Watching Denver, San Diego, Baltimore and Chicago

[agreen_112]

These teams defense play so good and they're LB's are so much smarter than ours it kinda makes me sick. The way that the whole defense gets to the ball carrier is unbelievable compared to the Bengals. How can our defense be so bad at stopping the run? I don't understand how this happens year in and year out. Is it the coaches, scouting or just the defense that we play? Don't get me wrong all of these teams would love to have the offense that we have, which is excellent, but the O can't win every game for us. If we want to get deep into the playoffs we have to stiffen up our defense and I don't see that happening for at least another year or two...

[derekshank]

Yeah... and if all of those defenses lost their starting SS, SSLB, backup SSLB, and had to move their WSLB to MLB, well... they wouldn't be looking so good either.

No doubt... we don't have the players those teams have, and we don't dominate the line of scrimmage the way they do... but we're not as bad as we played our last two games either.

[kybengalsfan]

Yeah... and if all of those defenses lost their starting SS, SSLB, backup SSLB, and had to move their WSLB to MLB, well... they wouldn't be looking so good either.

No doubt... we don't have the players those teams have, and we don't dominate the line of scrimmage the way they do... but we're not as bad as we played our last two games either.

I honestly thought our defense would "arrive" this year; however, it hasn't yet. Let's hope we can get Adams into shape, Jeanty back, and our now experienced young guys playing good defense. I might be wrong, but Adams looks like a bust to me. He looks awfully slow. I'd be willing to tell him that to his face, as I'm sure I could outrun him

[HoosierCat]

It's talent, pure and simple.

I don't think its a coincidence that the best part of our D, the secondary, is the part on which they've used the most high draft picks (Joseph, Madieu) and spent in FA or traded most aggressively to improve (Tory, Deltha, Dexter).

They finally spent some high picks on the LB corps last year and that was starting to pay off with Odell and Pollack -- but they're gone now, and the team is trying to cobble together something out of an aging vet, a CFL castoff, a Pitt castoff, a not-ready-for-primetime-rookie, and a couple of backups. And that's showed.

The d-line has been given the short shrift for years. 3rd rounder Frostee Rucker, how out for the year, was the first day 1 pick they'd spent on DE since Justin. They haven't drafted a DT on day 1 since Big Daddy. Instead, the strategy seems to be to throw day 2 picks and cheap, aging vet FAs at the line and hope something clicks. It hasn't.

[agreen_112]

Even with all of those guys back, we're still not a good enough force to stop the run. The only thing we have going for us is the oppurtunistic ability we somehow have to force turnovers. In the playoffs and late in the season that will stop and we'll be forced to play hard-nose defense. Look at our last 3 games; @ INDY, @ Denver, Pittsburgh. We better not go into those last 3 needing at least 2 out of 3 wins to get into the playoffs.

With all of the power on offense, we can't afford to bring in Stars on the defense. Losing Odell for the season really hurt us the most. Major Loss

[derekshank]

I don't understand the sentiment that turnovers don't happen in the playoffs. They do... and usually determine the game. To assume that we only get turnovers because it's the regular season is silly. We're opportunitic... and that won't change come playoff time. We're going to the playoffs... and no one will want to play us. Not our offense... not our defense.

The issue we have to resolve is the big play. We can't let teams have 6 play TD drives. If we force them to us 13 or more plays to drive the field, they are likely to make a mistake, or stall out. Simple statistics tell you that. If our defense can stand it's ground against the run (which we have done fairly well when healthy)... our secondary should be good enough to continue getting us victories.

[HoosierCat]

I might be wrong, but Adams looks like a bust to me. He looks awfully slow. I'd be willing to tell him that to his face, as I'm sure I could outrun him

The whole point of getting an Adams was to put some size up front that would gum up running plays long enough for the LBs to come up and make plays. The trouble with our previous undersized lines was that, all too often, it was overpowered and pushed aside, meaning the LBs were in pursuit almost before they'd moved.

The problem now is that, while we've finally got that beef up front, we've suddenly found ourselves with a lack of playmaking LBs. And the loss of Dexter in run support from the safety spot has only compounded the problem.

[walzav29]

It is amazing that Pollack and Thurman will have no long term impact on this team. Let's remember though. C. Miller and Landon Johnson we're 3rd picks as well.

[derekshank]

I might be wrong, but Adams looks like a bust to me. He looks awfully slow. I'd be willing to tell him that to his face, as I'm sure I could outrun him

The whole point of getting an Adams was to put some size up front that would gum up running plays long enough for the LBs to come up and make plays. The trouble with our previous undersized lines was that, all too often, it was overpowered and pushed aside, meaning the LBs were in pursuit almost before they'd moved.

The problem now is that, while we've finally got that beef up front, we've suddenly found ourselves with a lack of playmaking LBs. And the loss of Dexter in run support from the safety spot has only compounded the problem.

Fair enough. We have a bunch of undersized LB's right now who aren't really filling the gaps. Simmons is doing fine... but Caleb Miller is no SSLB. We need to get Jeanty back on the field, and we need Brooks to develop into a good fill-in. Landon Johnson is okay... just not a star.

I agree that getting Jackson back will be great. He tackles like a LB, and he's good enough to free up Madieu to play better as well.

The problem seems to be that losing both Pollack and Thurman has killed our depth... so that being without Jeanty kills us. This is why we need Brooks to be what we hope he can be, and we need Jackson to stay healthy... because our safety depth just isn't there.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I would draft nothing but d-lineman and 0-lineman in the 1st two rounds of the draft every year.

[skyline]

Our defense would be much better if our drafting/luck had been somewhat better the past two seasons.

We lost our 1st round draft-choice in Pollack. We lost a 2nd round defender in Thurman. Two LB draft picks this year are worthless for the time being. Askew was a bust.

What else am I forgetting?

[derekshank]

I would draft nothing but d-lineman and 0-lineman in the 1st two rounds of the draft every year.

Well... I'd agree with taking a DE really early, but not a DT. They are usually considered the toughest position to judge coming out of college. There are an absolute ton of 1st round DT busts. They aren't used to playing against good competition on the O-Line, so a lot of times, really good DT's in college get used to relying completely on being so much bigger and stronger physically. You can't get by on that in the NFL.

I understand why we don't draft DT's on the first day. What we need is more draft picks like Peko and S. Smith to continue working out... or else bite the bullet and pay the big bucks for an elite FA DT who isn't on the back end of his career.

I remember reading a quote from Panther's coach John Fox who said that other than QB, there is not a position that impacts a game more than the DT. That is why they willing to overpay to bring in the 350 lb Kemoeatu to team up with the 335 lb Jenkins. That is a whole lot of beef that is a big reason they are always a top 10 defense every year.

[HoosierCat]

Our defense would be much better if our drafting/luck had been somewhat better the past two seasons.

We lost our 1st round draft-choice in Pollack. We lost a 2nd round defender in Thurman. Two LB draft picks this year are worthless for the time being. Askew was a bust.

What else am I forgetting?

2005:

1 LB David Pollack - hampered by holdout, injury, out for year, career in doubt

2 LB Odell Thurman - character blowout, out for year, career in doubt

7 DE Jonathan Fanene - Carl Powell Jr., currently on PUP

2004:

2 CB Keiwan Ratliff - stuck at nickle

2 S Madieu Williams - very good/elite player

3 LB Caleb Miller - regularly hurt, average backup

3 LB Landon Johnson - solid backup, possible starting WSLB eventually

4 DT Matthais Askew - gone

4 DE Robert Geathers - effective situational pass rusher, flopped as starter

6 CB Greg Brooks - oft-injured backup

2003:

4 CB Dennis Weathersby - gone

5 LB Khalid Abdullah - gone

6 DT Langston Moore - gone

7 DE Elton Patterson - gone

Basically, in terms of defensive players, the Bengals right now have completely lost the 2003 and 2005 drafts. And while most of the '04 defensive class remains, only Madieu represents a solid starter. All the rest are backup/depth/ST types.

As for the 2006 class, its too early to judge. Joseph looks like the real deal, which is good. Rucker is on IR already. Peko might develop, he's flashed. Nicholson has been injury-plagued. Kilmer is an ST type for now. Brooks? We'll see. We could use some of these guys, esp. Peko and Brooks, to grow up real fast.

[agreen_112]

Our defense would be much better if our drafting/luck had been somewhat better the past two seasons.

We lost our 1st round draft-choice in Pollack. We lost a 2nd round defender in Thurman. Two LB draft picks this year are worthless for the time being. Askew was a bust.

What else am I forgetting?

2005:

1 LB David Pollack - hampered by holdout, injury, out for year, career in doubt

2 LB Odell Thurman - character blowout, out for year, career in doubt

7 DE Jonathan Fanene - Carl Powell Jr., currently on PUP

2004:

2 CB Keiwan Ratliff - stuck at nickle

2 S Madieu Williams - very good/elite player

3 LB Caleb Miller - regularly hurt, average backup

3 LB Landon Johnson - solid backup, possible starting WSLB eventually

4 DT Matthais Askew - gone

4 DE Robert Geathers - effective situational pass rusher, flopped as starter

6 CB Greg Brooks - oft-injured backup

2003:

4 CB Dennis Weathersby - gone

5 LB Khalid Abdullah - gone

6 DT Langston Moore - gone

7 DE Elton Patterson - gone

Basically, in terms of defensive players, the Bengals right now have completely lost the 2003 and 2005 drafts. And while most of the '04 defensive class remains, only Madieu represents a solid starter. All the rest are backup/depth/ST types.

As for the 2006 class, its too early to judge. Joseph looks like the real deal, which is good. Rucker is on IR already. Peko might develop, he's flashed. Nicholson has been injury-plagued. Kilmer is an ST type for now. Brooks? We'll see. We could use some of these guys, esp. Peko and Brooks, to grow up real fast.

That's some terrible drafting. Last 2 years we should have been drafting nothing but defense on the first day.

[ArmyBengal]

I for one was totally looking forward to seeing what this defense was going to do this year and then injuries started hitting us. I will blame a lot of the problems on injuries, but at the same time, our backups SUCK. With them sucking, that leads to our defense sucking. Also, I'm sick to death of hearing how DT should be avoided until later in the draft because of so many busts coming from that position. That may be so, but when are we going to make an attempt, ANY ATTEMPT to bring in a DT that will make a difference on the d-line ?? Sam is obviously at the back side of his career (I still like him though) and I like S. Smith (doesn't play enough)... Peko should be good as well. If we are going to avoid DT in the draft, then d*mnit, go after a big name DT in FA. I understand the limits for the cap and the problems with having a big name salary, but do we just avoid it and let the same old same old continue ?? That's how it appears to me and I'm back to square one with this defense AS IT STANDS... Our defense SUCKS !!!

WHODEY !!!

[derekshank]

I don't know that it's terrible drafting. Just very little defense on the first day. What we have taken in the first day has been mostly unlucky. Ratliff and Miller are the only guys who have just not lived up to their potential. Pollack and Thurman are disappointing for completely different reasons.

But we will be drafting mostly defense in '07. (Our 3rd round pick already was).

I'm sick to death of hearing how DT should be avoided until later in the draft because of so many busts coming from that position. That may be so, but when are we going to make an attempt, ANY ATTEMPT to bring in a DT that will make a difference on the d-line ?? Sam is obviously at the back side of his career (I still like him though) and I like S. Smith (doesn't play enough)... Peko should be good as well. If we are going to avoid DT in the draft, then d*mnit, go after a big name DT in FA.

I think that is pretty much exactly what I said. If we're willing to spend money on a guy like Adams... why not spend a little more and get a guy who will be around for more than just a couple years as a temporary fix. Although, it seems less and less likely that we'll do that any time soon now that we have Peko potentially being a stud. It's time to fill out that line with a 1st round DE.

[Kirkendall]

These teams defense play so good and they're LB's are so much smarter than ours it kinda makes me sick. The way that the whole defense gets to the ball carrier is unbelievable compared to the Bengals. How can our defense be so bad at stopping the run? I don't understand how this happens year in and year out. Is it the coaches, scouting or just the defense that we play? Don't get me wrong all of these teams would love to have the offense that we have, which is excellent, but the O can't win every game for us. If we want to get deep into the playoffs we have to stiffen up our defense and I don't see that happening for at least another year or two...

We've beaten every team you've listed the last time we've played them. We'll beat them again.

[agreen_112]

These teams defense play so good and they're LB's are so much smarter than ours it kinda makes me sick. The way that the whole defense gets to the ball carrier is unbelievable compared to the Bengals. How can our defense be so bad at stopping the run? I don't understand how this happens year in and year out. Is it the coaches, scouting or just the defense that we play? Don't get me wrong all of these teams would love to have the offense that we have, which is excellent, but the O can't win every game for us. If we want to get deep into the playoffs we have to stiffen up our defense and I don't see that happening for at least another year or two...

We've beaten every team you've listed the last time we've played them. We'll beat them again.

It's not a question of whether we've beaten them or not... The point is: OUR DEFENSE SUCKS compared to these teams. IF we want to go deep into the playoffs then we must start to stop the run, it's as simple as that.

[derekshank]

These teams defense play so good and they're LB's are so much smarter than ours it kinda makes me sick. The way that the whole defense gets to the ball carrier is unbelievable compared to the Bengals. How can our defense be so bad at stopping the run? I don't understand how this happens year in and year out. Is it the coaches, scouting or just the defense that we play? Don't get me wrong all of these teams would love to have the offense that we have, which is excellent, but the O can't win every game for us. If we want to get deep into the playoffs we have to stiffen up our defense and I don't see that happening for at least another year or two...

We've beaten every team you've listed the last time we've played them. We'll beat them again.

It's not a question of whether we've beaten them or not... The point is: OUR DEFENSE SUCKS compared to these teams. IF we want to go deep into the playoffs then we must start to stop the run, it's as simple as that.

It actually is a question of whether we can beat them or not. If the teams listed with dominant defenses aren't as good as us... then which teams are going to keep us from advancing in the playoffs.

I'm not disagreeing that the defense needs to improve... but it's a team game, offense AND defense. Having a team that is all defense no offense is just as bad as having all offense. The games just look differently. High scoring vs. low scoring.

[walshfan]

The players have talent.. I question whether the coaches ( Hayes, Hunley) can coach them up to achieve the maximum abilities of each.

Breshnahan seems to play passively too.. Is it becuase he has no faith in the collective bunch?

[jditty47]

we dont blitz enough.

[Tasher]

While I agree that these defenses are pretty stout and exceptionally good defenses. Neither of the teams that played last night are very skilled offensively. So I would argue that some of what you saw last night that made the defenses look SO GOOD was OFFENSIVE INEPTITUDE.

Better put, when they play an exceptionally GOOD OFFENSE, they will not look quite so good.

Baltimore gets a lesson in 4 weeks and got off easy vs SD while that offense is still in its training wheels, which nearly everybody admits came off vs squealers.

Denver gets its lesson in week 16.

[agreen_112]

While I agree that these defenses are pretty stout and exceptionally good defenses. Neither of the teams that played last night are very skilled offensively. So I would argue that some of what you saw last night that made the defenses look SO GOOD was OFFENSIVE INEPTITUDE.

Better put, when they play an exceptionally GOOD OFFENSE, they will not look quite so good.

Baltimore gets a lesson in 4 weeks and got off easy vs SD while that offense is still in its training wheels, which nearly everybody admits came off vs squealers.

Denver gets its lesson in week 16.

I dont' agree with that. We let the browns put up 17, and the Steelers 20. Our defense will let those teams put up bigger #'s than what they showed the last 2 nights. If we dont fix it then we wont get past Indy, N.E., San Diego, or Denver in the Playoffs. We've got Indy, Denver, and Pittsburgh the last 3 weeks, and a pretty good chance that we'll play one of them again early in the playoffs. I have faith, but it's not looking too good at this point. We need to just play one game at a time and work on improving the run defense to that caliber of the Kansas City game.

[volcom69]

When we do blitz we dont get there i hope this bye week they made up some new blitz. I hope after the bye that the corners actully get up on the wide reciever and play aggresive towards them it always seems like we play like 10 yards off or something. The corner backs and safties have to shoot the gaps also and takle behind the line of scrimage which we could have done a couple times last game, they need to look at the tape against KC and just see what they were doing there.

[derekshank]

I dont' agree with that. We let the browns put up 17, and the Steelers 20. Our defense will let those teams put up bigger #'s than what they showed the last 2 nights. If we dont fix it then we wont get past Indy, N.E., San Diego, or Denver in the Playoffs.

First of all... our defense didn't give up 17 points to the Browns. I don't care what the final score said. 10 of those points came off of turnovers where they started in their own redzone. They gained a total of 26 yards to get those 10 points. They had only 1 legitimate drive for a score. Our defense played well. Also... the 20 points we held the Steelers to was fewer than they scored in any of the 3 games we played them last year, and we didn't stop the run well. If we fix the run defense (which I contend will get much better when Jeanty and Jackson get back) they don't even get 20.

As far as getting past Indy, N.E., San Diego, or Denver in the playoffs... Indy's run defense is worse than ours, and they don't have an offensive running game either. We're a better team than them at this point.

As long as Plummer is Denver's QB count me unafraid.

N.E. has no WR's, and their defense's age won't allow them to hold up all season.

And San Diego... they look impressive, but they lost to Baltimore, and we saw what their offense can manage last night.

The point is... every team has weaknesses. Every team's forum can get on their message board today and complain about something they don't like about their team (with the possible exception of the Bears at this early point). Don't fret. We'll get it together... and as stated earlier... we're better than the teams you've listed, and I think we'll represent the AFC in the Super Bowl this year.