Sapp Update

[shworge]

Just heard a quote from Sapp on Sporting News Radio, went something like this:

"We called the Bengals at 5:00 Friday even to tell them we accept the deal, and they said 'We are just bidding against ourselves, we need some time to think about this'... turns out they weren't the only ones bidding."

Mike Brown is a freaking idiot.

[chrishcovga]

According to Sapp, in his ESPN interview from his press conference , Sapp said, he was all but set on becoming a Bengal, but there were things they(Bengals) did towards the end that made me very uncomfortable. First we said we have a deal, then they said they wanted to do some additional tweaking, and that's when we said ,OK we'll get it done in the morning. Sapp said after that ,

-------(just to make Kirk Happy)..... that CINCINNATI PULLED IT'S OFFER FROM THE TABLE LATE FRIDAY NIGHT........!

...you mean ? we actually had the guy, and let him go..??? --read the bottom line please !

[Kirkendall]

Just heard a quote from Sapp on Sporting News Radio, went something like this:

"We called the Bengals at 5:00 Friday even to tell them we accept the deal, and they said 'We are just bidding against ourselves, we need some time to think about this'... turns out they weren't the only ones bidding."

Mike Brown is a freaking idiot.

If this is true, doesn't it prove that the past isn't quite past us yet? That maybe we're still in the final stages for the AOH?

[HoosierCat]

So espn was misinformed, no deal was imminent, nothing was on the table for Sapp...and then the raider came in and dropped a $37 million contract on him?

OK, I can live with that scenario. Now tell me, who got played, Mikey or Al Davis??

[Kirkendall]

I'll be first to believe that Mikey sat on a probable deal before I believe Al Davis got played. That dude doesn't look like he gets played..

[BengalszoneBilly]

I'll be first to believe that Mikey sat on a probable deal before I believe Al Davis got played. That dude doesn't look like he gets played..

C'mon guy's! Sapp's agent did his job to a "T"! Terrell Owen agent should look up Sapp's agent for remedial schooling. And both Mike AND Al got played. We were going to pay a little too much, but Al Davis comes in and get's played for ALOT too much. Sapp's agent deserves every cent of the cut he gets from this deal. He and Warren are both richer for it.

[jjakq27]

We are the ones who got played folks. You just don't pull a contract that's almost double the length and is double the money out of your back pocket. Maybe we did flinch and maybe we did want to tweak things the fact is that Rosenhaus was working behind our backs and probably even Sapp's back while he was schmoozing us up, just in case things fell through. What would have happened if Mikey, Katie and Troy would have called them at 5pm??? Would they have signed that contract? Would they have walked away from the Raiders offer?? I doubt it.

[HoosierCat]

We are the ones who got played folks. You just don't pull a contract that's almost double the length and is double the money out of your back pocket. Maybe we did flinch and maybe we did want to tweak things the fact is that Rosenhaus was working behind our backs and probably even Sapp's back while he was schmoozing us up, just in case things fell through.

I don't buy it. Sapp's contract is nothing complicated. All they did was match our signing bonus ($4 million or so) and guarantee the money we would have paid Sapp in the first two years (which ought to have been in the $3 million range). Then they ladeled 2.8 million on top of that and voila!, instant deal. The Raider deal clearly uses our offer as a base.

The contract is all garbage after year 2; they could have called it a 7-year, $500 bazillion deal. Sapp's salary is about $4 million in year 3, his cap hit about 4.6 million; the cap hit to cut him then will be about $2.8 million. Buh-bye. So it's a win for Sapp, too, because at 33 he can look for one more sucka.

[Kirkendall]

Alright alright alright. If we are comparing, and that wasn't the original intent, then I'd have to suggest that Al Davis was fooled. Look at the contract. Then again, I'm sure Mike Brown could have arranged a deal to help financially both the Bengals and Sapp. Then again, that's expecting a little much, you know, MIke Brown actually doing something proactive. HA!

[halp]

some times the best deal is the one that doesn't get done. regardless of how it went down, i think we're better off. had sapp wanted to do this deal with us it would have happened before friday. he played it to the hilt, and wal-la, bingo he scores and wins. i really don't think he wanted to be here. so therefore WE WIN!!!!

[Kirkendall]

some times the best deal is the one that doesn't get done. regardless of how it went down, i think we're better off. had sapp wanted to do this deal with us it would have happened before friday. he played it to the hilt, and wal-la, bingo he scores and wins. i really don't think he wanted to be here. so therefore WE WIN!!!!

Considering how the Bengals never get deals done; I guess that's a good thing. But when does it all change? When do we get a deal done that has a FA that's worth $5 and a snickers bar? Are we going to rely on the draft like 13 years previously? Something needs to change.

[halp]

kirk....it sure would be nice to see a few real free agents sign here. i agree, have to hope there is more on the horizon for us. don't see any block buster trade, but hope the draft is good. and that's not a whole hell of alot to look forward to at this point, is it?

[Kirkendall]

Sure it would be nice. But my complaint is that if Marvin has such an inspirational aspect in the game today, why don't we have more players demanding to play in Cincy. Even more so, why hasn't he created a more stable system in regards to Dillon. Even more so, why hasn't Marvin created a stir for players that don't have a job right now? I've thought that Sapp would have came to Cincy if Marvin would have helped him believe the ways of the right, but either Marvin lacks staying power or Mike is to blame.

[kevnz]

But when does it all change? When do we get a deal done that has a FA that's worth $5 and a snickers bar? Are we going to rely on the draft like 13 years previously? Something needs to change.

Yeah, but the difference now is that it looks like the Bengals actually know what they are doing on draft day...I know, they could blow it this year, but I don't believe so....Another draft or two like this past year and we have a very solid core of young players....Just so long as we don't have another 2k2 draft, no more Akili's Kijana's and Hawkins and we'll be alright. This team has to become an attractive target for players, otherwise, it's either use the Bengals as bate for a better deal, or overpay, and neither of those options are very nice...I just don't want to see the Bengals overpay for someone's past production and cost the team a young player with an upside....

[HoosierCat]

[Rant]

I AM SO SICK OF EXCUSES !!!!

The $7 million guarantee he got in Oakland was more than he would have got here, but maybe by only $1 million. The key seemed to be Oakland’s $19 million over four years compared to Cincinnati’s $16 million.

The Bengals just don’t want to deal with the dead money if he only gave them two to three years. A disappointment, but we have come to find out this is a franchise that won’t trade a huge feel-good move for salary cap hell, and while that may hurt now, maybe it’s not all that unreasonable.

In the past, the Bengals have been able to front-load their contracts with a relatively light bonus and keep the length commensurate with the player’s career expectancy because they had so much room under the salary cap. That meant they could jack the first-year compensation with a big salary, but with virtually no room nowadays, they don’t have that flexibility.

That's from "Royal We" Hobson's latest daily letter, excusing the Bengals from screwing up the Sapp deal. Two points: First THERE IS NO @#%&ING DEAD MONEY!!! The Raiders deal loads all but $2.8 million of the guaranteed money into the first two years; if they cut him in year three they gain cap space vs. keeping him! Second, you would have had the space to do a front-loaded deal IF THE FRONT OFFICE HAD DONE ITS DAMNED JOB, dealt CD for whatever you could get and either restructured or cut Kinta in the TWO MONTHS prior to free agency! AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

[/rant]

[kevnz]

Sure it would be nice. But my complaint is that if Marvin has such an inspirational aspect in the game today, why don't we have more players demanding to play in Cincy. Even more so, why hasn't he created a more stable system in regards to Dillon. Even more so, why hasn't Marvin created a stir for players that don't have a job right now? I've thought that Sapp would have came to Cincy if Marvin would have helped him believe the ways of the right, but either Marvin lacks staying power or Mike is to blame.

Marvin isnt interested in bringing in heaps of free agents...He wants to build a team, not rent one...He's a Bengal for at least four more years, barring him getting sacked(not gonna happen, unless he royally screws up, and probably not even then...) He's stuck here...Do you think if he wasn't getting what he wanted he would shut up about it? Come on now, he'd raise holy hell...He wants to be a head coach and do you think he'd let Mike Brown screw up his image, his shot at continuing to be a head coach in the NFL? No way. I'm telling you, if Mikey really was the reason we haven't signed hardly any free agents, then I'd say you'd already be hearing rumors of Marvin wanting out....But what's that???? Not a peep....Trust the man, he damn near turned a heaping pile of s**t (the 2k2 Bengals into a pot of gold in only one year) Give him some credit, and some slack....

And we're all gonna be laughing about this when the Bengals make the playoffs this coming season.

[cover2]

Marvin has got to be shaking his head at the way these past two deals went down. Mikey boy blinked on the Sapp deal and is he really going to get a 2nd round pick ----from anybody for CD. What the hell

is that all about? What the hell are we going to do with him (CD)?

What the f##k is he waiting for. Curious what the hell does Marvin control down there???------not as much as we were led to believe.

Al showed him what playing poker is all about and Mikey got thumped.

We need free agents and the draft.....but not all from the draft.

[kevnz]

Marvin has got to be shaking his head at the way these past two deals went down. Mikey boy blinked on the Sapp deal and is he really going to get a 2nd round pick ----from anybody for CD. What the hell

is that all about? What the hell are we going to do with him (CD)?

What the f##k is he waiting for. Curious what the hell does Marvin control down there???------not as much as we were led to believe.

Al showed him what playing poker is all about and Mikey got thumped.

We need free agents and the draft.....but not all from the draft.

How many times do I gotta say it? You use the draft to build a team...Not free agency, otherwise the Redskins would have won the last 3 super bowls....Get over it! You don't make the big splash in free agency and then win in January....How many big name free agents did the Panthers get last year? One?(and I really wouldn't call Stephen Davis a big name) How many big names did the Patriots get last year? none!

You know, between the Super Bowl and the start of free agency all anyone heard about was emulating that kind of approach this offseason, get some role players, draft well and whammo....But now some teams have said to hell with it way overpayed some players (all those corners everybody wanted, and a certain DT) and everybody here feels we've been jobbed....There is no reason to break the bank and get rid of some youthful players with an upside by over paying players for past accomplishments, or the position they play is a "need" position...

I understand everybody that's a Bengal's fan wants them to win, hell we deserve to see them win...But to be here slagging off the ownership(some deserved, some not) just cause they didn't overpay for someone.

As for All playing poker? If the Bengals pulled the offer (and that's what it's looking like) I'd say Al got screwed and paid more than he should have....

[wookie]

Wait a minute...Lewis is not to blame for free agents going to other teams. He did a great job in his first year but he is still the head coach of the Bengals and it takes more than 1 great season to lure free agents to Cincy. Besides, no matter how much a player respects a coach he still has to trust in the franchise and he has to see the right amount of $$$ before he signs. In a few years when Marvin has proven he is taking the Bengals in the right direction you'll see players wanting to come to Cincy 1st, but we're not there yet.

On another note the preseason schedule is out.

Tampa Bay

New England

Atlanta

Indianapolis

[cover2]

Could be right abt Al over paying would not be the first time. The Raiders were in the Super Bowl just two years ago and now are reloading to make another run and we are looking for a 2nd rounder for CD.

I do remember Green Bay when they signed White. It changed everything and it was just what the doctor ordered......the right move at the right time. Everybody suddenly wanted to play in that cold-ass place.....

[chrishcovga]

The only real way Cincy' screwed the deal with Sapp, was not bringing him and his agent out here thursday or Friday morning. 2 first class seats , and the promise of a 16 million dollar 4 year deal good for as long as he's in Cincy', but the deal comes off the table if he left without signing..

WE know Marvin's not to blame, Marion, and Taylor went on record March 3rd saying that they wanted to play for Marvin Lewis, and that Cincy' was their first choice, however I think MB and CO. used that against them ,thinking that those players would accept deals below market value.

--The Dillon deal could have been made.. *** Granted I want at least a 2nd rounder for Dillon as well, but the # 67 pick could still bring in a good player.And we could have negotiated on a conditional pick in '05 that I'm sure Al Davis would have considered.

--Cincy' needs to learn to play the game. We know that Katie and her husband are the ones negotiating the deals, but it all hinges on what Mike Brown decides. Marvin says get me this guy and that guy, and it goes wrong at the negotiating table or over the phone.

--Al Davis overpaid for a player that he shouldn't have had an opportunity to get if we had played our cards right !

[kevnz]

Could be right abt Al over paying would not be the first time. The Raiders were in the Super Bowl just two years ago and now are reloading to make another run and we are looking for a 2nd rounder for CD.

I do remember Green Bay when they signed White. It changed everything and it was just what the doctor ordered......the right move at the right time. Everybody suddenly wanted to play in that cold-ass place.....

Super Bowl two years ago, 2nd pick in the draft this past year....That's a big ass drop, and I don't think they are reloading, just buying up more aged players....it's gonna hurt them.

Yeah I know the White signing helped Green Bay, but it was the Farve trade that made them, cause they had a QB that could win games, and Bret Farve won more games for GB then Reggie ever did, and that was the start of the Free Agency Era....Players are mercenaries for the most part, they will go wherever the bucks are. Some players will go to some places cause of the media attention, and that hurts every small market team in the country...

[HoosierCat]

Here's the alleged "real story" from the gossipmongers at profootballtalk.com...

EXCLUSIVE SAPP NEGOTIATION DETAILS

In the wake of the stunning, last-minute courtship of defensive tackle Warren Sapp by the Raiders, we've gathered some exclusive details regarding the manner inwhich the deal went down -- and regarding the Raiders' plans for the veteran defensive tackle.

First, we've confirmed that the Raiders literally came out of the blue with on Friday night, after Sapp had decided that he'd focus on getting a deal done with theBengals.

We're told that, after Raiders owner Al Davis became aware of Internet reports linking Sapp to Cincy, Mike Lombardi called Sapp's agent, Drew Rosenhaus, and Lombardi expressed a strong interest in getting something done.

It was the Raiders' first serious overture to Rosenhaus, we're told, primarily because Davis wanted to be sure that Tampa Bay was out of the picture before the Raiders entered the bidding.  Davis's biggest fear was that he'd spark a premature bidding war with the Buccaneers, given the recent history of acrimony between the two franchises.

Sure, the Bucs didn't want Sapp back.  But if they thought the Raiders wanted him, G.M. Bruce Allen and coach Jon Gruden might have changed their tunes.

At the time the Raiders got involved, the Bengals had upped their offer to Sapp from four years and $16 million to roughly $18.5 million over the same time period.  Once the Raiders started putting money on the table, however, the Bengals essentially stepped aside.

Also in the mix at the end were the Chiefs and the Ravens.  The Chiefs previously had offered a package worth $3 million annually for Sapp, and they'd fallen out of the picture as Sapp focused on the Bengals.  But with the Chiefs' arch-rivals upping the ante, it made sense for Sapp and Rosenhaus to see if K.C. was willing to outbid Davis.  Possibly fearing that they'd ultimately lose out on a showdown with the Raiders, the Chiefs backed off.

So did the Ravens, even though we hear that linebacker Ray Lewis got owner Steve Bisciotti directly involved in the discussions on Friday night and/or Saturday morning.  Lewis, a former teammate of Sapp's at the University of Miami, had been pushing hard for the Ravens to reel in the big fella -- and it'll be interesting to see if Lewis harbors any resentment as a result of the team's failure to make it happen.

We're hearing that Sapp's contract with the Raiders will pay him more over the first four seasons that will contracts signed by other defensive tackles, including Anthony McFarland, Robaire Smith, Cornelius Griffin, and Rod Coleman.

Also, although Sapp's contract has a seven-year term for the purposes of managing the cap consequences of the signing bonus, the deal contains a clause that allows him to retire after four years, with no requirement that any portion of the signing bonus be repaid.  

And in Oakland, Sapp's career could extend beyond four more seasons.  With defensive tackles Ted Washington and John Parrella already on the roster, Sapp won't have to do a lot of run stuffing.  In fact, there's already talk of Sapp possibly sliding to the outside from time to time, lining up as a defensive end.

Sounds unusually believeable for the NFL gossip kings...

[cover2]

The Raiders are going to have one hell of a D line. Fact of the matter

concerning Sapp......doesn't matter what Al over paid, left on the table or what, they got him and we don't and I think the Raiders are going to be in the thick of things. The Bengals negotiate like a bunch of bean counters measuing every move in coffee spoons.

Every now and then you have to go for it on 4th down. Something the Bengals never do off the field and just about every other NFL team does.

[HoosierCat]

Every now and then you have to go for it on 4th down. Something the Bengals never do off the field and just about every other NFL team does.

Yup. Fact o' the matter is, every "big name" FA -- and even many "no name" guys at hard-to-fill positions like CB -- gets overpaid. It's basic supply-and-demand at work: scarcity and need drive up the price. I'm not saying they need to throw huge money at every FA who calls (like, for example, DC), but here and there you have to step up and pay the piper. Instead, every time the bidding gets hot, the Bengals walk away. And then they offer hollow excuses about rookie pools and cap space and QB incentives -- all while other teams with the same stuff and less cap space do what they say is impossible. In short, they assume their fans are fools, which really honks me off.

PS I agree with you on the Raiders' d-line. Assuming both Ted W. and Sapp stay healthy (a fairly sizeable assumption) that's a tough team to counter. You can't double-team both, and either is capable of turning your QB to mush. Oakland's problems are all on offense, where they don't have jack at WR, TE, or RB, and a QB coming off surgery.