust? You contradict yourself sir.

[schweinhart]

Justin having a great season? Hilarious.

I'd say he is having a great season. 8th in sacks and I believe his 40 tackles ties him with Julius Peppers for most by a DE. Plus he's on a pace to finish way ahead of his personal best for tackles. I'm laughing anyway.

[Stripes]

Justin having a great season? Hilarious.

Why do Bengal fans have no concept of what it means to be a playmaker or a great defender?

Smith is having a good year. But great? Give me a break. This guy is nowhere close to being a pro bowl player. He's a BUST. HE'll never be the playmaker that we need, but a lazy player who has 1 move that he uses over and over again.

There it is. You have no choice but to grant that Justin is having a good year thus far because you've seen it on the field. Regardless, you continue to grasp for reasons to crap on him. You're arguing his draft position, not his performance. Guess what, 2001 was five years ago.

Madeau Williams...playmaker? Man, oh man, does the delusions ever stop?

Care to offer a counter-point rather than these predictable and stupid one-liners? Do you have a counter-point? Do you know how to spell Madieu's friggin' name?

If you have 5 playmakers on offense which one clueless person said, you would be a great D. Do we have a great D? Oh, that's right, it's the fault of the scheme. Or the refs.

Oh yeah, impecable logic there. Of course a defense struggles only because of the talent involved rather than the scheme or the experience of the players in question.

You don't even believe half the garbage you type. Congratulations on sparking as many responses as you'd hoped for.

[tibor75]

IF there are playmakers on defense, why does the defense suck? Why is our D one of the worst in the league year after year?

Last year against Pitt in the playoffs, Kitna helped us get 17 points. For ANY other team that weekend, that would have been enough to win. For our pathetic D, it wasn't even close.

Why do people defend garbage like Smith, williams, Suckeverharn, Simmons, Johnson and then wonder why the D sucks as bad as it does?

Gee, if all the players you say are great, really are, our D would actually be as good as the Bears.

Comical.

Smith is 8th in sacks, and people are ready to anoint him for the HOF.