Return of the Poverty-Stricken, Cap-Strapped Bengals

[HoosierCat]

I just knew it wouldn't take good ol' Geoff long...from his letter column today...

With the problems involving Chris Henry, do you think there is any chance that the Bengals could go after Antwaan Randel El? He could solve the punt return problem as well as a third wide receiver.

Chad, Galloway, Ohio

CHAD: They may be better off signing “El,” as the backup quarterback if Jon Kitna leaves. Given that they’ve already got millions invested in their two top wide receivers and they need to spend on defense, the short answer is, “None.”

Figure the Bengals have about $4 million to spend in free agency if the published figures culled from a variety of sources are accurate. After spending all their cap money in ’05, the Bengals are reportedly about $10 million under the ’06 salary cap. But about $6 million of it is going to be taken up by roughly $3.5 million in draft picks and nearly $3 million in one-year offers of $720,000 each to restricted free agents Kelley Washington, Jeremi Johnson, Kevin Walter and Scott Kooistra.

The $4 million could get them one to two starters on defense, and isn’t that where the money should go? Plus, they no doubt want to squeeze in an extension or two to an offensive lineman. You just can’t pay your No. 3 receiver/punt returner what Randle El no doubt wants.

OK, just to be clear, I'm not lobbying for Randel El...but note the numbers being bandied about. First, $10 million in cap space? Every estimate I've seen (and they're post-Carson's deal) put the figure around $16 million, and that's using the lowest estimated cap number (about $92 million). So $6 mill vanished right off the bat.

And yes! there it is! Ye olde rookie pool excuse! Never mind that you don't need to even worry about that until about May at the earliest. Nope, gotta set that aside right now!

And I love the part about how we will extend the o-line and get a couple defensive starters for a combined $4 mill! I just can't wait to see the line of top-notch defenders lining up for that big payday, eh?

Nice to know that some things never change around PBS...

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Yeah, disappointing, but hardly suprising spin by Hobson - who is probably directed to play down the #'s for public relations reasons and fan expectations, as they seem to do every year.

Considering the schedule next year, and the fact this team is on the brink of annual contender status - they can hardly afford to sit on their laurels and take things for granted like they have in the past.

Maybe they can get Artrell Hawkins and another Bryan Robinson type with that $4 million.

I really just don't understand what quantity over quality does for this team when you consider the relatively lame contributions of Powell, Robinson, Thorton, Kelly, Herring and others.

I'd rather them get one or two impact FA's like James for a couple of years, than spend what is probably a boat load of cash on multiple, 2nd tier FA's just to fill out a roster. There's no reason they can't find a Powell or thorton or Robinson or Herring in the draft or as an USFA, you'd get very similar production and have a couple of needed impact play makers to boot.

Makes no sense to me - hopefully Hobson is just way-off, the defense needs an overhaul badly.

[Whur CHad At?]

Hobson is a stupid fool when it comes to this stuff IMO.

I don't buy this one bit. This is like Seattle with ttheir deal with Shaun Alexander. The team said today that they are very interested in Warrick Dunn, just to scare Alexander.

Don't buy it, this is total balloni

[HairOnFire]

I really just don't understand what quantity over quality does for this team when you consider the relatively lame contributions of Powell, Robinson, Thorton, Kelly, Herring and others.

I'd rather them get one or two impact FA's like James for a couple of years, than spend what is probably a boat load of cash on multiple, 2nd tier FA's just to fill out a roster.

Sorry, but isn't that a poor example? Tory James was one of several 2nd tier FA's signed in the only offseason the Bengals have had where it made just as much sense to sign outside help as locking up their own talent. Granted, he paid big dividends early, but has shown of late why it wasn't out of line to consider him a 2nd tier addition. Praise his signing as an example of the FA strategy you like best, but in my opinion after only two seasons he's sitting on a bubble that may very well burst on draft day.

In a nutshell I think the Bengals are no different than other NFL teams who draft impact players with an eye towards long term return while attempting to fill gaping holes with inexpensive but servicable veterans. Some moves work out very well...others don't.

As for Hobson, I'm in no position to say one way or another if his numbers are accurate, but I don't have a problem with the FA strategy he laid out. That being, one or two additions on defense....with a strong emphasis placed upon retaining several of the players who will be FA's after the coming season.

Oh, and I don't care one bit that the Bengals aren't counting dollars devoted to the rookie pool amongst funds that could be devoted towards signing free agents....because those funds aren't needed now....largely because free agency hasn't started yet.

[kingwilly]

Just a constant reminder that the browns still own the bengals, no matter how well they do or improve.

Joisey, they must be using bizarro-math....just blinking around on the net, the bengals should be 14-16 million under cap. I also noticed hobson's remark about the bengals using "all' their money in'05....is that so??? hmm...I'd need to see some fact before I blindly agree with that one, hobby.

[HoosierCat]

Oh, and I don't care one bit that the Bengals aren't counting dollars devoted to the rookie pool amongst funds that could be devoted towards signing free agents....because those funds aren't needed now....largely because free agency hasn't started yet.

Nice try, but there's nothing to prevent them from addressing their own in-house needs, such as extending Willie, Eric, Levi, or Justin, among others, right now. But no, can't use the precious rookie cap space we won't need for months. Nope, that has to come out of that $4 million "FA" fund.

I also noticed hobson's remark about the bengals using "all' their money in'05....is that so??? hmm...I'd need to see some fact before I blindly agree with that one, hobby.

IIRC they chewed up the last of the '05 space with Carson's extension...which of course seemed like a good move at the time.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I really just don't understand what quantity over quality does for this team when you consider the relatively lame contributions of Powell, Robinson, Thorton, Kelly, Herring and others.

I'd rather them get one or two impact FA's like James for a couple of years, than spend what is probably a boat load of cash on multiple, 2nd tier FA's just to fill out a roster.

Sorry, but isn't that a poor example? Tory James was one of several 2nd tier FA's signed in the only offseason the Bengals have had where it made just as much sense to sign outside help as locking up their own talent. Granted, he paid big dividends early, but has shown of late why it wasn't out of line to consider him a 2nd tier addition. Praise his signing as an example of the FA strategy you like best, but in my opinion after only two seasons he's sitting on a bubble that may very well burst on draft day.

Unfortunately it's the ONLY example - unless you consider the Deltha trade, and look how that worked out.

Look, anyone who didn't think James wasn't an impact FA is kidding themselves - "2nd tier FA's" don't make Pro Bowls and lead the team in INT's. James, for lack of another example on this team, is the type of FA I like to see.

He's been here two years, served his purpose, helped to solidify the secondary, and made a big impact.

Sure he's nothing special and wearing down - but again, he served his purpose, made an impact, and was worth the $ they paid him.

I want more of that please - even Kitna was an impact FA when he was signed - look how he worked out!

You can have your crappy Powell's and Kelly's and Webster's, and i'll take my James' and Kitna's any day, IF it means sacrificing one over the other due to available salary cap room.

[HoosierCat]

As for Hobson, I'm in no position to say one way or another if his numbers are accurate, but I don't have a problem with the FA strategy he laid out. That being, one or two additions on defense....with a strong emphasis placed upon retaining several of the players who will be FA's after the coming season.

I don't object to that strategy either, but the numbers are the whole point. The less-than-dynamic duo of Robinson and Ohalete ran us something like $2.5 mill combined. The $4 mill figure Hobson bandies about might -- might! -- be sufficient to lure one quality defender, or maybe extend Levi or Steinbach.

Adding one or two solid defenders and extending "several of the players" who will be FAs in '06? Sounds fine. But $4 mill ain't gonna cut it.

[HairOnFire]

Oh, and I don't care one bit that the Bengals aren't counting dollars devoted to the rookie pool amongst funds that could be devoted towards signing free agents....because those funds aren't needed now....largely because free agency hasn't started yet.

Nice try, but there's nothing to prevent them from addressing their own in-house needs, such as extending Willie, Eric, Levi, or Justin, among others, right now. But no, can't use the precious rookie cap space we won't need for months. Nope, that has to come out of that $4 million "FA" fund.

Whose to say the Bengals haven't begun the process of trying to extend some of those contracts? Hasn't Willie Anderson already started negotiating in the press? Why would he bother doing so if the feeling out process hasn't already begun?

And again, I don't understand your yearly fascination with lumping all potentially available money into an inflated figure that can be waved like a red flag infront of the masses who'll immediately clamor for the Bengals to spend every penny of a total that would be just as fake as your claims about the Bengals.

Bottom Line: Does it matter if the FA pool is said to be 4, 6, 8, or 10 million when the items currently on sale are scrub QB's expected to battle for 3rd string action?

[HairOnFire]

Unfortunately it's the ONLY example - unless you consider the Deltha trade, and look how that worked out.

Look, anyone who didn't think James wasn't an impact FA is kidding themselves - "2nd tier FA's" don't make Pro Bowls and lead the team in INT's. James, for lack of another example on this team, is the type of FA I like to see.

He's been here two years, served his purpose, helped to solidify the secondary, and made a big impact.

Sure he's nothing special and wearing down - but again, he served his purpose, made an impact, and was worth the $ they paid him.

I want more of that please - even Kitna was an impact FA when he was signed - look how he worked out!

You can have your crappy Powell's and Kelly's and Webster's, and i'll take my James' and Kitna's any day, IF it means sacrificing one over the other due to available salary cap room.

At the time he was signed I think it's questionable that Tory James was even considered a 2nd tier free agent, and if he's proven to be more valuable than that it's a credit to the way the Bengals do business....not grounds for criticism. The same is true of Kitna as well. Anybody who seriously wants to argue that his was more than a 2nd or 3rd tier signing has been sniffing glue.

Frankly, it's a bit unfair to point to signings that have worked out better than others and assume that they're evidence of a different way of doing business. In fact, I'll argue that the FA strategy has been the same for all of the examples you listed. The only difference relates to the individual results from each move. I also think it's unfair to assume that injured players like Nate Webster were crappy players who represent bad FA moves. Exploded knees have the tendency to make any move look bad, right? How many of us would be in favor of extending Carson Palmer's deal to the year 2014 if the move were proposed today?

* Tory James isn't the only example of the Bengals signing a 2nd tier CB who quickly rewarded them with a Pro Bowl appearance. Ashley Ambrose did that trick too.

I don't object to that strategy either, but the numbers are the whole point. The less-than-dynamic duo of Robinson and Ohalete ran us something like $2.5 mill combined. The $4 mill figure Hobson bandies about might -- might! -- be sufficient to lure one quality defender, or maybe extend Levi or Steinbach.

Adding one or two solid defenders and extending "several of the players" who will be FAs in '06? Sounds fine. But $4 mill ain't gonna cut it.

I'd say the whole point is that it doesn't matter what soft figure is being kicked around today. Not when everyone knows that any potential move the Bengals want to make right now can be accomplished without making any moves whatsoever, and any move they want to consider after free agency starts for real can be accomplished by moving money around, making roster cuts, or extending a contract or two.

Sorry, but I think you're tilting at windmills.

[HoosierCat]

And again, I don't understand your yearly fascination with lumping all potentially available money into an inflated figure that can be waved like a red flag infront of the masses who'll immediately clamor for the Bengals to spend every penny of a total that would be just as fake as your claims about the Bengals.

My fake claims about the Bengals? What fake claims? Where did that come from? Nothing I've said has anything to do waving red flags or making fake claims. It's simply an observation on the way the bengals (consistently) approach free agency, as reflected in annual, and predictable, bits like this of Hobson's. (If you don't believe his pieces reflect the front office line, I invite you to compare his write-up of the lawsuit dismissal with the Cincy Posts'.)

Whose to say the Bengals haven't begun the process of trying to extend some of those contracts? Hasn't Willie Anderson already started negotiating in the press? Why would he bother doing so if the feeling out process hasn't already begun?

Feeling out process? What feeling out process? Willie's demands have been known (and rebuffed) by the Bengals for years now. As for any money-related issues, Willie and his agent have access to every player contract the Bengals have through the NFLPA and are not going to be paying any attention to Hobson's stuff. That's solely for the likes of you and me. It's just the standard "we're poor" PR stuff laid out as a pre-emptive excuse for not spending money.

Bottom Line: Does it matter if the FA pool is said to be 4, 6, 8, or 10 million

So you expect it to change? Guess what: it won't.

[schroomytunes]

I've been looking at the free agents this year as well as guys coming out of the draft and I've been thinking of a couple of scenerios to make our team better for 06 and the future as well.

Scenerio 1:

We use the cap space we have to resign Levi and Steinbach to extentions, thus ensuring Palmers blindside is protected for future years.After having done this I propose that we sign a few solid players from FA for the defense. There is no need to pursue the high priced talent, a defense wins by playing as a unit not as individuals. These areas are in need of upgrades DT,DE,S and we have very little depth at those positions too. So we sign these FA's to upgrade

1)ma'ake kemoeatu-(dt) balt. He becomes the big-man in the middle who requires a double team and frees up the rest of the front seven to pursue the ball.

2)Keion Carpenter-(ss) atl. He teams up with Madieu and provides a veteren presence at a position of weakness and gives us more depth at a need position.

Scenerio 2:

We use cap space to resign either Levi or Steinbach to extentions but not both. Then we look to FA to acquire guys for the defense.

1)Nate Clements-(cb) buf. He takes over for T.James who we then convert to SS/FS

IMHO- I like Scenerio 1 better because we address both sides of the ball and still upgrade the defensive side of the ball too. I am a big fan of the draft, thats where we build a team, FA should be used to plug holes, but 1 guy is not going to get us to the SB we need 3-4 guys. By landing Kemo we have upgraded the d-line and Carpenter gives us more bang in the secondary. Then we look at the draft for additional help. So my mock 5 rounder will be:

rd 1: Brodrick Bunkley(DT) fla st.- He teams with Kemo on the D line and provides the interior push that we lack.

rd 2: Donte Whitner(SS) Ohio st.- He teams with MW and pushes Carpenter for playing time should start @ week 6.

rd 3: Charlie Whitehurst(QB) Clem.- He becomes Palmers backup and gets the majority of snaps in pre season

rd 4: Joel Klopfenstein(TE) Colo. He becomes RK backup and is the starter come 07

rd 5: Thomas Howard(LB) UTEP He provides more depth and pushes Caleb Miller for a roster spot.

rd 2:

[HairOnFire]

So you expect it to change? Guess what: it won't.

(((Shrug)))

What can I say, I actually like the Bengals strategy of placing the greatest importance on signing their own important free agents, and if they manage to do that...while adding one or two servicable veterans at key positions...I'll consider free agency to be a success. However, the possibility does exist where the Bengals manage to free up additional cap room by extending contracts and by cutting expensive dead weight. So all things considered I don't think I'll wring my hands very much about the cap space that's rumored to be available right now.

[schweinhart]

Sorry, but I think you're tilting at windmills.

Nice Donkey Oatie allusion

I just hope the number is closer to $16 mill than $10. Not so much for free agents (Kemoeatu, Kitna, Kenny Watson, and maybe Darren Howard would be just fine) but more so for contract extensions with Steiny, Levi, and Big Willie at the outset and a player to be named later into the season itself like Palmer was last year.

[HairOnFire]

And again, I don't understand your yearly fascination with lumping all potentially available money into an inflated figure that can be waved like a red flag infront of the masses who'll immediately clamor for the Bengals to spend every penny of a total that would be just as fake as your claims about the Bengals.

My fake claims about the Bengals? What fake claims? Where did that come from? Nothing I've said has anything to do waving red flags or making fake claims. It's simply an observation on the way the bengals (consistently) approach free agency, as reflected in annual, and predictable, bits like this of Hobson's.

Sorry, I didn't intend to imply that you were making false claims. Just trying to point out that artificially inflating the amount of money available in free agency is just as misleading as the Bengals own habit of soft selling their options. Regardless of how poorly I word my responses...rookies do need to be paid, right? So why downplay the fact that future costs and planned player moves have to be planned for? And as you pointed out, any money from last years cap that looked like it might go unspent was wisely used in Palmers extension, a stunning move that hardly smacked of a penny pinching franchise.

[HairOnFire]

It's simply an observation on the way the bengals (consistently) approach free agency, as reflected in annual, and predictable, bits like this of Hobson's. (If you don't believe his pieces reflect the front office line, I invite you to compare his write-up of the lawsuit dismissal with the Cincy Posts'.)

I've read them both and the facts are exactly the same in each. The only real difference is the Post includes vague comments from the judge about how it's within the realm of possiblity the lawsuit had merit if certain allegations were later proven to be facts...which didn't happen...because the lawsuit was, in a legal sense, completely dead-in-the-water from the day it was filed.

[DontPushMe]

Hobson is a stupid fool when it comes to this stuff IMO.

I don't buy this one bit. This is like Seattle with ttheir deal with Shaun Alexander. The team said today that they are very interested in Warrick Dunn, just to scare Alexander.

Don't buy it, this is total balloni

Except the fact that he says this every year in contrast to the websites that claim we have 10+ and is right.

[turningpoint]

yeah hobson is correct ever year, we hardly have enough to sign a big time FA, hel last year right after the draft we had to cut a player( forget who) and on top of that we had to restructure Webster, to just fit under the cap.

[HoosierCat]

yeah hobson is correct ever year, we hardly have enough to sign a big time FA, hel last year right after the draft we had to cut a player( forget who) and on top of that we had to restructure Webster, to just fit under the cap.

Last year the Bengals carried $4-5 million in unused cap space all year. They finally used it as part of Carson's extension at the end of December. They were never remotely in cap trouble. Frankly, I'm kind of surprised Hobson didn't wipe out the $4 mill he alllows for FA, since the Bengals habitually keep about that much space every year.

[derekshank]

Yeah... I don't really buy into the idea that the Bengals don't have money for FA. We clearly do... but I also think I too easily get sucked into the hype of looking at players from other teams.

We didn't get to watch those other guys all year, so when we see their stats, we assuime they must be great players. Ohalete's numbers don't look all that bad... but we watched him play, and know better.

Perhaps our trend of re-signing the players we have is the best way to be successful in FA. It doesn't make headlines, and it makes the off-season seem kind of boring, but we were 11-5 this year.

There are players out there that can and will be upgrades... but it hasn't been our style to find top tier FA's. Marvin likes finding them in the draft, and then keeping them around. I'm not against this.

Aside from Corey Dillon I never remember NE going after a big name in FA... and Dillon was a trade! They get the 2nd tier guys, and build through the draft, and have been really good with the team concept for several years. It's not flashy, but it works... especially long term.

I think I would be happy if we extended the left side of our O-line, and got just one single FA at DT (preferabbly Ma'ake Kemoeatu), and then continue to build through the draft. That would be a very successful off-season in my opinion. We're a good team as it is. We don't need a complete overhaul.

[HairOnFire]

Last year the Bengals carried $4-5 million in unused cap space all year. They finally used it as part of Carson's extension at the end of December. They were never remotely in cap trouble. Frankly, I'm kind of surprised Hobson didn't wipe out the $4 mill he alllows for FA, since the Bengals habitually keep about that much space every year.

The Bengals typically set aside about 2 million, not 4-5, to be used for any injury settlements or contract incentives that impact their cap space during the year. That's good planning and they're not the only team that does so. In fact, it's the norm. It's also been the Bengals habit to use unspent funds late in the season if it appears the money isn't going to be used for the reasons previously mentioned. Palmer's contract extension is just the latest example of that, and the result is the Bengals typically use all of their available cap space in the manner they feel most comfortable with. For those that demand they push the envelope more than they're comfortable doing, well....start pounding sand up your tail pipe....or buy your own NFL team and show 'em how it's done.

Frankly, if anyone wants to make the argument that the Bengals are a cheap organization then the relevant issue that needs to be discussed is where the Bengals rank in total amount of salary paid each year...not how much cap space they claim to have available for adding new players several weeks before free agency even starts.

[HoosierCat]

Yeah... I don't really buy into the idea that the Bengals don't have money for FA. We clearly do... but I also think I too easily get sucked into the hype of looking at players from other teams.

Well, given how far you have to go down in the FA rankings to find the first Bengal...

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=9&c=12&...3&lnid=83&rc=16

...and that's Jon Kitna....well, not hard to look covetously elsewhere around the league, eh?

And yeah, they have the money. It is possible -- in fact, very common -- to spend some "cash over cap" without endangering the long-term cap outlook. But the Bengals categorically refuse. Instead they treat the cap as a hard ceiling and claim poverty, as Hobs has already begun doing. And that tells me this year will be (surprise) no different. I expect they will manage an extension or two, but any FAs will be the usual collection of scrubs, journeymen, and waiver wire pickups.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Well, given how far you have to go down in the FA rankings to find the first Bengal...

Wake up and smell the roses on your side of the fence. Look how far down you have to go to find the first guy who will probably be changing teams too. The chances of any of those 13 top choices changing teams is minimal.

[Whur CHad At?]

Not True, TNBT. Shaun Alexander will be switching teams, as well as the Edge. I foresee a lot of movement this year.

[HairOnFire]

...and that's Jon Kitna....well, not hard to look covetously elsewhere around the league, eh?

And yeah, they have the money. It is possible -- in fact, very common -- to spend some "cash over cap" without endangering the long-term cap outlook. But the Bengals categorically refuse. Instead they treat the cap as a hard ceiling and claim poverty, as Hobs has already begun doing. And that tells me this year will be (surprise) no different. I expect they will manage an extension or two, but any FAs will be the usual collection of scrubs, journeymen, and waiver wire pickups.

Random thoughts....

The mention of Jon Kitna is interesting due to the fact that he wasn't mentioned in Hobson's breakdown. Since the Bengals have made it clear that they want to retain him if his price isn't too high you can quickly add the cost of keeping Kitna towards Joisey's missing 6 million, along with the 2 million dollar buffer previously mentioned.

Next, the Bengals aren't claiming poverty. Hobson's breakdown was simply a way to better inform fans of the realistic goals the Bengals have in free agency, and those goals apparently don't include going after Antwan Randel-El, as a fan had proposed. Personally, I've got no problem with that, nor do I have a complaint with the strategy that Hobson outlined as it matches my own.

Last, I'm reminded that last seasons free agent strategy of retaining Rudi, Pootie Tang, and Braham accomplished more than Joisey expected, but he still gave it a failing grade due to the failure to bring in outside help. Well, fair enough, but I can't imagine last season being as positive as it turned out to be without Rudi, Pootie, and Richie the Buckethead. Frankly, drafting Thurman turned out to be a much smarter move than overpaying for Jamie Sharper and the idea of making Corey Simon the highest paid DT in the NFL seems questionable when you consider the fact that he produced the same number of QB sacks as my dead grandmother.