Possible Trade with Ratliff?

[Kazkal]

Joseph slotted at No. 3

By GEOFF HOBSON

August 31, 2006

2:35 a.m.

This is what competition is supposed to do. It brings out the best in one and stokes the fire of the other.

Enter Keiwan Ratliff, who lost the nickel cornerback job to first-round pick Johnathan Joseph despite two long interception returns this preseason that included a touchdown.

“It is what it is. Not really,” said Ratliff, when asked if he’s surprised. “I understand the business part of it takes over sometimes, so I have to put on tape what I can for everybody who is watching and hopefully somebody likes it.”

Oh, the Bengals like it. They must because Ratliff is still here even though at least one other team inquired about his services during the preseason. But the fact is, the Bengals acquired a consensus first-round pick in Joseph and in this business if he can’t play nickel for them now, then something is drastically wrong in the NFL order.

“ He’s been our starting nickel player since he walked in the room, since we drafted him,” sniffed head coach Marvin Lewis on Wednesday. “I don’t think there is any great shakes there. He’s been our starting nickel, the inside corner on third downs, since we brought him here. He’s taken the snaps with the first group the whole time.”

As for Ratliff, Lewis observed, “Keiwan has done some good things, but Johnathan will be our inside corner on third downs. . .I don’t know if it affects Keiwan’s role at all. I don’t know whether Keiwan had a role. Everyone’s got to earn their role around here.”

Joseph’s role as the 24th pick in the draft is Resident Stud; a player some believe is in the early stages of a run that could verge on at least a near Pro Bowl career. Ratliff’s role as a second-round pick in the 2004 draft as the 49th player taken is as Versatile and Solid Player who can assert himself on passing downs while also returning punts and filling in at safety during a pinch.

The difference between the 24th player and the 49th player comes down to inches, pounds, and split seconds. At 5-11, 193, Joseph is slightly bigger than the 5-11, 185-pound Ratliff, and as the second fastest player at the NFL scouting combine back in February, more than a tad quicker. Lack of speed, the scouts say, is what dropped Ratliff to the second round.

Speed clearly is a factor in putting Joseph inside in the slot when the other team goes with more than two receivers and starting corners Tory James and Deltha O’Neal need help.

Even though he never played a game at South Carolina in the slot (“I just played in practice”), he showed the Bengals he could do it in practices he went up against a host of different slot receivers ranging from savvy T.J. Houshmandzadeh to physical Kelley Washington to speedy Antonio Chatman when Chatman was healthy back in the spring.

Secondary coach Kevin Coyle is looking for some kind of mythical centaur-like athlete in the slot; a guy that is almost half linebacker, half flanker.

“You’ve got to be able to decipher things very quickly. There are a lot of route combinations coming at you fast,” said Coyle after Wednesday’s practice. “On the outside, it’s just you and the receiver. Inside, there are multiple receivers and multiple responsibilities in not only the passing game, but the run game. At times you have to play like a linebacker and you need that speed and agility to cover receivers in the slot that are generally the quicker guys.”

Even though Joseph scalded the turf at the Dome in Indianapolis by running that searing 4.32-second 40-yard combine dash, he admitted he had to get used to the quick, different style inside at the pro’s warp speed.

“There are a lot reads. You’re looking at the offensive linemen trying to get reads if it’s pass or run,” Joseph said. “You just have to be more aware. You’re trying to get your hand on this guy, that guy, you’re in this zone, that zone, and there’s a lot of passing off (receivers). On the outside, it’s just pretty much you and the other guy.”

If Ratliff sounds frustrated, what more can a guy do? In the Mock Game at training camp he returned one of two interceptions for a touchdown. Against Washington he took a pick 52 yards the other way and in Buffalo he took one back for a score.

“It is what it is,” Ratliff said.

But the Buffalo game also revealed a Ratliff weakness. When he jumped a route on wide receiver Lee Evans, Ratliff didn’t have the speed to recover in time as Evans sped past him for a 47-yard touchdown.

Joseph got beat for a touchdown late in the first half Monday night when he let Green Bay’s Donald Driver break to the outside on him and allowed quarterback Brett Favre’s 17-yard touchdown pass. But it wasn’t because Driver was faster. It was because Joseph lined up in the wrong technique.

Joseph, it seems, has been a bit more all-around. It will be recalled Ratliff’s pick against Washington came partly because of a Joseph blitz off the slot, a task they think he does well.

“He's done everything well. He's been a great blitzer. He's been a good tackler,” Lewis said. “He's understanding how and what we're doing. It's what we expected when we drafted him. We thought he'd be able to handle the wide receivers and kind of eliminate them from the game. . .The game has not been too big for him. It's almost as though it's his second year and not his first.”

Even if Colts quarterback Peyton Manning only plays a series Friday, it’s going to be another big speed test for Joseph on the same field he already passed the combine’s 40-yard exam. He figures he’s going to be out there right away because Indy uses the three-receiver set “like it is their regular formation. All those guys, from the quarterback to the receivers to the tight ends are quick.”

On Monday it was Favre. On Friday it’s Manning. Ho hum. Just another Hall-of-Fame tour for a NFL rookie.

“Every time I go out there, I’m going against guys I saw play on TV,” Joseph said. “Every game is a big challenge for me now.”

His biggest challenge looks to be keeping the job from the competitive, talented Ratliff.

“They haven’t before,” said Ratliff of a possible rotation. “I hope they do change it. I’m just going to do what ever I can where ever they put me.”

With Bauman going down probbley won't happen but kinda wonder who wanted him and what they were willing to spend he'd be good for team who CB's play alot of zone.

Body, Patrick 41 CB 6-2 198 Toledo 2 1/17/1982

Brooks, Greg 27 CB 5-11 182 Southern Mississippi 3 12/16/1980

James, Tory 20 CB 6-2 192 LSU 11 5/18/1973

Joseph, Johnathan * 22 CB 5-11 193 South Carolina R 4/16/1984

O´Neal, Deltha 24 CB 5-11 194 California 7 1/30/1977

Ratliff, Keiwan 25 CB 5-11 188 Florida 3 4/19/1981

That would leave us with Body and Brooks.

We will need a nickle corner next year when JJ becomes the starter and we lose tory,but if rat is being replaced this year because they want someone who has more speed they'll probbley want the same thing next year (brooks,bauman or new rookie) bring dennis weathersby back!

[Stripes]

Sounds like the Bengals don't care to part ways with Ratliff, so I'd imagine no other teams would be willing to offer us anything interesting.

[Kazkal]

"nods" probbley not which teams have their corners do alot zone anyways? tampa?

[jditty47]

niners could desperately use him. saints too...chargers even perhaps. alot of teams could use ratliff since hes a better 3rd corner than most teams have on their roster.

[Kazkal]

Rather then make another crappy thread ill post it here sense the eagles Signed AJ I dount they'll be keeping chang Lets snag him for our 3rd QB

[BlainThePain]

I remember reading that Philly really liked him during the draft and tried to trade up with us to draft him. I wouldn't trade him for anything less than a 2nd round pick. Depth at corner is priceless and this might light a fire under Ratliff's arse and turn him into a probowl caliber CB. Plus, Tory will be gone after this year so we will just need another nickle corner in 2007 anyway, so you might as well keep him.

[schweinhart]

If there's any intent to trade Ratliff, now would probably be the time before lack of PT drops his value. Kaz floats the ideer of swapping Keiwan and K-Dub for Daniel Graham, which sounds real tempting and certainly doable by both teams.

Even though the depth looks like just Brooks and Body behind the top 3 CBs, there's always K2 as zone corner and Madieu who is the 3rd best man corner behind O'Neal and Joseph. So there's more depth than meets the eye even if it requires some shuffling at safety in the event 3 of the 5 CBs are out at the same time.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

If there's any intent to trade Ratliff, now would probably be the time before lack of PT drops his value. Kaz floats the ideer of swapping Keiwan and K-Dub for Daniel Graham, which sounds real tempting and certainly doable by both teams.

Even though the depth looks like just Brooks and Body behind the top 3 CBs, there's always K2 as zone corner and Madieu who is the 3rd best man corner behind O'Neal and Joseph. So there's more depth than meets the eye even if it requires some shuffling at safety in the event 3 of the 5 CBs are out at the same time.

Only problem is that the depth at safety is itself rather thin, which I realize comes as a shock to no Bengals fan after last year. But if they could get Graham, do it.

As an aside, I think Hobson was being a bit more homer-friendly than usual in that article. He called Kelly "Alligator Arms" Washington 'physical'.

[Spain]

Hell be right back there as nikel when Tory leaves.

[Tasher]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/o...06bennotes.html

Not that I love chick or anything, but here's an excerpt...

Ratliff under the bus

You won't find cornerback Keiwan Ratliff under a microscope. He's under the bus.

Lewis named rookie Johnathan Joseph the nickel back, or the fifth defensive back, on passing downs. The "dime" — or sixth DB — is safety Kevin Kaesviharn.

"I don't know if it affects Keiwan's role at all," Lewis said. "I don't know whether Keiwan had a role. Everyone's got to earn their role around here. Keiwan has done some good things, but Johnathan will be our inside corner on third downs."

Where does Ratliff stand in the defense?

"Your guess is as good as mine," Ratliff said. "I really can't complain. I just went out and tried to impress whoever I could impress. Unfortunately, I came up short."

Well, ArmyBengal, if looks as if you might be the best prognosticator of us all when it comes to your hatred of Ratliff.

Although, it seems that the Bengals are still very high on him...

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=5448

Hobson says in this morning's article, "Oh, the Bengals like it. They must because Ratliff is still here even though at least one other team inquired about his services during the preseason. "

So they have turned down trade offers. Hmmm.

So just what exactly is going on?

Methinks that Marvin is just turning UP the heat on Keiwan.

In Marvin we trust.

[TJJackson]

I'd rather see them trading a WR to Minnesota or Philly.

We're far deeper at WR than anywhere else on the team, and WILL cut a **good** WR this year unless we work a trade.

[derekshank]

I really do believe they are holding on to Ratliff because they have no intention of keep Tory beyond this year. He's just too pricey for a guy who is quickly aging... and they don't want to have to use another draft pick on a CB, and spend another year breaking in a rookie to use as an important role player on defense.

Ratliff will be here as our nickle next year. I know some people here don't care for him... but it's not as if he got beat out by a bunch of scrubs. Tory and Deltha are very recent pro-bowlers, and Joseph is a 1st round draft pick. Ratliff will never be a shut-down corner, but he's more than capable as our eventual nickle back.

[HoosierCat]

I really do believe they are holding on to Ratliff because they have no intention of keep Tory beyond this year. He's just too pricey for a guy who is quickly aging... and they don't want to have to use another draft pick on a CB, and spend another year breaking in a rookie to use as an important role player on defense.

Ratliff will be here as our nickle next year. I know some people here don't care for him... but it's not as if he got beat out by a bunch of scrubs. Tory and Deltha are very recent pro-bowlers, and Joseph is a 1st round draft pick. Ratliff will never be a shut-down corner, but he's more than capable as our eventual nickle back.

Yeah, I can buy that.

[Tasher]

I really do believe they are holding on to Ratliff because they have no intention of keep Tory beyond this year. He's just too pricey for a guy who is quickly aging... and they don't want to have to use another draft pick on a CB, and spend another year breaking in a rookie to use as an important role player on defense.

Ratliff will be here as our nickle next year. I know some people here don't care for him... but it's not as if he got beat out by a bunch of scrubs. Tory and Deltha are very recent pro-bowlers, and Joseph is a 1st round draft pick. Ratliff will never be a shut-down corner, but he's more than capable as our eventual nickle back.

Yeah, I can buy that.

Can you say CB/S with the 2007 first round draft pick? I knew you could.

Ratliff might get the nickel job back, maybe.

[The Brew Man]

I also agree that they dont want to keep Tory after this year, I like our depth at DB though, I cant remember ever saying that...

[schweinhart]

Just can't picture Keiwan as the nickel of the future....Too slow for quick WRs and not strong enough for possession receivers or HB/TEs. Joseph will start at weakside corner next year, but I can see Keiwan going to weakside corner with Joseph kicked down into slot when the Bengals play nickel.

It's not like Keiwan is void of skills. He is just limited to quarter coverage in order to be effective IMO.

I wouldn't think much about a Keiwan trade either but the whole announcement of Joseph as the nickel and K2 as the dime seems completely uncharacteristic of Marvin. It really smacks as the go ahead for teams to open dialogue with Keiwan's agent because it sure sounds like he's not much in the Bengals plans this year.

[derekshank]

Just can't picture Keiwan as the nickel of the future....Too slow for quick WRs and not strong enough for possession receivers or HB/TEs. Joseph will start at weakside corner next year, but I can see Keiwan going to weakside corner with Joseph kicked down into slot when the Bengals play nickel.

It's not like Keiwan is void of skills. He is just limited to quarter coverage in order to be effective IMO.

I wouldn't think much about a Keiwan trade either but the whole announcement of Joseph as the nickel and K2 as the dime seems completely uncharacteristic of Marvin. It really smacks as the go ahead for teams to open dialogue with Keiwan's agent because it sure sounds like he's not much in the Bengals plans this year.

Ratliff may lack size... but he really is a sure tackler. This is why they weren't afraid to put him against the TE when TE's were too quick for our LB's last year.

Also... there aren't many teams out there with a 3rd wide-out that so quick and strong that Keiwan can't cover them. Sure, Keiwan doesn't have the speed and size to take on T.O. or Randy Moss man to man... but as the nickle he wouldn't have to. He'd be covering Patrick Crayton and Doug Gabriel. If he isn't capable of that... I'd agree with you, but I think that he is. He'll be fine.

[Tasher]

So if Keiwan sucks so badly, why is he drawing seemingly so much interest in trade, and WHY would the Bengals NOT accept the trade?

Something smells fishy.

[HoosierCat]

I'm sure the Bengals would trade Keiwan for the right offer (not that the same couldn't be said for a dozen or three other Bengals) but bottom line, it's hard for me to come upp with an offer that's both compelling and realistic.

The Bengalls don't have any glaring need at this point, except for the much-coveted "complete TE." But true CTEs are universally coveted players, and I don't see any team willing to part with one for Ratliff, even if as suggested the Bengals add Kwash to the mix. And on the draft pick front, I don't see any team willing to pony up more than a mid-day-2 selection (i.e. 5th or 6th round pick) for Ratliff at this point.

[CJBestInAFC]

I think a team will trade a lot higher pick than that for Ratliff. There were plays that Ratilff did get burned bad on, but teams will see the big play potential of Ratliff because of his two ints. in the preseason, which one went for six. I think the Bengals could get a third round draft pick for Ratliff.

[Spor_tees]

Ratliff when he was drafted was more of a stand in guy for a team that reached for a need. He isn't starting corner material. Atleast not on the Bengals with the talent ahead of him NOW. If the Bengals can trade him, they would have to either get a draft pick or TE. The Bengals are going to be cutting a quality player at every position this year except TE or QB.

Why don't the Bengals just fatten up Kelly Washington and move him to TE? He can catch they already know but maybe if they fatten him he could block too. Another thing they could do is go with only 2 QB's this year like some other teams do, to hold onto more young players.

They could sign Eric Meyer to the practice squad or some other young QB, and then stick with Palmer and Wright.

[Stripes]

Why don't the Bengals just fatten up Kelly Washington and move him to TE? He can catch they already know but maybe if they fatten him he could block too. Another thing they could do is go with only 2 QB's this year like some other teams do, to hold onto more young players.

K-dub would have to agree to the whole "fatten me up" thing, and I know I wouldn't if were him. The coaches are completely fine with the TE corps though, and don't see the same hole that fans see. Reggie Kelly is a great blocker, and that's all they want.

[Oldcat]

Well in terms of style Tab seems more Tight Endish than KW - see him running 15 yards with no helmet on the other day?

Even on KO returns he just picks a line and flys in a straight line down the field.

[Kazkal]

I really do believe they are holding on to Ratliff because they have no intention of keep Tory beyond this year.

I get that but if they want more out of their nickle corner this year why won't they next? I like rat but it just doesnt seem hes in the right system

[Stripes]

If Joseph moves on to take Tory's place at some point this year, I have to wonder what would happen at nickel or dime... Tory would probably play nickel and Ratliff wouldn't move, but that's a lot of slow in the slot.