Steiny

[Jet23]

Enough with the Guycheck thing! Given the history of the medical staff, Braham will be lucky to live through the season let alone play again this year. Can we really afford to wait to see if the project pans out? Marvin has stated, on many occasions, that they could not sign all of the potential FA linemen. That leaves Steinbach as the odd man out. Maybe it is time to rethink that stance. I think ML is learning (along with the rest of us) just how valuable the center postion is. Moving Steiny to center will also allow Whitworth to play Tackle. He is a beast in the running game and Rudi can really use the holes.

I hope that ML is not playing for next year, anticipating Steinbach's departure. The future is NOW! Make the move Marvin!

[SkinneymulleT]

Agreed. The game steiny played center it was like our line zone of protection expanded in the middle, allowing the tackles to spread. He had such a wingspan there. The pass protection was sweet, now it may have just been the team we played but he was a beast in the middle. Dont remember anything special on the run block though but again IMHO the pass pro improved. Our line will rock!

[JaxonFord87]

I wouldn't mind seeing steinbach playing center again. It would give the rookie the time that he needs to get experience. I can just imagine our o-line next season if we permantly moved steiny to center and Whitworth played in his spot.

[derekshank]

I think it is obvious that Steiny would be an upgrade over Ghiaciuc (because he's smart, he's a veteran, and he's versatile), but I'm not ready to anoint him the savior of the O-Line either.

Am I correct in assuming that we're basing our opinion of Steiny at Center on the half game he played after both Braham and Moore went down? If we're going based on just one game of action, we would have had to assume that Ghiaciuc was more than capable based on his start last year against Jacksonville.

I'm willing to give it a try... because I don't want to see the season go to hell if Ghiaciuc really is the problem right now. But I still doubt we're going to re-sign Steiny. He's still going to want huge money, whether we move him to Center or not. He's still got a ton of experience at both Guard, and Tackle... so giving him time at Center will do nothing but make the price go up.

If Ghiaciuc isn't the future at center, then the solution here is going to have to be using a first day draft pick on a Center in April.

[derekshank]

Also... I was just thinking. What I've been noticing the biggest problem with Ghiaciuc is that he's been incredibly susceptible to the bullrush.

Some of this can be an issue of technique. He's allowing guys to get on his shoulder and turn his body, rather than forcing them to take him on squarely. But I can remember at least once that it didn't matter... he simply got pushed straight back until Palmer was standing right next to him.

Usually being bullrushed has a lot to do with simple strength and weight. I'm guessing that Braham must be much stronger than Ghiaciuc, because they are about the same weight... but you never see Braham get pushed around. Against bigger stronger NT's, Ghiaciuc is getting owned.

Steiny is about 15 lbs lighter than Ghiaciuc. I don't have any idea if he's significantly stronger than Ghiaciuc... but I don't know how much we can expect him to be an improvement over Ghiaciuc at his weight. Technique can only accomplish so much when you're facing a guy who is 350 lbs.

Just a thought.

[GregCook]

What happened to the finest O-Line in Football? Has it disappeared like a mirage? GuyCheck will get better, he's only played a few games. I think the real problem is Carson Palmer taking too long to throw the ball and that is a significant change from last season. Quicker releases will instantly make GuyCheck better.

Anyone think his injury has affected his play this season?

[HairOnFire]

I think the real problem is Carson Palmer taking too long to throw the ball and that is a significant change from last season. Quicker releases will instantly make GuyCheck better.

Quicker decision making will make the entire line better...including Steinbach, who really isn't playing much better than Ghiacuic is.

Brat was on the NFL Network several days ago explaining the offense to Solomon Wilcots, and one of the core points he made was that regardless of the drop Palmer was expected to progress through his reads only to his 2nd option. At that point he's allowed two beats (or pats of the ball) before throwing to his checkdown receiver. This season he's been consistently late in regards to giving up on a play by checking down, and Marvin finally commented on it in his last press conference.

Bottom Line: Palmer's rehab was remarkable and demonstrates the incredible focus that is driving his early return, but that same desire to prove that he's back has led Palmer into the trap of attempting to do too much on each play.

[Jet23]

I think the real problem is Carson Palmer taking too long to throw the ball and that is a significant change from last season. Quicker releases will instantly make GuyCheck better.

Quicker decision making will make the entire line better...including Steinbach, who really isn't playing much better than Ghiacuic is.

Brat was on the NFL Network several days ago explaining the offense to Solomon Wilcots, and one of the core points he made was that regardless of the drop Palmer was expected to progress through his reads only to his 2nd option. At that point he's allowed two beats (or pats of the ball) before throwing to his checkdown receiver. This season he's been consistently late in regards to giving up on a play by checking down, and Marvin finally commented on it in his last press conference.

Bottom Line: Palmer's rehab was remarkable and demonstrates the incredible focus that is driving his early return, but that same desire to prove that he's back has led Palmer into the trap of attempting to do too much on each play.

You are right about Steinbach not playing that great. There is way too much push up the middle. I think Whitworth can help with that. And if it's a technique thing, maybe he can give Jim McNally a call.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but I think the pick-up of the FA tackle Monday was a result of them making this move (Steiny to Center, Whitworth to LG).

This would make sense since they would need another back-up Tackle to take Whitworth's spot. Of course Whitworth did play some guard in preseason as well.

I think this upgrades the center position and you lose very little at the guard position - as I thought Whitworth was fairly impressive when he played from what I heard and saw.

Lucky that Carson is 6'5" because that's one tall/big middle of the line now with Whitworth at 6'7" and Steiny at 6'5".

I also like little Rudi hiding behind them and picking his holes up the middle behind all that mass.

Now who knows if they are actually going to do this - but I think it's safe to say Guy-chick is not working out (go figure, been saying this myself or over a year now).

Bobby Williams also needs to step up and start playing better too.

And I don't know why they aren't using JJ more in blocking roles - saw freakin' Kelly in the H-back last week - what a waste - get JJ in those patterns and let him do the blocking. He's better at it.

[derekshank]

I think the best thing about putting Steiny in at Center will be getting Whitworth on the field. Even though Steiny is only 290... he would have guys on either side of him to help with double teams that are 339 lbs and 342 lbs. Ghiaciuc has Williams on his right... but Steiny on his left is also under-sized.

Having two huge guys on either side of the Center will do wonders for that bullrush push that has so quickly destroyed the pocket in the last two games.

So even though I doubt Steiny will be a huge upgrade over Ghiaciuc in individual play... the line play as a whole should get much better. I personally believe that Whitworth is twice the player Ghiaciuc is... so getting the best 5 O-linemen on the field should improve the production.

[TJJackson]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but I think the pick-up of the FA tackle Monday was a result of them making this move (Steiny to Center, Whitworth to LG).

This would make sense since they would need another back-up Tackle to take Whitworth's spot. Of course Whitworth did play some guard in preseason as well.

Andrews and Kooistra are already available as tackles, so although I understand your rationale I am not certain I agree with it.....

[derekshank]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but I think the pick-up of the FA tackle Monday was a result of them making this move (Steiny to Center, Whitworth to LG).

This would make sense since they would need another back-up Tackle to take Whitworth's spot. Of course Whitworth did play some guard in preseason as well.

Andrews and Kooistra are already available as tackles, so although I understand your rationale I am not certain I agree with it.....

Yeah... not to mention that you don't really need another O-Lineman to make that switch. If Levi were to go down, you would just move Steiny from Center, and go back to Ghiaciuc. The back-ups wouldn't really change much. I don't think there should be much read into this move (although they very well migth try out Steiny at Center).

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but I think the pick-up of the FA tackle Monday was a result of them making this move (Steiny to Center, Whitworth to LG).

This would make sense since they would need another back-up Tackle to take Whitworth's spot. Of course Whitworth did play some guard in preseason as well.

Andrews and Kooistra are already available as tackles, so although I understand your rationale I am not certain I agree with it.....

I thought Kooistra was released/put on the PS?

I also thought Andrews was pretty much a RT only.

I think they just needed a body. I also wouldn't be suprised to see Guy-chick moved to guard.

I mentioned this in the other thread, but I think the pick-up of the FA tackle Monday was a result of them making this move (Steiny to Center, Whitworth to LG).

This would make sense since they would need another back-up Tackle to take Whitworth's spot. Of course Whitworth did play some guard in preseason as well.

Andrews and Kooistra are already available as tackles, so although I understand your rationale I am not certain I agree with it.....

Yeah... not to mention that you don't really need another O-Lineman to make that switch. If Levi were to go down, you would just move Steiny from Center, and go back to Ghiaciuc. The back-ups wouldn't really change much. I don't think there should be much read into this move (although they very well migth try out Steiny at Center).

I really don't think they want to move Steiny back and forth from LT to Center constantly, every time someone gets hurt. The point here is to stabilize the line and keep guys in natural positions long term and let them develop.

Whitworth's transition to LT from LG if Levi gets hurt, is much easier for him than Steiny playing 3 different positions constantly.

[GregCook]

I agree with you steak man. Steiny to center strikes me as panic and I've never seen Marvin panic. Its' not just GuyCheck. Levi has been beat. Willie too. I think the heart of the matter is getting Carson to release it sooner. I've not seen or heard Marvin or Brat's interviews, but I have watched the games.

But there is more to it I think. How could New Englands sorry ass secondary cover 85 and 84 so well? So well, Carson couldn't find anyone to pass? So well he gets sacked & fumbles?

My question is Carson. He isn't the same guy as last season. No doubt the injury is affecting his play either mentally, emotionally or physically.

[derekshank]

I agree with you steak man. Steiny to center strikes me as panic and I've never seen Marvin panic.

Really? What did you call it last year when he began practicing Stacey Andrews at DT? Marvin's dissatisfaction with the DT play was obvious, and trying to move an O-Lineman to the defense... whether just an experiment or not... seems like a panic move to me. It is at the very least closer to panic than moving a veteran and versatile O-Lineman to the right one space. Especially when you consider the 2nd round talent that is sitting on the bench in Whitworth.

The fact is that Ghiaciuc got steam-rolled in the 4th quarter against NE. I didn't watch the first half closely enough to judge his play over the course of the whole game... but I don't think we can ignore this trend.

In the almost exactly 5 quarters that Braham played, we allowed only 1 single sack. In the 11 quarters since then... 14 sacks. If you want to say the rest of the O-Line is playing poorly... fine. However, it seems to me that at least some of that is related to very mediocre Center play.

Like it or not... it might be time to panic. We can't sit there and refuse to adapt to the situation when it is clearly getting out of hand. Moving Steiny to center would get a better player in Whitworth on the field, and would likely improve the play of the whole line as Steiny is intelligent enough to make good reads. I don't know if it will fix the problems or not... but hey, it's something.

As Benjamin Franklin would say: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

[Kazkal]

What worries me is if Ghiaciuc ain't the center of the future be a 4th rnder wasted and then back to square one next year inless we move steinbach to full time center and resign him for a bently size contract(because you know its what he'd want)

next choice would be give wilkerson a shot sense he was suppossed be best center draft (I think bass got moved to guard even) or use a high rnd draft pick when alrdy have quite abit needs ahead of another center.

[derekshank]

What worries me is if Ghiaciuc ain't the center of the future be a 4th rnder wasted and then back to square one next year inless we move steinbach to full time center and resign him for a bently size contract(because you know its what he'd want)

next choice would be give wilkerson a shot sense he was suppossed be best center draft (I think bass got moved to guard even) or use a high rnd draft pick when alrdy have quite abit needs ahead of another center.

Like what? If we don't re-sign Justin Smith we'll need to use a 1st round pick on a DE... but I doubt that we'll let him walk. We need a safety for the future... but you can get usually get good projects later in the draft... and Dexter isn't ready to retire yet. We might need LB depth depending on how Pollack and Thurman play out... but that can easily be addressed on the first day without worrying about "wasting" a pick on a center. We might need a better TE too... but it seems like this draft class will be fairly deep again in that category (I'm shooting for the Cincinnati Bearcat Brent Celek maybe as an early 2nd day pick). I think we're in fairly decent shape to take a first day center if the need is there.

Using a 4th rounder on a guy who didn't work out as a starter isn't the end of the world either. Frankly, we're lucky we've gotten as much starting potential out of the 4th round that we have when you look down the 4th round of drafts.

We have Jeremi Johnson, Robert Geathers, Domata Peko. However... at the same time we've got taken guys like Matthias Askew, Dennis Weathersby, and Stacy Andrews. It seems to me that having a guy who can fill in as a back-up is about getting what you pay for in the 4th round.

[GregCook]

I agree with you steak man. Steiny to center strikes me as panic and I've never seen Marvin panic.

Really? What did you call it last year when he began practicing Stacey Andrews at DT? Marvin's dissatisfaction with the DT play was obvious, and trying to move an O-Lineman to the defense... whether just an experiment or not... seems like a panic move to me. It is at the very least closer to panic than moving a veteran and versatile O-Lineman to the right one space. Especially when you consider the 2nd round talent that is sitting on the bench in Whitworth.

The fact is that Ghiaciuc got steam-rolled in the 4th quarter against NE. I didn't watch the first half closely enough to judge his play over the course of the whole game... but I don't think we can ignore this trend.

In the almost exactly 5 quarters that Braham played, we allowed only 1 single sack. In the 11 quarters since then... 14 sacks. If you want to say the rest of the O-Line is playing poorly... fine. However, it seems to me that at least some of that is related to very mediocre Center play.

Like it or not... it might be time to panic. We can't sit there and refuse to adapt to the situation when it is clearly getting out of hand. Moving Steiny to center would get a better player in Whitworth on the field, and would likely improve the play of the whole line as Steiny is intelligent enough to make good reads. I don't know if it will fix the problems or not... but hey, it's something.

As Benjamin Franklin would say: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Hmmm, let me suggest flipping a coin over and over(doing the same thing) .... I do expect different results each time I do it. Does that make me insane?

Now back to football. Do we infact know that GuyCheck is making the reads and mess'en them up? Palmer might, Willie too. I have seen others besides GuyCheck get beat so I'm not ready to say he's the key to the problem. Carson holding the ball too long is my thought on the problem, more so than GuyCheck. I think GuyCheck has blown some plays but I don't think he's the root problem. One other difference from last year. Matt Schobel is gone. He was a nice pass catching TE.

[derekshank]

I agree with you steak man. Steiny to center strikes me as panic and I've never seen Marvin panic.

Really? What did you call it last year when he began practicing Stacey Andrews at DT? Marvin's dissatisfaction with the DT play was obvious, and trying to move an O-Lineman to the defense... whether just an experiment or not... seems like a panic move to me. It is at the very least closer to panic than moving a veteran and versatile O-Lineman to the right one space. Especially when you consider the 2nd round talent that is sitting on the bench in Whitworth.

The fact is that Ghiaciuc got steam-rolled in the 4th quarter against NE. I didn't watch the first half closely enough to judge his play over the course of the whole game... but I don't think we can ignore this trend.

In the almost exactly 5 quarters that Braham played, we allowed only 1 single sack. In the 11 quarters since then... 14 sacks. If you want to say the rest of the O-Line is playing poorly... fine. However, it seems to me that at least some of that is related to very mediocre Center play.

Like it or not... it might be time to panic. We can't sit there and refuse to adapt to the situation when it is clearly getting out of hand. Moving Steiny to center would get a better player in Whitworth on the field, and would likely improve the play of the whole line as Steiny is intelligent enough to make good reads. I don't know if it will fix the problems or not... but hey, it's something.

As Benjamin Franklin would say: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Hmmm, let me suggest flipping a coin over and over(doing the same thing) .... I do expect different results each time I do it. Does that make me insane?

Now back to football. Do we infact know that GuyCheck is making the reads and mess'en them up? Palmer might, Willie too. I have seen others besides GuyCheck get beat so I'm not ready to say he's the key to the problem. Carson holding the ball too long is my thought on the problem, more so than GuyCheck. I think GuyCheck has blown some plays but I don't think he's the root problem. One other difference from last year. Matt Schobel is gone. He was a nice pass catching TE.

Yeah... flipping a coin is the same thing. Intelligent.

As for Ghiaciuc making reads... yes, that is the center's job. The pass blocking was as dominant as last year until Braham went down. Have the tackles been beaten? Sure... but a ton of that pressure is coming right down the middle... and a lot of it is Ghiaciuc being bullrushed... and a lot of it is missing the assignment (Ghiaciuc's job to assign it).

Whether he's the root of the problem can be argued... but what can't be argued is that we gave up 4 sacks against the Browns in the final 3 quarters of the game, 6 against Pittsburgh, and 4 against NE. Poor pass blocking was in no way evident until Braham got hurt.

[Kazkal]

Like what? If we don't re-sign Justin Smith we'll need to use a 1st round pick on a DE...

Actually even if we resigned Justin I'd still like to see a 1st or 2nd rnd DE to go on the otherside of him...

As for others needs "shrug" DT,Safety or TE depending on who we bring in FA etc would be nice to see bengals sign graham sense both tony and kellys contracts exspire next year.

and Dexter isn't ready to retire yet.

Aye Id perfer to see a safety next years draft inless nice one falls but still could take one this year for depth reasons....that way we have someone if we lose dexter or madieu again...or even worse both

ut that can easily be addressed on the first day without worrying about "wasting" a pick on a center. I diden't mean it wasting bad choice words. more ment we were thinking guycheck was future and I know its only 4th rnder but alot of draftpicks have been in doubt lately....

Odell,rucker,henry "shrug"

Now back to football. Do we infact know that GuyCheck is making the reads and mess'en them up? Palmer might, Willie too. I have seen others besides GuyCheck get beat so I'm not ready to say he's the key to the problem. Carson holding the ball too long is my thought on the problem,

Carsons fumbles have been in seconds its not like hes sitting back there for 10 seconds then attempts to throw it and fumbles it..the other linemen have been getting beat but its checks job to make the calls and give blocking assignments no?

Matt Schobel is gone. He was a nice pass catching TE.

I was watching nfl network and mcnabb was giving credit to schobel and other backups for making a difference...its nice to see him getting some credit even though hes the 2nd string TE there.still wish we had him instead stonehands tony stewart.

[GregCook]

I agree with you steak man. Steiny to center strikes me as panic and I've never seen Marvin panic.

Really? What did you call it last year when he began practicing Stacey Andrews at DT? Marvin's dissatisfaction with the DT play was obvious, and trying to move an O-Lineman to the defense... whether just an experiment or not... seems like a panic move to me. It is at the very least closer to panic than moving a veteran and versatile O-Lineman to the right one space. Especially when you consider the 2nd round talent that is sitting on the bench in Whitworth.

The fact is that Ghiaciuc got steam-rolled in the 4th quarter against NE. I didn't watch the first half closely enough to judge his play over the course of the whole game... but I don't think we can ignore this trend.

In the almost exactly 5 quarters that Braham played, we allowed only 1 single sack. In the 11 quarters since then... 14 sacks. If you want to say the rest of the O-Line is playing poorly... fine. However, it seems to me that at least some of that is related to very mediocre Center play.

Like it or not... it might be time to panic. We can't sit there and refuse to adapt to the situation when it is clearly getting out of hand. Moving Steiny to center would get a better player in Whitworth on the field, and would likely improve the play of the whole line as Steiny is intelligent enough to make good reads. I don't know if it will fix the problems or not... but hey, it's something.

As Benjamin Franklin would say: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Hmmm, let me suggest flipping a coin over and over(doing the same thing) .... I do expect different results each time I do it. Does that make me insane?

Now back to football. Do we infact know that GuyCheck is making the reads and mess'en them up? Palmer might, Willie too. I have seen others besides GuyCheck get beat so I'm not ready to say he's the key to the problem. Carson holding the ball too long is my thought on the problem, more so than GuyCheck. I think GuyCheck has blown some plays but I don't think he's the root problem. One other difference from last year. Matt Schobel is gone. He was a nice pass catching TE.

Yeah... flipping a coin is the same thing. Intelligent.

As for Ghiaciuc making reads... yes, that is the center's job. The pass blocking was as dominant as last year until Braham went down. Have the tackles been beaten? Sure... but a ton of that pressure is coming right down the middle... and a lot of it is Ghiaciuc being bullrushed... and a lot of it is missing the assignment (Ghiaciuc's job to assign it).

Whether he's the root of the problem can be argued... but what can't be argued is that we gave up 4 sacks against the Browns in the final 3 quarters of the game, 6 against Pittsburgh, and 4 against NE. Poor pass blocking was in no way evident until Braham got hurt.

Whats very intelligent is doing alittle analysis before beating your chest.

Look back on the sacks given up and they have come from these positions:

2 times from DB's

6 times from DE's

6 times from LBs

Not one from a DT. Not one from a nose tackle. Does GuyCheck take on DB's? DE's?

Of the 6 from LB's some of those could be GuyCheck's responsibility. But more likely those sacks came because communication broke down or the FB, TE missed their blocks.

About NE game, two DE's accounted for all 4 sacks. Does GuyCheck have responsibility for DE's too?

Of course maybe Richie is Super Richie and can block DT's with his left arm and DE's with his right all while calling out assignments ahead of time.

check it out

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20061001_NE@CIN

[HoosierCat]

Quicker decision making will make the entire line better...including Steinbach, who really isn't playing much better than Ghiacuic is.

Brat was on the NFL Network several days ago explaining the offense to Solomon Wilcots, and one of the core points he made was that regardless of the drop Palmer was expected to progress through his reads only to his 2nd option. At that point he's allowed two beats (or pats of the ball) before throwing to his checkdown receiver. This season he's been consistently late in regards to giving up on a play by checking down, and Marvin finally commented on it in his last press conference.

Bottom Line: Palmer's rehab was remarkable and demonstrates the incredible focus that is driving his early return, but that same desire to prove that he's back has led Palmer into the trap of attempting to do too much on each play.

Possibly. You also have to consider that his checkdown options have dropped in quality in the early going this season. Over the first four games last season the primary dump-off guys were Schobel, Chris Perry, and Kevin Walters, who combined for something like 225 yards and 2 TDs over those four games. In the pass-catching department, Reggie Kelly and Watson are clearly a step down from Schobel and Perry. Tab was a step up -- but he got hurt two games in, and those two games Palmer didn't have his most-loved target, TJ.

Palmer definitely needs to get rid of the ball faster on a lot of plays, and I've said as much elsewhere. And I think he'd pull that trigger quicker if he had his better weapons back. Unfortunately, TE is probably a lost cause at this point, unless they bring up Ghent, which they don't seem inclined to do, and who knows when Tab will be back. I have a feeling Chris Perry is going to come in with some high expectations in Carolina.

[walshfan]

For all of you that keep harping on Guycheck please read post#7 by Hair on Fire again and again and again until it sinks in .....

[derekshank]

Look back on the sacks given up and they have come from these positions:

2 times from DB's

6 times from DE's

6 times from LBs

Not one from a DT. Not one from a nose tackle. Does GuyCheck take on DB's? DE's?

Of the 6 from LB's some of those could be GuyCheck's responsibility. But more likely those sacks came because communication broke down or the FB, TE missed their blocks.

I don't really care what defensive positions are giving up the sacks. You said it... communication broke down. That is the Center's job.

Secondly... you can say all you want about DE's being the guys who got the official sacks on Palmer... but the pass rush was coming straight down the middle. The pocket collapsed front and center. Go watch the game... not the stats on gamecenter. The Center postion was getting bullrushed and steamrolled.

Like I said... I'm not 100% sure that Steiny moving to center is the answer here... but it seems pretty obvious that we miss Braham in there a lot, given how terrible the entire line has played in his absence, and how well it played in his presence.