willie and johnson/I've got to get this off my Chest..

[HairOnFire]

The Bengals did abandon the power running game on the most critical drive of the game. After Atlanta scored the go ahead touchdown to make it 26-20, The Bengals went three and out. No runs, except for the TJ end around that lost 7 yards. The Bengals ran the ball zero times after the 2:15 mark in the 3rd quarter.

Rudi claimed the Bengals abandoned the run while the game was still in the 1st quarter, and without looking at the stats I'd have to agree with him. My gut tells me there was no reason for doing so, and it stings even more after reading the remarks of Falcon defenders who admitted that their gameplan was to leave the middle lightly defended while constantly blitzing from the edges. That blitzing put intense pass rush heat on Palmer and forced him into countless checkdowns for small gains. So what might have happened if the Bengals had chosen to counter with a power running game up the middle?

[Walrus]

The Bengals certainly didnt run as much as they could have. What I DON'T know is, how much of that is Brat calling pass after pass, and how much is Carson audibling at the line? I look at the comment (Willie's, I think) about trying to do too much and I wonder if that isn't aimed at Palmer...

That's what I read....Palmer. But it's Carson's show and not Big Willie's. He just the right tackle.

Bottom line is the 27 points. And that's enough to win. Had they run Rudi more, it would've worked well and would've slowed the game down and kept Vick off the field more. But I'm not sold that it would've changed the outcome because the Falcons would've done on offense what they did do.

And despite the 29 points, I thought the defensive gameplan was the right one...Force Vick to win with his arm by keeping him in the pocket as long as possible. The Bengals secondary is light years ahead of what it was last year and the outcome of the game came down to Vick executing on 4 or 5 throws with a couple of them coming of his WRs doing some improv.

The Bengals just got beat by a QB on top of his game. Regardless of the gameplans on either side of the ball by both teams, these 2 teams probably split if they played each other more.

Exactly! We didn't suck. We played well... they just played better. What is it about a fanbase that wants to blame someone on their own team for a loss? If you want to blame someone... blame Vick. We get pissed off when Steelers fans say they gave games away, rather than admitting that another team was just better than them... but we do the same thing.

We want to know who is responsible for the loss... assiming that the guy responsible is someone who didn't step up for the Bengals. Just maybe they were the better team on this given Sunday. Vick played absolutely out of his mind... and we lost by 2 points!!! It's never fun to lose... but sometimes you have to give credit where it's due. They won because they deserved to... not because we gave the game away.

Hear hear. I think we probably executed our game plan pretty well -- but I also think if we had it to do over again, the plan would probably look different. Planning under the assumption that he would throw a pick or complete only half his passes just didn't work. Vick is playing out of his mind right now.

That said, as far as the runnning game is concerned, I think Willie and Rudi are probably justified in their frustration. Seems like we need to tweak the way Carson is doing his play-calling and audibles to balance out the attack more.

[HoosierCat]

Rudi claimed the Bengals abandoned the run while the game was still in the 1st quarter, and without looking at the stats I'd have to agree with him.

Unfortunately, Rudi's exagerrating a bit. Here's the team's drives in the second half:

1-10-CIN28 (14:54) C.Palmer pass incomplete deep left to C.Johnson.

2-10-CIN28 (14:46) R.Johnson up the middle to CIN 27 for -1 yards (P.Kerney; G.Jackson).

3-11-CIN27 (14:08) (Shotgun)

PENALTY on CIN-E.Ghiaciuc, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CIN 27 - No Play.

3-16-CIN22 (13:59) (Shotgun) C.Palmer pass incomplete deep middle to C.Johnson [R.Coleman].

4-16-CIN22 (13:54) K.Larson punts 41 yards to ATL 37, Center-B.St. Louis. A.Rossum to ATL 35 for -2 yards (K.Kaesviharn).

1 run, 2 passes, punt

1-10-CIN30 (9:50) C.Palmer pass short middle to C.Johnson to CIN 45 for 15 yards (D.Hall; E.Hartwell). Penalty on ATL-J.Webster, Illegal Use of Hands, declined.

1-10-CIN45 (9:28) R.Johnson left tackle to CIN 45 for no gain (K.Brooking; D.Williams).

2-10-CIN45 (8:45) R.Johnson left end to CIN 49 for 4 yards (K.Brooking).

3-6-CIN49 (8:06) C.Palmer pass short middle to R.Kelly to ATL 43 for 8 yards (K.Brooking).

1-10-ATL43 (7:33) R.Johnson left tackle to ATL 38 for 5 yards (L.Milloy; D.Williams).

2-5-ATL38 (7:09) C.Palmer pass short right to C.Johnson pushed ob at ATL 29 for 9 yards (D.Hall).

1-10-ATL29 (6:47) C.Palmer pass incomplete deep left to C.Henry.

PENALTY on ATL-P.Kerney, Roughing the Passer, 15 yards, enforced at ATL 29 - No Play. Penalty on ATL-C.Crocker, Defensive Holding, declined.

1-10-ATL14 (6:40) R.Johnson right guard to ATL 8 for 6 yards (L.Milloy; E.Hartwell).

2-4-ATL8 (6:00) R.Johnson left guard to ATL 10 for -2 yards (G.Jackson).

3-6-ATL10 (5:21) C.Palmer pass short left to T.Houshmandzadeh to ATL 8 for 2 yards (K.Mathis).

4-4-ATL8 (4:39) S.Graham 26 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-B.St. Louis, Holder-K.Larson.

5 runs, 5 passes, FG

1-10-CIN27 (2:15) T.Houshmandzadeh to CIN 20 for -7 yards (J.Babineaux). {Reverse}

2-17-CIN20 (1:38) PENALTY on CIN-C.Palmer, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CIN 20 - No Play.

2-22-CIN15 (1:15) C.Palmer pass short right to C.Johnson pushed ob at CIN 30 for 15 yards.

3-7-CIN30 (:41) (Shotgun) C.Palmer pass short left to C.Henry to CIN 32 for 2 yards (D.Williams).

4-5-CIN32 (:03) K.Larson punts 42 yards to ATL 26, Center-B.St. Louis. A.Rossum pushed ob at ATL 26 for no gain (K.Watson).

1 run, 2 passes, punt

Now it's Q4 down by 9:

1-10-CIN20 (7:42) C.Palmer pass short right to C.Perry to CIN 21 for 1 yard (J.Webster).

2-9-CIN21 (7:09) C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle to C.Johnson.

3-9-CIN21 (7:04) C.Palmer pass deep right to C.Johnson ran ob at CIN 41 for 20 yards. Play Challenged by ATL and Upheld. (Timeout #1 by ATL.)

1-10-CIN41 (6:48) C.Palmer pass short right to C.Henry to CIN 43 for 2 yards (J.Webster).

2-8-CIN43 (6:26) C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle to R.Johnson (J.Babineaux). {Knocked down at the line of scrimmage}

3-8-CIN43 (6:20) (Shotgun) C.Palmer sacked at CIN 35 for -8 yards (C.Crocker).

4-16-CIN35 (5:46) K.Larson punts 49 yards to ATL 16, Center-B.St. Louis. A.Rossum to ATL 13 for -3 yards (G.Holt; A.Frazier).

0 runs, 6 passes, punt. In their defense they never had less that 8 yards to go for a first.

1-10-CIN45 (3:49) C.Palmer pass deep middle to C.Henry for 55 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

S.Graham extra point is GOOD, Center-B.St. Louis, Holder-K.Larson.

1 pass, TD. Any complaints?

After that they got the ball with 19 seconds left on their own 17. Can't run there.

[bengalsfansince68]

I am amazed at how many people can't see this, especially F-ing Bratkowski

In the 2005 season when Rudi got 20 or more carries, the Bengals were 9 - 0

When he got less than 20, the Bengals were 2 - 6

So far this season, when Rudi gets 20 or more carries the Bengals are 3 - 0.

When he gets less than 20 carries rhe Bengals are 1 - 3.

Do the math guys, Bratkowski is an idiot who has no clue how important the run game is in the NFL

Please Marv, find an OC who knows the importance of the run.

[aaronburr]

Whether the debate is about abandoning the run or avoiding the vertical game, if you have a one-dimensional offense, you're not going to win against a good team.

That being said, if you can score 27+ points with a pass-only game plan, you should do it, right? As long as you don't mind putting your defense back on the field every 5 or 6 minutes.

But if your defense is struggling to keep the other team from answering every scoring drive you put together, then maybe you need to lengthen your drives and keep the other team's offense off the field.

By the way, where's the breakdown of the 2nd quarter possessions?

[HoosierCat]

By the way, where's the breakdown of the 2nd quarter possessions?

1-10-CIN20 (11:12) T.Houshmandzadeh left end ran ob at CIN 33 for 13 yards (L.Milloy). {Reverse}

1-10-CIN33 (10:42) C.Palmer pass deep right to T.Houshmandzadeh to ATL 48 for 19 yards (C.Crocker).

1-10-ATL48 (10:08) C.Perry right end to ATL 44 for 4 yards (K.Brooking).

2-6-ATL44 (9:36) C.Palmer pass short middle to C.Perry to ATL 33 for 11 yards (K.Brooking).

1-10-ATL33 (9:02) C.Perry right guard to ATL 26 for 7 yards (J.Babineaux).

2-3-ATL26 (8:36) C.Palmer pass short right to C.Johnson pushed ob at ATL 19 for 7 yards (J.Webster; L.Milloy).

1-10-ATL19 (8:02) C.Palmer scrambles up the middle to ATL 12 for 7 yards (M.Boley).

2-3-ATL12 (7:20) C.Palmer pass short left to C.Johnson for 12 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

S.Graham extra point is GOOD, Center-B.St. Louis, Holder-K.Larson.

4 runs, 4 passes, TD

1-10-CIN20 (1:54) K.Watson up the middle to CIN 23 for 3 yards (D.Shropshire).

2-7-CIN23 (1:32) C.Palmer pass short right to C.Henry pushed ob at CIN 30 for 7 yards (J.Webster).

1-10-CIN30 (1:28) (Shotgun) C.Palmer pass incomplete short left to C.Johnson.

2-10-CIN30 (1:23) C.Palmer pass incomplete to K.Watson.

3-10-CIN30 (1:19) C.Palmer pass deep middle to T.Houshmandzadeh to CIN 47 for 17 yards (J.Webster).

1-10-CIN47 (1:12) C.Palmer pass incomplete short middle to C.Johnson.

2-10-CIN47 (1:09) (Shotgun)

PENALTY on CIN-E.Ghiaciuc, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CIN 47 - No Play.

2-15-CIN42 (1:09) (Shotgun) C.Palmer pass short right to T.Stewart pushed ob at ATL 46 for 12 yards (D.Williams).

PENALTY on ATL-K.Mathis, Defensive Holding, 5 yards, enforced at CIN 42 - No Play.

1-10-CIN47 (1:01) C.Palmer pass short middle to T.Houshmandzadeh to ATL 35 for 18 yards (D.Williams) [J.Mallard].

1-10-ATL35 (:38) C.Palmer pass short middle to T.Stewart to ATL 32 for 3 yards (L.Milloy).

2-7-ATL32 (:31) C.Palmer pass incomplete short left to C.Henry.

3-7-ATL32 (:26) C.Palmer pass incomplete short right to C.Henry (J.Webster) [K.Brooking].

4-7-ATL32 (:20) S.Graham 51 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-B.St. Louis, Holder-K.Larson.

1 run, 10 passes, FG. Hard to argue with any of the calls aside from the 2-7 on the Atlanta 32.

5 runs, 14 passes, 10 points. Unbalanced? Yeah, but hard to argue with the results.

[cover2]

Carson took a lot of lumps yesterday. The O-line needs to step up. They are not doing the job protecting him. The one play which was a reflection of the day was Carson getting sacked on the last play of the game.

They rushed three lineman and we can't stop them, horsesh*t. He takes another lick....not nescessary!

I don't want to see Carson get hurt....he took some shots Sunday...

Their tight end ate us up as did their Vick and their Offense. Our defense let us down. We got nothing from them

It was the worst game for the secondary since.....

Where was Dexter Jackson?

Twenty seven points and the Offense didn't have its A game...should be enough!

The best play of the defense (the one I liked) was Brooks laying Vick out. He put the wood on him and I liked it when his cleets bumped his helmet when he walked over him. I don't remember Vick running too much after that, but he didn't have to. He let his arm do the talking. The Falcons played a great game and we did not!

[Kazkal]

I like how rudi made hobson say it

[membengal]

For all of you bitching about the lack of a run game, I ask you again to look at Hoosier's fine recap of the last three quarters. First, 17 points in the first half, and skewed toward the pass because of the drive for three under two minutes, so I would assume no one is bitching about the run/pass balance in the first half. 17 points is damn successful...

Now, look at the drive to start the third quarter, Rudi got the ball, drive stalled. Second drive, Rudi got the ball, got three points (I might mention, though, that the crucial "bad play" on that drive was Rudi getting stuffed for a two yard loss on 2nd and 4 when they were inside the 10. Not getting a touchdown on that drive was flat out devastating).

The the next drive, when they are down 6, the ill-fated reverse to TJ. After the seven yard loss, if they had run it twice more, we all would have melted down.

Then they were down 9 as hoosier points out. And, down 9 in the fourth, I don't know about you guys, but I wasn't begging Brat for line plunges.

So, really, where was the lack of commitment to the run? If anything, commitment to the run f**ked them on the drive in the third quarter when they only got three points. So much of this is, no offense, knee-jerk bitching after the loss.

The real problem? Vick got nuclear hot. The Bengals didn't cover well enough when they had to. They gave up 29 points and couldn't get off the field and give their very hot offense one more chance to win it. That's it.

The criticism of the lack of a run game here is misplaced...

[derekshank]

Yep... usually when you break down how a game actually goes given the different play-calling due to in-game situations, the arguments for why we were so unbalanced go out the window.

By the way... balance doesn't always win games. The Jets were very balanced throwing the ball 28 times and rushing it 27 times in a loss to Cleveland.

Meanwhile the Patroits win a game throwing 43 times and running 15 times, and the Colts win a huge game throwing 39 times and running 21 times.

I understand the frustration... I really do. We lost, so it's easy to look at the stat sheet and say "We didn't run enough." But our offense was effective when it was on the field... it just wasn't on the field enough, and that was Vick's fault, not because we didn't run enough. We didn't get enough possessions... that was the problem.

[cincy9275]

all i now is that this season in our loses rudi has carries of 17 14 12 . in our wins he has carries of 28 26 19 26 . then add that we were 9-0 last season when rudi carries it 20+ times . that is a fact that can not be ignored . we are at our best when we run the ball. the whole team plays better when we run the ball. brat and palmer need to keep this in mind. and now that we have a healthy talented and deep backfield i would like to see it used more.

[agreen_112]

I am amazed at how many people can't see this, especially F-ing Bratkowski

In the 2005 season when Rudi got 20 or more carries, the Bengals were 9 - 0

When he got less than 20, the Bengals were 2 - 6

So far this season, when Rudi gets 20 or more carries the Bengals are 3 - 0.

When he gets less than 20 carries rhe Bengals are 1 - 3.

Do the math guys, Bratkowski is an idiot who has no clue how important the run game is in the NFL

Please Marv, find an OC who knows the importance of the run.

That's crazy. I was wondering about this last night. I just can't believe Rudi on got 14 carries against Atlanta. REDICULOUS!

[derekshank]

all i now is that this season in our loses rudi has carries of 17 14 12 . in our wins he has carries of 28 26 19 26 . then add that we were 9-0 last season when rudi carries it 20+ times . that is a fact that can not be ignored . we are at our best when we run the ball. the whole team plays better when we run the ball. brat and palmer need to keep this in mind. and now that we have a healthy talented and deep backfield i would like to see it used more.

That's because it is easier to run the ball when you have a 2 score lead (which is usually the case when Rudi is running 20+ times). When you are tied, or losing the game, there is a need to move the ball down the field more aggressively... and that calls for the pass. When you have an elite QB... you throw the ball.

Look at the games where we have run the ball more this season.

KC: We had a multiple score lead for most of the game and it was raining. You're not going to throw the ball a lot in that situation.

Cleveland: No Housh... and Rudi owns Cleveland. We always run well on them, and again, we had a multiple score lead (mostly thanks to an impressive passing game in the 1st half that put us up 17-3).

We've run the ball pretty sparingly ever since, because we've been involved in close games or games where we are trailing. You go to what gets you points when you need them. When you already have them... that is when you play the clock.

Peyton Manning throws the ball 35 times a game. McNabb throws it 34.6 times a game. Brady and Palmer both throw 33.1 times a game. You put the ball in the hands of your franchise player. This is why Atlanta and San Diego run the ball more times than anybody else too. I want the ball in Palmer's hands when we need points, because despite his "down year" he's thrown 11 TD's to only 4 INT's and only Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Mark Bulger can boast better production.

Sure there are complaints when we lose... but do you really want to keep going to a mostly ineffective running when you're down 2 scores? If you run Rudi 20+ times when you aren't getting the ball very often, and are down by 9 points, you will quickly see the stats about us winning when Rudi runs the ball 20+ times decline.

I understand the complaints... but the logic isn't really there. We win and lose on the arm of Carson Palmer, not the legs of Rudi Johnson... and I like it that way.

[membengal]

+1 on derek's rock solid post.

Well done.

[Spain]

Were banged up , and we need to get healthy.

[jjakq27]

He didn't abandon the run last week. Vick and the Atlanta offense were walking up and down the field at will, and Brat felt the best way to keep pace was through the air.

we also won last week . a good running game would have keep vick and company on the sideline watching rudi run trough there defense .

I agree 100%. The defense can't be on the field every 4 to 5 minutes and expect to stop anybody in the fourth quarter. Even if you run three straight dive plays for no gain and then punt, you have given your defense a break and may have disrupted any momuntum the other team may have on offense. It may not be available every game but it has to be a point of emphasis and part of their basic philosophy. With the success of the teams in Pittsburgh and Baltimore while he was there, it just surprises me that Marvin hasn't stepped in and directed Brat to pound the ball more.

[membengal]

jjak, serious question:

Looking back at the 2nd through 4th quarters, just where did they NOT pound the ball where they should have? After it was 2nd and 17, you wanted two more runs? After they were down nine and had only 11 minutes to try and make it up, you wanted that on the ground? How would that have made any sense?

I really think this particular criticism makes beyond no sense..

[Tasher]

jjak, serious question:

Looking back at the 2nd through 4th quarters, just where did they NOT pound the ball where they should have? After it was 2nd and 17, you wanted two more runs? After they were down nine and had only 11 minutes to try and make it up, you wanted that on the ground? How would that have made any sense?

I really think this particular criticism makes beyond no sense..

I agree! All the criticism of Brat, the play calling and run vs pass is way off base.

I looked at the gamebook and the play by play from start to finish.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20061029_ATL@CIN

The ONLY place where any 2nd guessing is even close to the mark is the 1st play of the 3rd qtr.

Deep throw to CJ.

We were up 17-14 and if we have success running the ball, then the game may come out differently at this point. But maybe not. If Carson and CJ hit on that play, it is completely brilliant and we are singing praises for gutsy play calling when ATL should be expecting the run.

So...

Bottom line is too many DROPPED passes, poor execution, poor execution on defense and lack of players stepping up and making the big play: O'Neal should have intercepted the dump pass to the FB that scored the TD and taken it in for 6; KK should have made the tackle or broken up the TD pass to Crumpler near the goal line; The 3rd and 16 pass to Crumpler never should have been allowed to be completed or even thrown.

There it is. Bengals are learning that EVERY PLAY in this kind of environment and against this level of competition is CRITICAL. EVERY player has to ratchet it up a notch and play better and at a higher level. Period.

[cincy9275]

all i now is that this season in our loses rudi has carries of 17 14 12 . in our wins he has carries of 28 26 19 26 . then add that we were 9-0 last season when rudi carries it 20+ times . that is a fact that can not be ignored . we are at our best when we run the ball. the whole team plays better when we run the ball. brat and palmer need to keep this in mind. and now that we have a healthy talented and deep backfield i would like to see it used more.

That's because it is easier to run the ball when you have a 2 score lead (which is usually the case when Rudi is running 20+ times). When you are tied, or losing the game, there is a need to move the ball down the field more aggressively... and that calls for the pass. When you have an elite QB... you throw the ball.

Look at the games where we have run the ball more this season.

KC: We had a multiple score lead for most of the game and it was raining. You're not going to throw the ball a lot in that situation.

Cleveland: No Housh... and Rudi owns Cleveland. We always run well on them, and again, we had a multiple score lead (mostly thanks to an impressive passing game in the 1st half that put us up 17-3).

We've run the ball pretty sparingly ever since, because we've been involved in close games or games where we are trailing. You go to what gets you points when you need them. When you already have them... that is when you play the clock.

Peyton Manning throws the ball 35 times a game. McNabb throws it 34.6 times a game. Brady and Palmer both throw 33.1 times a game. You put the ball in the hands of your franchise player. This is why Atlanta and San Diego run the ball more times than anybody else too. I want the ball in Palmer's hands when we need points, because despite his "down year" he's thrown 11 TD's to only 4 INT's and only Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Mark Bulger can boast better production.

Sure there are complaints when we lose... but do you really want to keep going to a mostly ineffective running when you're down 2 scores? If you run Rudi 20+ times when you aren't getting the ball very often, and are down by 9 points, you will quickly see the stats about us winning when Rudi runs the ball 20+ times decline.

I understand the complaints... but the logic isn't really there. We win and lose on the arm of Carson Palmer, not the legs of Rudi Johnson... and I like it that way.

you don't get down bye 9 if you establish the run. not a play here and a play there and say it's ineffective . it's only effective if you do time and time and time again. then when guys like wille and rudi start questioning why we are not running then it's a problem.

as for palmer he is not playing on the same level as last year and yea he has decent stats , but he is not making the same game saving plays this season . overthrowing guys missing on out routes he is just not the same this season. whatever the reason for his drop in play. so why not give the guy some help until he gets back to 100% . i mean hell just a balanced attack would make me happy .

[derekshank]

you don't get down bye 9 if you establish the run. not a play here and a play there and say it's ineffective . it's only effective if you do time and time and time again.

That's simply not true. You have to look no further than the loss we had to Pittburgh last year as proof. We ran the ball incredibly well in the to the tune of 11 rushes for 62 yards early in that game... and yet, without abandoning the run, we were down 17-6. Simply establishing the run means jack if the rest of your game isn't there. And there are plenty of teams out there that win games soley on the pass with weak running games.

We don't have a weak running game... so we have the luxury of choosing how we want to proceed. And by the way... I've yet to hear you explain at what point we should have run the ball when we passed instead this week. There are plenty of people who have posted the play by play on this subject... but I haven't heard any good arguments that would warrant continued complaining.

as for palmer he is not playing on the same level as last year and yea he has decent stats , but he is not making the same game saving plays this season . overthrowing guys missing on out routes he is just not the same this season. whatever the reason for his drop in play. so why not give the guy some help until he gets back to 100% . i mean hell just a balanced attack would make me happy.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on the performance of Palmer. We're watching the same games, but coming to different conclusions. I have all of last season on DVD, and from time to time go back and watch the games. The only difference I can see in Palmer is how much time he has to throw... that, and we were winning. I guess that makes all the difference in the world to the average fan. But if you go back and look, the close wins against Houston and Green Bay are actually less impressive than the loss to Atlanta this week.

He's the same guy. I don't feel like I can put these losses on him, because he's playing at the same consistent high level that he did last year. We're just playing against better competition this year, aren't getting as many turnovers as a result, and a mistakes here and there kills us. We just have to perfect our game so we win these close ones. But for Carson's part, he looks like the same guy to me.

[HoosierCat]

Regarding Palmer, I will say this: no, he is not the Carson Palmer of 2005.

That said, I think you will find that very few QBs in the history of the NFL that were the Carson Palmer of 2005.

I think it was Hair who, at some point in the not-too-distant past, referred to the '05 Palmer as "cartoonish." And yeah, that about sums it up. Specifically (for you Dragonball fans out there) last year Palmer was the NFL equivalent of a Super Sayien 3. 68% completion rate, 3,800+ yards, 32 TDs vs. 12 picks. He had 43 20+ yard passes, 9 40+ yard passes, and a season total QB rating over 101.

That's. F*cking. Ridiculous. It might never happen again. That might be his career year.

Rest of the team needs to step up. Carson, despite the knee, despite the mental stuff, despite the o-line, despite the pounding, is still kicking a$$. Anyone notice he threw 0 picks in the whole month of October?

[Tasher]

derek, everyone wants to say that Palmer is not playing at the same level because through 6 or 8 games he had complete something like 75% of his passes and had a passer rating for the SEASON in the stratosphere.

So NOW, that he is completing a PEDESTRIAN 62.9% with a passer rating of 93.4 he totaly sucks!

Nothing less than 80% I say, or we string him up by his good knee side toenails! Then run him out of town on a rail tarred and feathered!

We can then draft Quinn or Troy Smith and let him develop behind Wright or Johnson for a year, and maybe hand the ball to McNeal after that year in spite of everything!

(Doing the hands-on-face-after-shave-look-from-Home-Alone) "We are 4-3, the sky is falling, the sky is falling! The Bengals have reverted to their pre-Marvin bungling! Hid ethe women and children that we just unlocked from the broom closet after LAST years SECOND Pittsburgh game!

I have resigned myself to the "No Hope for BengalDom Fans" category. But it sure makes for fun posting!

[Stripes]

Not sure anyone actually said all that..... Shrug.

[Tasher]

Not sure anyone actually said all that..... Shrug.

What? Me, exagerate? Moi?

[HairOnFire]

I think it was Hair who, at some point in the not-too-distant past, referred to the '05 Palmer as "cartoonish." And yeah, that about sums it up. Specifically (for you Dragonball fans out there) last year Palmer was the NFL equivalent of a Super Sayien 3. 68% completion rate, 3,800+ yards, 32 TDs vs. 12 picks. He had 43 20+ yard passes, 9 40+ yard passes, and a season total QB rating over 101.

That's. F*cking. Ridiculous. It might never happen again. That might be his career year.

Rest of the team needs to step up. Carson, despite the knee, despite the mental stuff, despite the o-line, despite the pounding, is still kicking a$$. Anyone notice he threw 0 picks in the whole month of October?

Carson Palmer with Kung Fu grip?

For all of the talk about how Palmer is completely recovered from his injury, how it isn't an issue anymore, how he'd love it if people stopped reminding him of the ding....there have been a few statements made over the last couple of weeks that explain why Palmer is merely playing at a mortal level this season. Happily, none of those statements cast doubt on Palmers mental ability to eventually return to form.

Instead, the remarks that actually explain why Palmer struggles from time to time have to do with him still having some pain and trouble when taking his first step into his backpedal, being only 90% where he was in terms of overall technique, being only 85-90% back in terms of timing, and being slightly behind in terms of arm strength due to the time demanded by his lower body rehab.

But most importantly, I see a QB who is unable to play at previous cartoon-like levels due to the poor O-line play he's been surrounded by. In fact, knowing how much each of us worried about Palmer's health coming into this season it's amazing that he's still standing tall after taking weekly beatings.

All things considered, I'd say there's nothing wrong with Palmer that a little time won't cure. We'll see the cartoon QB again.