Offensive Cordinator???? Bratkowski

[derekshank]

I hated the o-gameplan and the decision not to throw for a 1st down - but you can see how difficult everyone's job becomes when your 0-line doesn't do anything.

This is the essence of my frustration with Brat. Levi being gimpy, Braham, Tab, Chris Perry, and Henry being out were not surprises. The game plan needed to reflect their absence and emphasize things the available players do well. As importantly, the second half adjustments to TB's defensive scheme and the COncy O's performance in the first half were non-existent. The game plan and the halftime adjustments are Brat's responsibility!

Can he control the players he has available? NO

Can he game plan and adjust to changing conditions? NO, but he should be able to better than he does!

I just still don't see it. The running game wasn't there, and Carson and Chad weren't on the same page. How many available weapons are left?

Housh caught 10 freaking passes... and even our non-pass catching TE caught a 27 yarder. Brat pretty much used every weapon available in every way he could. When you can't get Rudi going, and Chad is out of sync with Carson... what is the solution?

Under the cirucumstances, I thought he called a pretty decent game. In the beginning of the first half, we started to get our running game going... and we got a FG out of it. Tampa adjusted, and it wan't there anymore, so we were forced to punt. The very next posesseion Palmer completed his 50 yarder to Chad. Seems like pretty decent timing on the playcalling if you ask me.

Sure... it would have been nice to get a TD rather than a FG on one of those drives... but we kept getting in 3rd and longs because of a lack of running game, and incomplete passes. That can't be put on Brat. He adjusted as well as possible. The offense just stunk... not the playcalling.

[bengalskyspy]

Brat's favorite call on 3rd and long is a draw play... which never, ever works. The shovel pass is just another version of that... which never, ever works. I wish someone would run some stats on the success/failure of those plays. I'd love for Brat to prove that he is not just a dumbas#. I can't justify firing the guy given the success of this offense, but I surely do wish he would get a new playbook for 3rd and long.

[johnstownsteel]

I hear Jim Fassel and the Ravens are parting ways later today. Would he be any better?

Really though, with all those injuries and suspensions what do you expect? I think Brats a pretty good coach and by the end of the year I suspect ya'll will be showering him with praises again.

[BengalByTheBay]

I'm wondering if we have suffered a loss in the past 3 years that I haven't seen the obligatory "Fire Brat" thread the next day. Am I upset at the past two games, yeah. Probably as much as anybody here. But I think the knee-jerk reaction of looking for people to blame and fire is totally bogus. There are a lot of things to work on and if you're overlooking execution of the offensive game plan as being as least partly to blame, you're missing the forest. Brat has tendencies like any other offensive coach. Yes, he does go with the draw on 3rd & long a lot -- that's true. It's a low risk play that, in my recollection, was also a great favorite of Sam Wyche. We've been doing that for a trillion years -- it's almost more of a Bengal tendency than a Brat tendency at this point. The bottom line is (as several of you seem to admit), you love him when his plays are working and you hate him when they're not working. You can't fire him this week and hire him back right before the next Raven game. You roll with who got you here and he's been doing an above average job for several years. If he were to be fired, you could essentially scrap next season as we go into transition mode to a new coordinator. How good does that sound to anybody? We're better with him than without him, but we'll still lose some games -- that's just the way it is.

[derekshank]

I'm wondering why everyone agrees that he goes with the draw play too much on 3rd and long? The only times I've seen him do it makes complete sense. We had 3rd and 8 or longer 8 times on Sunday, and only 2 of them were what could be considered draws (both shovel passes to Watson). There was also a 3rd and 20 where there was a short pass to Chatman that didn't gain much, so maybe that is part of the argument in this game. But considering the field position, it made sense.

In all 3 of these circumstances the uninformed football fan will see these plays as getting 6 or 7 meaningless yards, and conclude that it was a wasted play since the drive wasn't extended. It's just not true though. When it's 3rd and long, the defense is sold out defending the pass, so incompletions are more common than 3rd down conversions. Those stats are undeniable. At least the draw play, or shovel pass gets you a few yards to help with the field position battle.

In the 3 situations I pointed out from Sunday's game, we were deep in our own territory (Inside our own 30). An interception in this part of the field puts your defense in a terrible situation. Even without an interception, an incomplete pass gains no yards. Deep in your own territory, anything that can help with the field position battle is a good thing. Sure, 6 or 7 yards don't get you the first down... but they do help out the defense, and gives them a better shot at keeping the other team outside of FG range.

I understand the frustration... I really do. But these calls are not uncommon in good football strategy. They are less aggressive than most fans want to see their team be... but they are still smart. Kind of like when you hear fans boo when they punt on 4th and short. Sure, it's not very aggressive, and pretty unpopular among all fanbases, but failing to convert really hurts the team.

This is the problem with being the Offensive Coordinator. When he's conservative and we lose, fans scream bloody murder making comparisons to "Marty-ball. However, if he's too aggressive, fans scream just as loudly that he doesn't know how to drain the clock and keep the lead.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I posted in the game thread immediately after the last offensive possession, "that's how you lose games." So no hindsight 20/20 there for me - that last series was absolutely ridiculous - who depends on "this" defense to stop anybody for 4 quarters? I don't care who it is - they can't stop anybody that long. You let your offense win games here, not the putrid defense.

I blame Marvin for that just as much as Brat, Marvin overrules calls whenever he wants to. I have a feeling he was responsible for that end-game management, which, frankly, was horrific.

I become less enamored of Marvin every day.

As you can see - without Palmer and that 0-line - his team can't even beat 0-4 crap teams.

If they turn it around, it'll have everything to do with protecting Palmer, and Palmer making plays and leading them down the field again consistently.

Because that garbage freakin defense the Bengals' have isn't capable of winning games for them at all. Been that way for 4 years now. Tired of it. Make some f$$@@! changes for God's sakes...

[derekshank]

Because that garbage freakin defense the Bengals' have isn't capable of winning games for them at all. Been that way for 4 years now. Tired of it. Make some f$$@@! changes for God's sakes...

I won't argue with most of your points... but I will point out that we had essentially three 3rd string LB's that were forced to play the entire game, a back-up SS, and we held Tampa to 7 points. Yes... 7. We had a sack and a fumble recovery at the end of the game that was inexplicably taken away from us.

This defense is certainly not the strength of this team... but given the circumstances, they played incredibly strong this game. They got the stop you so desperately wanted, but it was taken away from them. Get healthy, and our defense will be much closer to the product you want. Dexter, Simmons, Jeanty, Pollack... that's a lot to lose. Sure, we're not the Bears... but we're better than what we're seeing right now.

I really do expect another year of drafting to make us a much more balanced and complete team. Of course, I thought this last year... and I think if we were healthy, I'd still believe it.

[BengalByTheBay]

I posted in the game thread immediately after the last offensive possession, "that's how you lose games." So no hindsight 20/20 there for me - that last series was absolutely ridiculous - who depends on "this" defense to stop anybody for 4 quarters? I don't care who it is - they can't stop anybody that long. You let your offense win games here, not the putrid defense.

I blame Marvin for that just as much as Brat, Marvin overrules calls whenever he wants to. I have a feeling he was responsible for that end-game management, which, frankly, was horrific.

I become less enamored of Marvin every day.

As you can see - without Palmer and that 0-line - his team can't even beat 0-4 crap teams.

If they turn it around, it'll have everything to do with protecting Palmer, and Palmer making plays and leading them down the field again consistently.

Because that garbage freakin defense the Bengals' have isn't capable of winning games for them at all. Been that way for 4 years now. Tired of it. Make some f$$@@! changes for God's sakes...

Soooo, we should also fire Marvin Lewis? I know you'd say otherwise, but I think this is a matter of trying to find somebody to blame for the loss. It's human nature, sure, but where does it leave you? You can't freak out when the team loses any more than you can make plane reservations for Miami when they were 3-0. The Squeelers won the SB last year after looking like crap through stretches of the season. While I'd like to go 16-0 as well, suffering some losses doesn't mean that it's time to make huge changes that, basically, would doom your season. Plus, as a fan, since there's nothing you really control anyway, I think that firing coaches has that "I'm playing GM" appeal to it. However, unless you think that this team is fundamentally broken, the idea of bailing on the coaching staff at 3-2 is pretty ridiculous. That's what the off-season is for anyway.

[Bungle in the Jungle]

I hear Jim Fassel and the Ravens are parting ways later today. Would he be any better?

Really though, with all those injuries and suspensions what do you expect? I think Brats a pretty good coach and by the end of the year I suspect ya'll will be showering him with praises again.

So what's the deal man?

Are you really a bengals fan or did your doc overprescribe your ritalin?

[MacD BengalFan]

I hear Jim Fassel and the Ravens are parting ways later today. Would he be any better?

Really though, with all those injuries and suspensions what do you expect? I think Brats a pretty good coach and by the end of the year I suspect ya'll will be showering him with praises again.

To answer your first question, no!

But you are probably right that we will be showering him with praise once the Bengals get through the injuries and suspensions.

[richmond_mat]

I become less enamored of Marvin every day.

As you can see - without Palmer and that 0-line - his team can't even beat 0-4 crap teams.

If they turn it around, it'll have everything to do with protecting Palmer, and Palmer making plays and leading them down the field again consistently.

Because that garbage freakin defense the Bengals' have isn't capable of winning games for them at all. Been that way for 4 years now. Tired of it. Make some f$$@@! changes for God's sakes...

Easy there meathead. Coach Lewis is the man. Coach Lewis will lead the team to victory more often than he will to defeat.

As for the defense, How many rookies would you like to start?

A healthy Jacskon makes.......oh yeah this thread's about Brat

I've called Brat a bum for years.

Surprisingly I haven't been as upset this year about him. I guess it's because Palmer's been on his back too much to notice.

[johnstownsteel]

So what's the deal man?

Are you really a bengals fan or did your doc overprescribe your ritalin?

Neither. To be honest, I've visited most other teams boards and have found that Bengal fans are some of the most knowledgeable out there. Just like good football talk. Other than the Steeler board that I visit, I spend most of my time here when on the net.

[derekshank]

Okay, okay. We've had a couple weeks with flat out bad production... but we also had a couple pretty damn good weeks offensively to start the season. Is there reason to panic? I say no... because I'm talking about the 2005 season. This same exact thing happened to our offense last year.

There are certainly some concerns about the O-Line that weren't there much last year because of injuries, but we aren't really looking much different production-wise. Take a look:

- We scored only 16 points on Houston... who were dead last in scoring defense, giving up 27 points a game.

- We lost to Jacksonville, scoring only 20 points.

- We lost to Pittsburgh, scoring only 13 points.

- Our defense won the game against Green Bay, holding them to 14, and getting INT's on 5 out of 6 GB possessions resulting in 14 of the Bengals 21 points.

- Our defense won us the game against Baltimore holding them to 9 points and getting a crucial turnover that gave the Bengals one of only 3 TD's.

The point is... off the top of my head, I can come up with as many bad games we played last year as games we scored more than 30. The only difference is that this year, we aren't healthy, so there's a good reason we aren't playing well.

Does it need to get fixed? Absolutely. We don't have time to screw around, because the schedule is a bear compared to last year's cushy cakewalk. But let's not get into a state of panic just yet. We played a couple terrible games... but last year we got into a groove about mid-season again, and we were putting up points in the 30's with regularity.

Lay off Brat. We'll get it going (hopefully this week), and Brat will be in the discussion at the end of the year for head-coaching jobs again.

[richmond_mat]

Lay off Brat. We'll get it going (hopefully this week), and Brat will be in the discussion at the end of the year for head-coaching jobs again.

when has Bratty ever been interviewed for a head job?

Hw is a bum.

[derekshank]

I know that Detroit showed interest in him last year.

[membengal]

Okay, okay. We've had a couple weeks with flat out bad production... but we also had a couple pretty damn good weeks offensively to start the season. Is there reason to panic? I say no... because I'm talking about the 2005 season. This same exact thing happened to our offense last year.

There are certainly some concerns about the O-Line that weren't there much last year because of injuries, but we aren't really looking much different production-wise. Take a look:

- We scored only 16 points on Houston... who were dead last in scoring defense, giving up 27 points a game.

- We lost to Jacksonville, scoring only 20 points.

- We lost to Pittsburgh, scoring only 13 points.

- Our defense won the game against Green Bay, holding them to 14, and getting INT's on 5 out of 6 GB possessions resulting in 14 of the Bengals 21 points.

- Our defense won us the game against Baltimore holding them to 9 points and getting a crucial turnover that gave the Bengals one of only 3 TD's.

The point is... off the top of my head, I can come up with as many bad games we played last year as games we scored more than 30. The only difference is that this year, we aren't healthy, so there's a good reason we aren't playing well.

Does it need to get fixed? Absolutely. We don't have time to screw around, because the schedule is a bear compared to last year's cushy cakewalk. But let's not get into a state of panic just yet. We played a couple terrible games... but last year we got into a groove about mid-season again, and we were putting up points in the 30's with regularity.

Lay off Brat. We'll get it going (hopefully this week), and Brat will be in the discussion at the end of the year for head-coaching jobs again.

Solid.

[Tasher]

What was he thinking with over 5 minutes left in the game and calling 3 run plays.Deep in our own

territory.We needed to pass to get a couple of 1st downs and the game would have been ours!!!

They were stacking the line waiting on Rudi......**** Him

It seems to me that we were just here bitching about throwing the ball when we had a lead and how horrible the play calling was.

Which way is it?

BTW, the defense had given up a total of SEVEN points in over 45 minutes of playing time. Why was there any reason to think that they would score another 7 in less than 5 minutes?

Did our offense execute the way we have come to expect and score 40 points? No. Is this any reason to attack Brat? No. It is week 7, we are playing a drastically different schedule than last year and the numbers REALLY are not all that different, expecially considering the defenses we have gone against early. (Not to mention that Carson is coming off knee surgery and despite all the injuries.) This offense is just missing by a couple of hairs, things will get sorted out and everything will be just fine, thank you.

Oh and on another note, you don't need to worry about firing Brat, he will be a head coach somewhere after this year anyway.

[derekshank]

What was he thinking with over 5 minutes left in the game and calling 3 run plays.Deep in our own

territory.We needed to pass to get a couple of 1st downs and the game would have been ours!!!

They were stacking the line waiting on Rudi......**** Him

It seems to me that we were just here bitching about throwing the ball when we had a lead and how horrible the play calling was.

Which way is it?

That right there is dead on balls accurate.

Yes... "dead on balls accurate" It's an industry term.

[sexywendy]

I believe the only interview he got was Det. Det doesnt have an NFL team,does it? I believe the best way to go against Carolina is draws and screens, so hopefully Perry will be back for this game.Brat will never be a head coach because he sucks!!! He has for four years.A new off.coordinator would NOT set us back a year,that is an ignorant assesment.Many teams have replaced a coordinator and been fine the next year.We have a veteran corps on offense and I expect they might be able to learn a new offense. I know a lot of people consider themselves football EXPERTS!!!! But get real they have from Feb to sept to learn an offense its not rocket science!!!! We dont have any players from Ohio State so I figure most of our players have actually attended college classes!!!!!

[walzav29]

This offense will look 50 times better as soon as the offensive line gives Palmer time. He needs time for those long plays to develop. If you look at the last drive to set up the missed field goal. Palmer got sacked and the next play Palmer was pressured again and just winged it at the last second to TJ. I think Whitworth is going to handle it.

[derekshank]

I believe the only interview he got was Det. Det doesnt have an NFL team,does it? I believe the best way to go against Carolina is draws and screens, so hopefully Perry will be back for this game.Brat will never be a head coach because he sucks!!! He has for four years.A new off.coordinator would NOT set us back a year,that is an ignorant assesment.Many teams have replaced a coordinator and been fine the next year.We have a veteran corps on offense and I expect they might be able to learn a new offense. I know a lot of people consider themselves football EXPERTS!!!! But get real they have from Feb to sept to learn an offense its not rocket science!!!! We dont have any players from Ohio State so I figure most of our players have actually attended college classes!!!!!

Carson Palmer quote for you buddy.

"Brat is getting thrown under the bus, and it's ridiculous. It's a lot of people talking that don't know football."

[Stripes]

What was he thinking with over 5 minutes left in the game and calling 3 run plays.Deep in our own

territory.We needed to pass to get a couple of 1st downs and the game would have been ours!!!

They were stacking the line waiting on Rudi......**** Him

It seems to me that we were just here bitching about throwing the ball when we had a lead and how horrible the play calling was.

Which way is it?

That right there is dead on balls accurate.

Yes... "dead on balls accurate" It's an industry term.

Also a My Cousin Vinny term.

I don't think it's as simple as that. Against the Steelers, the Bengals threw too much with the lead, regardless of down or distance. Against the Bucs, they ran too much with the lead, regardless of down or distance. The complaints are valid. I don't mind a run-run-pass set of downs in the fourth quarter, but the pass on third down needs to be agressive. For example, what was that dinker pass to Kenny Watson late in the game? That play was doomed from the start. Why not actually call a play designed to throw for the first down, rather than relying on blocks and quick feet to pick it up for you?

I won't shovel all the blame on Bratkowski though. He did run the ball more than he usually does with the lead, and the offense didn't execute well enough to make it work.

[derekshank]

That right there is dead on balls accurate.

Yes... "dead on balls accurate" It's an industry term.

Also a My Cousin Vinny term.

Glad you caught it. It's not really well known like some of the Seinfeld quotes that get thrown around here... but it's one of my favorites.

My all time favorite from My Cousin Vinny:

Vinny Gambini: I understand you played a game of pool with Lisa for $200, which she won. I'm here to collect.

J.T.: How about if I just kick your ass?

Vinny Gambini: Oh, a counter-offer. That's what we lawyers - I'm a lawyer - we lawyers call that a counter-offer. This is a tough decision here. Get my ass kicked or collect $200. Let me think... I could use a good ass-kickin', I'll be very honest with you... nah, I think I'll just go with the two hundred.

[BengalByTheBay]

I believe the only interview he got was Det. Det doesnt have an NFL team,does it? I believe the best way to go against Carolina is draws and screens, so hopefully Perry will be back for this game.Brat will never be a head coach because he sucks!!! He has for four years.A new off.coordinator would NOT set us back a year,that is an ignorant assesment.Many teams have replaced a coordinator and been fine the next year.We have a veteran corps on offense and I expect they might be able to learn a new offense. I know a lot of people consider themselves football EXPERTS!!!! But get real they have from Feb to sept to learn an offense its not rocket science!!!! We dont have any players from Ohio State so I figure most of our players have actually attended college classes!!!!!

Since I'm so ignorant, perhaps you would be kind enough to point out one of these teams you speak of that fired its offensive coordinator mid season and did so well. If that's not what you meant then you must agree with me that firing an offensive coordinator now would doom the season. If you don't agree with that then answer my first question.