O-Line Problems

[BengalChamps]

This topic has been talked about only briefly in other threads. IMO it needs a life of its own.

I know that sacks have gone up and O production has gone down since Richie's departure but i think its because we have been getting our ass's whipped up front. I havent seen a whole lot of free runners coming at CP totally unblocked. If unblocked guys were getting there, you would think that it was a mental problem or confusion caused by guys not used to playing next to each other.

Most of the time it seems that we are getting bull-rushed or out-quicked by the D. The pocket is just collapsing into CP's face before he can look for a 2nd or 3rd option.

This is what worries me about the Panther game. No tricks from them. Just alot of one on one battles.

I think our guys are smart enough but not sure they are talented enough.

Willie - Too old?

Bobbie - Too slow?

Guycheck - No butt/too small?

Steiny - maybe our most complete lineman now that Levi is out

Whitworth - Too slow?

What about Koostra? He has filled in very well in the past.

THIS SEASON DIES A SLOW, AGONIZING DEATH UNLESS THE OLINE STARTS GETTING PHYSICAL AND WHIPPING PEOPLE ONE ON ONE!

[Stripes]

The pressure seems to be coming primarily from the middle, where Ghiaciuc would obviously be the goat. I imagine his problem is more with calling the right plays for the line than it is with his physical presence. I just don't think he'd be dominated so badly week in and week out if it were a physical issue.

[derekshank]

I think it's a mental issue. And it's not even so much the guys being confused as much as not playing together as a unit. That is understandable with all the shifting that's been going on.

The guys are used to Braham, and then Ghiaciuc comes in, Levi goes down, and Steiny moves to LT, Whitworth comes in at G. They move Steiny to Center, Levi goes down again, Whitworth moves to LT, Steiny goes back to G, Ghiaciuc comes back in at center. There has been no consistency. It's a mess.

There are lots of examples of O-Lines being incredibly physical... but just sucking it up because they don't play together. Arizona is the most obvious example. None of those guys are getting beat as individuals, but they have one of the worst run blocking lines in the league.

If the communication improves, and they learn to play together, the problem goes away. If they have to keep moving around like they have been, the confusion will stick around, and it will be a year long problem.

[Kazkal]

Well Willie gets beat now and then it happens hes never been fast so being too slow isen't a problem...Whitworth is fine the dudes gonna be a stud......Levi has been playing good even injured..if he was healthy all that much better...

Problem is preasure thats coming from the middle...MLBs and DT's seem be getting just as much preasure then speed rushers on the outside...tampas 2 sacks were from a DT....Hell casey was getting preasure when we played vs the steelers =/

[GapControl]

What about all the talk that the Benglals Oline backups would be starters on other teams? I heard Lapham and the Angry guys say it before... I've heard some people on this board mention it, too. It looks like this theory was simply a theory, huh?

I don't understand where Stacy Andrews is in all of this shufflling? Was he lost to injury early in the year and I forgot it? How about pulling Wilkerson up off the PS now that Jones is injured? I bet he can plug in at G and allow Steinbach to stay in at C. Just some thoughts....

[Kazkal]

well starters on teams like the browns....

[JaxonFord87]

I wouldn't mind to see Wilkerson play. He needs to be given the chance to play to see if he can earn a startign job.

[Bungle in the Jungle]

I wouldn't mind to see Wilkerson play. He needs to be given the chance to play to see if he can earn a startign job.

I agree and it may come true now due to Richie's gay lover coming out and violating HIPAA to let us know that they'll be watching the game together for the rest of the season through their spaces between their toes.

[derekshank]

Remember when a lot of people mad as hell about the Whitworth pick when Leonard Pope was available at TE? Just think where we'd be right now without Whitworth. I'm so happy that we have him to step in for Levi without a significant drop-off.

For some reason, I expect the O-Line to play significantly better this week. Don't ask me for a reason... I just do. I think the poor pass-blocking was due to confusing 3-4 LB blitzes with an inexperienced Center. Whitworth won't be a liability on the outside... and Ghiuciac had a much better game against Tampa. There was only 1 sack allowed while he was in the game (only 2 total), and it came from the DE position.

There is still the problem with run-blocking... but I think it gets fixed. Last year against Jacksonville, Ghiaciuc started against possibly the best DT duo in the league in Stroud and Henderson. I would also say that the Jaguars LB's are significantly better than Carolinas. Yet... we rushed for 132 at more than 5 yards/carry. And lest you think that the stats were thrown off by one huge run... we didn't have a run in the gain for more than 14 yards. Just a very consistent running game caused by good blocking. I can't believe these guys have just forgotten how to run block.

I believe we'll see the offense get fixed this week. I can't say why... I just do. When Rudi gets going, the passing game will open up. The Cincy Offense breaks out of it's funk this week. Believe it!

[Ox]

I agree and it may come true now due to Richie's gay lover coming out and violating HIPAA to let us know that they'll be watching the game together for the rest of the season through their spaces between their toes.

Good to see someone's been watching the gay porn before posting. Try to stay on topic, Sally.

[HairOnFire]

In my opinion the greatest problem is related to too much shifting of positions and too little stability. That said, I just watched a short piece on the NFLN realted to the Booger McFarland trade and one of the highlites they showed was Booger simply tossing Steinbach to the side prior to stuffing a running play.

Versatility is a great thing under the right circumstances, but in this years example it simply means that Steinbach is getting his ass whipped at three different positions.

[BengalPimp]

I don't understand where Stacy Andrews is in all of this shufflling? Was he lost to injury early in the year and I forgot it? How about pulling Wilkerson up off the PS now that Jones is injured? I bet he can plug in at G and allow Steinbach to stay in at C. Just some thoughts....

Stacy Andrews is still a project, and the way the line is playing TRUST ME you dont want him out there, he's

not ready yet for anything more than spot duty.

I can only assume that the reason Wilkerson is still on the practice squad, is that his knee still isnt strong enough, but they at least want him to learn, rather than put him on an injured or PUP list. Watching Wilkerson in college on more than a few occasions before his injury, I can Honestly say that he had good technical skills, had power, and seemed to be in control, which is what you want from your Center. Remember that going into his final season, he was the #1 rated Center in the country. I was actually more excited when they signed him as a college free-agent than drafting Ghiaciuc in the 4th round. If he's healthy, and is at the same level he was in college, there is NO WAY Ghiaciuc plays....so his knee cant be right.

[HoosierCat]

In my opinion the greatest problem is related to too much shifting of positions and too little stability.

Yup. I said before the bye I didn't want to see them move people around on the o-line, but as per usual the Bengals don't listen to me (probably a good thing generally speaking). As for the guy I've pimped, Wilkerson, well you have to woder what it says that they tried to replace Bluto with Steinbach...and what it says that they haven't brought up Wilk.

Center is a mess right now...and looks to be a mess for while, unfortunately.

[Jet23]

Nearly every NFL team has to shuffle the OL at one time or another during the season. They can get it done, while the Bengals can not. Look no further than the worst position coach in the NFL. I'm still waiting for someone to explain Paul Alexander to me.

However, I agree with DS. I do not think Whitworth will be a significant drop off from Jones, especially since Jones has been playing banged up. I also believe Guy-check has been making subtle improvements.

[Tasher]

Nearly every NFL team has to shuffle the OL at one time or another during the season. They can get it done, while the Bengals can not. Look no further than the worst position coach in the NFL. I'm still waiting for someone to explain Paul Alexander to me.

However, I agree with DS. I do not think Whitworth will be a significant drop off from Jones, especially since Jones has been playing banged up. I also believe Guy-check has been making subtle improvements.

It is Alexander's 13th season as the O-Line coach. In 9 of those years we had a 1000 yard back (or nearly, since Corey and Rudi split time one year due to injury (Rudi had 957 yds)) in addition to 1000 yard receiver (in only 3 of those 13 years did we fail to have 1000 yd receiver).

So I am thinking that Paul is one of the best O-Line coaches in the NFL.

Minny could not fix its problems last year without Birk, Cleveland is having problems without their center (pick one) and the list goes on and on.

[Jet23]

Nearly every NFL team has to shuffle the OL at one time or another during the season. They can get it done, while the Bengals can not. Look no further than the worst position coach in the NFL. I'm still waiting for someone to explain Paul Alexander to me.

However, I agree with DS. I do not think Whitworth will be a significant drop off from Jones, especially since Jones has been playing banged up. I also believe Guy-check has been making subtle improvements.

It is Alexander's 13th season as the O-Line coach. In 9 of those years we had a 1000 yard back (or nearly, since Corey and Rudi split time one year due to injury (Rudi had 957 yds)) in addition to 1000 yard receiver (in only 3 of those 13 years did we fail to have 1000 yd receiver).

So I am thinking that Paul is one of the best O-Line coaches in the NFL.

Minny could not fix its problems last year without Birk, Cleveland is having problems without their center (pick one) and the list goes on and on.

I think any OL coach would love to have two top 10 picks and another 1st rounder that slipped into the second round due to a run on cornerbacks. Name me 1 Paul Alexander success story. I'm talking about a 2nd day pick that he developed into a solid NFL player. That would be nobody. If they don't pay a FA or burn a first round pick, they aren't going to make it on Cincinnati's line. By way of comparison, look what his predecessor did. Jim McNally made a living developing late rounders such as Montoya (7), Reimers (8), Wilson (4), Walter (7), Kozerski (9)...

Explain to me how a line goes from supposedly the best in the NFL, to possibly the worst, with the only change being the least paid lineman? You or I could have coached the flipping line last year.

[Tasher]

I think any OL coach would love to have two top 10 picks and another 1st rounder that slipped into the second round due to a run on cornerbacks. Name me 1 Paul Alexander success story. I'm talking about a 2nd day pick that he developed into a solid NFL player. That would be nobody. If they don't pay a FA or burn a first round pick, they aren't going to make it on Cincinnati's line. By way of comparison, look what his predecessor did. Jim McNally made a living developing late rounders such as Montoya (7), Reimers (8), Wilson (4), Walter (7), Kozerski (9)...

Explain to me how a line goes from supposedly the best in the NFL, to possibly the worst, with the only change being the least paid lineman? You or I could have coached the flipping line last year.

Cin draft picks on OL since 93:

93 – no OL

94 – 5th rd Pollard 6th Reynolds

95 – 3rd Tuten 6th Grigson

96 –1st Anderson, 3rd Blackman 7th Rod Jones

97 – 3rd Payne

98 – 3rd Goff

99 – 7th Coats

00 – no OL

01 – 5th Leyva

02 – 1st Jones

03 – 2nd Steiny 7th Kooistra

04 – 4th Andrews

05 – 4th Ghiaciuc 5th Kieft

06 – 2nd Whitworth

1. Rod Jones Bengals did not resign and Rams signed as FA; 2. Goff (oh, not 2nd day, sorry) now a starter for SD;

Cincy's best players left in FA between 93 and 03, so any of these folks developed (the two I named above) LEFT. He has done a pretty good job with Kooistra (4th year) as a 7th rounder and the others who are being developed to replace entrenched veteran starters. You have to admit that the draft philosophy changed radically after Marvin came in and the overall organizational philosphy. If you look around the league, I think you will find that the majority of OL starters are 5+ year vets by the time they are starting. Very few rookies start on the OL, and if they are I will show you a team that can't run the ball or keep the QB upright.

BTW 2 of our OL out of 9 on the roster are FA acquisitions.

Our line is certainly not the worst, and we have 2 starters out of place this week and 3 out of place last week.

With 40% to 60% of your original starting O Line missing there are going to be some problems that show up in consistency.

My example was Birk for Minny (only a single player, 20% of the line) that did that line in. We are still above .500 whereas Minny was Oh and what last year?

Given the amount of shuffling going on, I'd say we are doing pretty well, considering that the same line has not started 2 weeks in a row. That is pretty GOOD coaching in my book.

If we were having the problems we are having now with the same ProBowl line intact from last year, THEN I would say that there is a coaching problem.

[bengalboomer7]

I think the problems lie BOTH physically and mentally. Guys are flat out getting beat or pushed back at the snap of the ball and i believe only some of thisis communication problems. Levi was playing banged up to begin with and Steiny's been switched around so many times he probably can't tell you where he s**t last.

No solution at center is obviously at the root of all our problems(and after having to sign a nobody during the season last year we should have been more prepared), but guys aren't performing to the level of last year. Hell, the team doesn't look to have the same emotion as last year, the same fire even. They've came out flat EVERY game this year, even the games we won

[Jet23]

I think any OL coach would love to have two top 10 picks and another 1st rounder that slipped into the second round due to a run on cornerbacks. Name me 1 Paul Alexander success story. I'm talking about a 2nd day pick that he developed into a solid NFL player. That would be nobody. If they don't pay a FA or burn a first round pick, they aren't going to make it on Cincinnati's line. By way of comparison, look what his predecessor did. Jim McNally made a living developing late rounders such as Montoya (7), Reimers (8), Wilson (4), Walter (7), Kozerski (9)...

Explain to me how a line goes from supposedly the best in the NFL, to possibly the worst, with the only change being the least paid lineman? You or I could have coached the flipping line last year.

Cin draft picks on OL since 93:

93 – no OL

94 – 5th rd Pollard 6th Reynolds

95 – 3rd Tuten 6th Grigson

96 –1st Anderson, 3rd Blackman 7th Rod Jones

97 – 3rd Payne

98 – 3rd Goff

99 – 7th Coats

00 – no OL

01 – 5th Leyva

02 – 1st Jones

03 – 2nd Steiny 7th Kooistra

04 – 4th Andrews

05 – 4th Ghiaciuc 5th Kieft

06 – 2nd Whitworth

1. Rod Jones Bengals did not resign and Rams signed as FA; 2. Goff (oh, not 2nd day, sorry) now a starter for SD;

Cincy's best players left in FA between 93 and 03, so any of these folks developed (the two I named above) LEFT. He has done a pretty good job with Kooistra (4th year) as a 7th rounder and the others who are being developed to replace entrenched veteran starters. You have to admit that the draft philosophy changed radically after Marvin came in and the overall organizational philosphy. If you look around the league, I think you will find that the majority of OL starters are 5+ year vets by the time they are starting. Very few rookies start on the OL, and if they are I will show you a team that can't run the ball or keep the QB upright.

BTW 2 of our OL out of 9 on the roster are FA acquisitions.

Our line is certainly not the worst, and we have 2 starters out of place this week and 3 out of place last week.

With 40% to 60% of your original starting O Line missing there are going to be some problems that show up in consistency.

My example was Birk for Minny (only a single player, 20% of the line) that did that line in. We are still above .500 whereas Minny was Oh and what last year?

Given the amount of shuffling going on, I'd say we are doing pretty well, considering that the same line has not started 2 weeks in a row. That is pretty GOOD coaching in my book.

If we were having the problems we are having now with the same ProBowl line intact from last year, THEN I would say that there is a coaching problem.

There you have it. Only one player selected later than the 2nd round is even a marginal NFL Player. And Goff got the heck out of dodge. Don't forget, the position coaches have a lot of input as far as draft choices. I'm sorry but dude has no clue!

[Tasher]

There you have it. Only one player selected later than the 2nd round is even a marginal NFL Player. And Goff got the heck out of dodge. Don't forget, the position coaches have a lot of input as far as draft choices. I'm sorry but dude has no clue!

[Jet23]

There you have it. Only one player selected later than the 2nd round is even a marginal NFL Player. And Goff got the heck out of dodge. Don't forget, the position coaches have a lot of input as far as draft choices. I'm sorry but dude has no clue!

Since your last name is obviously Alexander, I apologize for being to rough on the chap. He probably is one of the best coaches ever. Lombardi, Halas, Landry, Brown, Alexander. Looks good to me.

[BengalChamps]

No solution at center is obviously at the root of all our problems(and after having to sign a nobody during the season last year we should have been more prepared),

I was comfortable in this past offseason with not signing anyone, because we had Guychick and Wilk. When Wilk got cut at the end of camp and the Clowns did not sign him, that should have been a tip off that he doesnt have it anymore. And Guychick seemed ok last year when subbing during the Jax game.

This line knows who to block, but they're just not getting it done physically.