Frostee Rucker Vs. Eric Henderson

[Kazkal]

So drafting frostee and signing Eric Henderson show that were staying 4-3?

Also i'm sure will keep both of them probbley put eric on IR because we need em both if we lose justin next year

[schweinhart]

IR for Henderson may have been part of the deal...Don't know the severity of what he's looking at. But he should have been one of the more desirable UDFAs like Wilkerson last year with an injury and even more so because his can't be as short-term debilitating as Wilkerson's was.

My guess would be he'll be ready to compete, though. He's got too much to lose.

4-3 wise, can't see Rucker being an OLB in a 3-4. Not enough there to work with it would seem. The Nicholson signing is actually more interesting to me. Nicholson would be great at strongside covering dumpoffs in passing situations so Pollack can line up on the edge whenever the Bengals use a 4-3 on passing downs instead of a 3-man front.

[HairOnFire]

By one source, Frostee Rucker's 10 yard dash time was tied for 2nd worst among the 23 listed DEs who ran at the combine.

Which is exactly what you'd expect from a prospect whose stance and poor technique guaranteed a poor start. The rub is that Rucker's poor 40-yard time was nearly identical to that of 1st round pick Tamba Hali.

If you're Marvin Lewis and you want to measure a players burst you do so by watching game film, not by propping up a performance in a track event that the prospect shows miserable technique in.

[kingwilly]

go frostee.

[scott91575]

Honestly, if Frostee becomes a good regular I will never doubt Marvin and companies pics ever again. By good I mean a starter, but better than Geathers. Geathers is serviceable, not good.

Henderson is interesting and worth a look.

[schweinhart]

By one source, Frostee Rucker's 10 yard dash time was tied for 2nd worst among the 23 listed DEs who ran at the combine.

Which is exactly what you'd expect from a prospect whose stance and poor technique guaranteed a poor start. The rub is that Rucker's poor 40-yard time was nearly identical to that of 1st round pick Tamba Hali.

If you're Marvin Lewis and you want to measure a players burst you do so by watching game film, not by propping up a performance in a track event that the prospect shows miserable technique in.

No doubt the game film and the physique factor in as the most important aspects of a players abilities, but as for the guy's techinque to run a 40, what is he -- a fugtardo? I mean how hard is it to practice this if it's important? Did his agent tell him, "Don't worry about any kind of pre-combine training because you're a fugtard who won't figure out how to assume the right stance or take off into a run anyway?"

But I don't think they time the 10 yard off the 40. I'm pretty sure it's done separately. Maybe the same deal...too fugtarded to figure out how to run in a straight line.

[HairOnFire]

No doubt the game film and the physique factor in as the most important aspects of a players abilities, but as for the guy's techinque to run a 40, what is he -- a fugtardo? I mean how hard is it to practice this if it's important? Did his agent tell him, "Don't worry about any kind of pre-combine training because you're a fugtard who won't figure out how to assume the right stance or take off into a run anyway?"

But I don't think they time the 10 yard off the 40. I'm pretty sure it's done separately. Maybe the same deal...too fugtarded to figure out how to run in a straight line.

First, why is it important? The guy is a football player, not a track star, and his time in the 40-yard dash is important exactly once in his lifetime. That being, during the draft process. After the actual draft all talk about Rucker's 40-yard time should be flushed as quickly as David Klingler's run-and-shoot passing stats. It's never important again.

And again, Rucker attended a college program where things like to 40-yard dash were considered so unimportant that even a RB could go 3 years without ever having a recorded time. A freaking running back! So how much time do you think was devoted to teach a DE how to explode out of a sprinters stance? None, right? After all, you just admitted that the 40 yard time for DE's, good or bad, wasn't worth getting gummed up about. Maybe Rucker knows that. Maybe he has an idea of what is really important for a football player to do if he wants to improve or solidify his draft status....which by all accounts he did.

Regardless of the length of any race Rucker's poor technique at the start is going to show up, and that's even more true the shorter the race is....although I think they do take the 10 yard timings from the 40. At least that's what the Bengals stated when they pimped Curtis Keaton's blistering 10 and 20 yard times several years ago. Not that Keaton's record breaking speed helped him, the Bengals, or the NFL team they later dumped him off on. As it turns out his track times were a curiosity. Something he can tell his grandkids about.

And finally, if you want to talk about a player being fugtarded start with fan favorite Eric Henderson. How hard is it to condition yourself so you aren't CONSTANTLY getting dinged? Weren't CB's with serious knee and hip injuries drafted really high in this last draft? So why did Henderson's not so serious toe injury keep him from being drafted at all? Why did every team, including the Bengals, determine that Henderson wasn't worthy of even a late round draft pick?

[FreeChrisHenry]

Haters.

Rucker flashed pretty good pass rush skills last season for the Bruins in limited playing time, and was expected to make more of an impact than he actually did this season. Sort of the same thing that happened to Geathers when he was made a full time player. But Rucker is actually an above average run defender who plays with a great base for a DE, and boasts better than average lower body strength. In my opinion he's always been a little too soft above the waist and will need to add muscle to make it as a pro, but if he applies himself he could carry 275 or 280 pounds. Plus, he has always played well in big games.

There are no haters here. I think everyone was just confused. You see, Rucker looked pretty average playing for the USC Trojans last year. We had no idea he flashed pretty good pass rush skills for the UCLA Bruins.

Huge props. You not only managed to ignore everything of substance that I wrote, but you pointed out where I mistakenly named the wrong local school Rucker played for. It's going to be great having a guy like you around.

With all due respect, f**k you.

Thanks for the welcome.

The "substance" in your draft analysis is usually wrong. I wouldn't waste the time. I just thought I'd point out a pretty obvious mistake. I'm glad it pissed you off.

[HoosierCat]

First, why is it important?

Well, there are several million reasons, as you point out in your very next sentence:

...his time in the 40-yard dash is important exactly once in his lifetime. That being, during the draft process.

Has he learned the proper stance -- and let's face it, we aren't talking rocket science here, and he's had months since the college ball season ended -- he may have gone much earlier, and thus be on the verge of being much richer. So the question of what was going on inside his and/or his agent's head is a valid one. Hopefully, it doesn't forbode a guy who has to be convinced of the importance of technique before he can be taught to improve it.

[schweinhart]

I hear you hear on the 40 and agree --- once again --- that it is of no value for a DE. However, the 10 yard dash should be an indicator of burst, albeit a limited indicator. The short shuttle actually should indicate more. But if Frostee's bufar probs at the starting line are really true, then it would also impact his 10 yard dash because the 10's and 20's are split off the 40 and not run separately.

And as far Curtis Keaton.....not everday day you get to hear that name.

The more pointy point of this thread resides in your summary below:

And finally, if you want to talk about a player being fugtarded start with fan favorite Eric Henderson. How hard is it to condition yourself so you aren't CONSTANTLY getting dinged? Weren't CB's with serious knee and hip injuries drafted really high in this last draft? So why did Henderson's not so serious toe injury keep him from being drafted at all? Why did every team, including the Bengals, determine that Henderson wasn't worthy of even a late round draft pick?

That's exactly true -- why couldn't Henderson get drafted when guys like Cromartie and Allen went as high as they did. The simple answer is that Henderson is nowhere near that good. Healthy or not, he shouldn't ever have the kind of impact those players could have. If he had come in completely healthy pre-combine, he's still a mid round pick at best in part because of injury history but also maybe because of questions about his size and body type. Not that Henderson was a tweener, but frame wise, Frostee is a bigger dude and so are 4-3 DEs like Adeyanju and Edwards who were snagged in the 4th. These guys get the nod vs. the run when it comes to jamming inside and hand-to-hand in trash. Frame and size trumps for a run defending DE. Contain is a different issue, but as long as the run defending DE is at strongside, there's less holes for a RB to punch through since the SSLB is more likely to stay home or be nearby in close area pass coverage of outlet receivers.

Pass rush is the one area where Henderson looked like he can excel at the next level...at least that's how it looked when he was pitted against the likes of 1st, 2nd and 3rd left tackle draft picks this year. But obviously this pass rush abaility was not enough in the minds of teams to get himself drafted. He'll have to prove he can do it and I'm glad to see that the Bengals are the team that will give him this shot because I think he can show more on the pass rush than the rest of the teams DEs -- except for the speed rush of Pollack.

[HairOnFire]

The "substance" in your draft analysis is usually wrong. I wouldn't waste the time. I just thought I'd point out a pretty obvious mistake. I'm glad it pissed you off.

I'm sure at some point you and I will have a true conversation, but that day won't come until you say something worthwhile. Anything will do. And no, I don't think we're quite there when all you've done to date is write a response built entirely on correcting a single word in one of my posts. Finally, I'm not the least bit surprised that your latest post says just as little as your first.

So again, f**k you.

[HairOnFire]

Has he learned the proper stance -- and let's face it, we aren't talking rocket science here, and he's had months since the college ball season ended -- he may have gone much earlier, and thus be on the verge of being much richer. So the question of what was going on inside his and/or his agent's head is a valid one.

Well that's rich. (Pun intended.) We've now gone from Bengal fans whining about Rucker being taken far too early in the draft to Bengal fans questioning his intelligence because he didn't do the things needed to be considered even earlier. Silly rants aside, doesn't it seem obvious that Frostee Rucker knew exactly how to impress the NFL types in the ways they felt were most important?

People, unbunch your panties and give this kid a chance. Come to grips with the fact that 32 teams determined that Ko Simpson was a fugtard, Gabe Watson was a lazy bastidge, and Rod Wright was a garden slug. Who cares if the Bengals didn't draft the player you thought was the pretty girl with the curl?

Throw your draft guides away, and get your minds right.

[HairOnFire]

That's exactly true -- why couldn't Henderson get drafted when guys like Cromartie and Allen went as high as they did. The simple answer is that Henderson is nowhere near that good. Healthy or not, he shouldn't ever have the kind of impact those players could have. If he had come in completely healthy pre-combine, he's still a mid round pick at best in part because of injury history but also maybe because of questions about his size and body type. Not that Henderson was a tweener, but frame wise, Frostee is a bigger dude and so are 4-3 DEs like Adeyanju and Edwards who were snagged in the 4th. These guys get the nod vs. the run when it comes to jamming inside and hand-to-hand in trash. Frame and size trumps for a run defending DE. Contain is a different issue, but as long as the run defending DE is at strongside, there's less holes for a RB to punch through since the SSLB is more likely to stay home or be nearby in close area pass coverage of outlet receivers.

Dead on, and about freaking time. People can bark all they want and make endless silly comparisons between Rucker and Henderson but the simple truth is right there for everyone to see. The draft is a beauty contest where potential and upside counts for just as much as past production on a lower level of competition. And on that score Frostee Rucker was rightly considered to be a far better pro prospect, and a better fit, than any of the over-hyped propsects that were passed over.

Don't like it? Tough. Hard cheese. Get over it....or stay stupid.

[HoosierCat]

Silly rants aside, doesn't it seem obvious that Frostee Rucker knew exactly how to impress the NFL types in the ways they felt were most important?

Well, it seems just as "obvious" as this sentence...

Silly rants aside, doesn't it seem obvious that Caleb Miller knew exactly how to impress the NFL types in the ways they felt were most important?

...or this sentence...

Silly rants aside, doesn't it seem obvious that Kelly Washington knew exactly how to impress the NFL types in the ways they felt were most important?

...or this sentence...

Silly rants aside, doesn't it seem obvious that Matt Schobel knew exactly how to impress the NFL types in the ways they felt were most important?

...or this sentence...

Silly rants aside, doesn't it seem obvious that Sean Brewer knew exactly how to impress the NFL types in the ways they felt were most important?

...or this sentence...

Silly rants aside, doesn't it seem obvious that Ron Dugans knew exactly how to impress the NFL types in the ways they felt were most important?

I could go on, but looking at the Bengals' history is the 3rd round of the draft is depressing even me. But the bottom line is that those draft guides you urge be thrown away have had an annoying tendency to be right. So forgive me if I don't share your love for our new Non Dairy Dessert. Nothing anyone has said, including you, has me believing he'll be anything more than another late day 1 flop.

[schweinhart]

That's exactly true -- why couldn't Henderson get drafted when guys like Cromartie and Allen went as high as they did. The simple answer is that Henderson is nowhere near that good. Healthy or not, he shouldn't ever have the kind of impact those players could have. If he had come in completely healthy pre-combine, he's still a mid round pick at best in part because of injury history but also maybe because of questions about his size and body type. Not that Henderson was a tweener, but frame wise, Frostee is a bigger dude and so are 4-3 DEs like Adeyanju and Edwards who were snagged in the 4th. These guys get the nod vs. the run when it comes to jamming inside and hand-to-hand in trash. Frame and size trumps for a run defending DE. Contain is a different issue, but as long as the run defending DE is at strongside, there's less holes for a RB to punch through since the SSLB is more likely to stay home or be nearby in close area pass coverage of outlet receivers.

Dead on, and about freaking time. People can bark all they want and make endless silly comparisons between Rucker and Henderson but the simple truth is right there for everyone to see. The draft is a beauty contest where potential and upside counts for just as much as past production on a lower level of competition. And on that score Frostee Rucker was rightly considered to be a far better pro prospect, and a better fit, than any of the over-hyped propsects that were passed over.

Don't like it? Tough. Hard cheese. Get over it....or stay stupid.

Not quite so simple Hair. In no way should Frostee Rucker be considered a better pro prospect of the type that Eric Henderson is at the position of weakside DE. Aside from your glowing treatise about Rucker's awkward approach to running a straight line, there are other measurables -- in fact all the measurables -- that pretty much confirm what his game showings show -- Rucker was among the slowest, least reactive athlete of the DEs tested at the combine. He's a real candidate to replace Mathias Askew as Mr. Inactive for the next 2 years and probably never a viable option at RDE. But overdrafting him may get the most out of him.

The fact is that Rucker is a different type of prospect at a different position. In the Bengals case, that's a replacement for Duane Clemons and as such will have similar warts. That's great that the Bengals picked a DE in the 3rd they think will approximate Duane. Had they prioritized the weakside position and pass rushing skills against better pass blocking left tackles, then we might have seen Mark Anderson instead (especially if there was any real intent to switch to a 3-4 base).

Now I'm not sure how Rucker's production against a lower level of comeptition than Henderson's works in Rucker's favor. I would think the simple truth that is there for everyone to see is how Henderson fared against a much, much higher level of competition than the likes of Ed Blanton....say D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Marcus McNeil and Eric Winston. Point blank, Henderson is a solid enough of a weakside DE prospect that he can be expected to seriously compete for a starting position FOR THE BENGALS if he's healthy and given the shot.

[HairOnFire]

I could go on, but looking at the Bengals' history is the 3rd round of the draft is depressing even me. But the bottom line is that those draft guides you urge be thrown away have had an annoying tendency to be right. So forgive me if I don't share your love for our new Non Dairy Dessert. Nothing anyone has said, including you, has me believing he'll be anything more than another late day 1 flop.

Whadda ya mean it's depressing even you? You're always sorta depressed. In fact, you're the first guy to look for the dark lining to every cloud. Or wasn't that you who wrote about possible holdouts long before my draft buzz had worn off?

BTW, which draft guide had the annoying tendency to be right about this draft? Which pre-draft value list accurately predicted the way the draft played out? I'd love to see your favorite....if for no other reason than to see if I couldn't poke holes in it from start to finish.

Last, you suggested my avatar and I use it because you and others said it fit me perfectly. Well fair is fair. Go find yourself a picture of that cursed dude from the Flintstones who always had a rain cloud over his head. I think his name was Shleprock. Enjoy.

[HairOnFire]

Not quite so simple Hair. In no way should Frostee Rucker be considered a better pro prospect of the type that Eric Henderson is at the position of weakside DE.

Really? And what facts can you point to that back your opinion up? Did the Bengals show a greater commitment to Rucker or Henderson? Will they offer an undrafted FA a comparable contract as a 3rd round draft pick? Will they agree to pay him as much? Will they offer a contract of comparable length? And if the answer to any of these questions is no, and I think it will be in every example, then it's fair to say that the Bengals consider Rucker to be the better prospect.

[WretchedOne]

It's not Eric's fault that he got injured and dropped. We were not the only team to pass on him, 31 other team passed as well.

The guy HAS more talent that Rucker. PERIOD. Look up the two's stats and see for youself, Eric DOMINATED more than Rucker and Eric missed a number of games due to injury. And he didn't dominate against the weak part of his schedule, he was injured during the games where he could have easily inflated his stats.

This guys was injured, came back, THEN produced against some top OTs.

If Eric had been heathly for those 7-8 games, Ruckers stats would be even more LAUGHABLE when compared to Eric's.

If Eric can thicken up his legs, schewinart IS RIGHT. Eric would EASILY be able to beat out Geathers for RDE...Easily....

[Stripes]

It's not Eric's fault that he got injured and dropped. We were not the only team to pass on him, 31 other team passed as well.

The guy HAS more talent that Rucker. PERIOD. Look up the two's stats and see for youself, Eric DOMINATED more than Rucker and Eric missed a number of games due to injury. And he didn't dominate against the weak part of his schedule, he was injured during the games where he could have easily inflated his stats.

This guys was injured, came back, THEN produced against some top OTs.

If Eric had been heathly for those 7-8 games, Ruckers stats would be even more LAUGHABLE when compared to Eric's.

If Eric can thicken up his legs, schewinart IS RIGHT. Eric would EASILY be able to beat out Geathers for RDE...Easily....

There's a reason Frostee was drafted on the first day and Eric wasn't drafted at all. Quite frankly, if everything you've said were as obvious as you say, he'd have been a top 15 pick, regardless of injury.

Stats? This is the NFL now. Both players are blank. We'll see which one goes anywhere first.

[HairOnFire]

We were not the only team to pass on him, 31 other team passed as well.

Exactly. I was beginning to think you guys didn't understand.

Everybody passed on him...for 7 full rounds.

Meanwhile, Rucker managed to get drafted, and in the process he pissed off every Ko Simpson, Gabe Watson, and Eric Henderson fan on this board.

And you're all still very mad.

Very mad indeed.

I get it.

It's quite impressive.

But oddly enough I no longer care.

BTW, I hear the Bengals gave Henderson his new jersey number.

It's 312.

[Whur CHad At?]

It's not Eric's fault that he got injured and dropped. We were not the only team to pass on him, 31 other team passed as well.

The guy HAS more talent that Rucker. PERIOD. Look up the two's stats and see for youself, Eric DOMINATED more than Rucker and Eric missed a number of games due to injury. And he didn't dominate against the weak part of his schedule, he was injured during the games where he could have easily inflated his stats.

This guys was injured, came back, THEN produced against some top OTs.

If Eric had been heathly for those 7-8 games, Ruckers stats would be even more LAUGHABLE when compared to Eric's.

If Eric can thicken up his legs, schewinart IS RIGHT. Eric would EASILY be able to beat out Geathers for RDE...Easily....

Wretched Give it up! If Eris was so f**king good, why didnt he at least get drafted?! I watched Frostee play in the Rose Bowl, and he had a hell of a game. So stop acting like he isnt s**t, becuase he is THE s**t, and has a ton of talent and ton of potential to become something special. Eric Henderson will be low on the depth chart, and will prob. see limited action, then prob. waived. He is all right, but he is no f**king Julius Peppers like you make him out to be. Give me a Frostee, some one who stays healthy and produces.

[Dadraftnick]

As for Frostee's 40 time-- the reason that they did not carry his drill on TV is simply because he was not one top tier DE's he was not rated to be in the top 4 rounds of the draft.

The excuse of Frostee's 40 time being bad because he is not a track guy is a complete joke!

How many DE's with exception of Manny Lawson are even fast enough to be on a track team,even in high school?

Pretty much none.Not even a starter in the excuse dept.

As for the importance of the 40 time the guy with the best 40 time or the 10 yd dash time is not automatically going to be the best football player.

The thing with 40 yd dash time is you look for a window for example you a CB with under 4.55 or 4.60 DE's you want a 40 under 4.8 of 4.9

The thing that puts me off Rucker more than his 40 time, even though he is slow, is his production- 6 sacks is pedestrian.It sucks! I would feel better about him if he had an injury that was slowing him down but this was him at his best .

I have followed the draft since before they had it on TV and 99% of the time if a guy does not have 10 or 12 sacks against the also rans he is not going to get them against the 350 lb moutains like Ogden Willie Anderson ect. in the pros.

Some of you guys are such homers that you cant admit when the organization screws up or you dont know the difference.

Well I am a hommer too but to all of you that think Rucker was such a great pick how manny of you said before the draft started " I dont care who we get in the draft as long as we get that Frostee Rucker, HE HAD 6 SACKS LAST YEAR AT USC ISN'T THAT INPRESSIVE"?

Even if you thought that there was some talent in Rucker no one thought he was a 3rd round guy.

[Stripes]

Some of you guys are such homers that you cant admit when the organization screws up or you dont know the difference.

If having more faith in Marvin Lewis and his scouts than myself or other message board posters in regards to finding NFL talent makes me a homer, then a homer I shall be.

Even if you thought that there was some talent in Rucker no one thought he was a 3rd round guy.

Marvin Lewis did. That fact alone renders everything else you've said uselss in my mind. Will he be a good pick for sure? I don't know, and neither does anybody else.

[TJJackson]

After further review: I still hate the pick of Rucker, but also think that barring a free agent pickup (from a June 1 or training camp cut) we are thin enough at the DE position that Rucker will probably make the team. If any of the 3 veterans is injured before the season starts, call it a lock, if only by default.

I still think - and again, injury is the big x factor - Henderson will by far be the better pro. As will a number of other DLs we could have had at that same pick starting with but not limited to Barry Cofield, who was taken with the very next pick.

[kingwilly]

Since Askew has never developed, and will likley be cut, they needed a new, under-achieving project player for the defense...thus we have Frostee....