Ludwig: Clemons Won't Be Back

[HoosierCat]

On the subject of Smith I agree with Hobson's latest...

As for Justin Smith, he gets penalized because he was the fourth pick in the 2001 draft and since he doesn’t get double-digit sacks from his end spot every year (he never has), then he’s viewed as a bust.

But the coaches don’t look at him that way. They see him as a productive, durable and high-motor guy who has averaged about seven sacks and 83 tackles per year. Those numbers don’t grow on trees. You’re looking at a guy that goes hard every snap, plays every down, and is headed to a 10-year career. That’s better than a lot of first-round picks. Far from a bust. A very solid player. You should be able to sign him at a workable number and you should want to as another guy who is up after ’06.

[Kazkal]

These are all the FA at S and D-Line this offseason. This of course doesn't include many of the players that will be cut due to cap problems (of which there should be many). But by the looks of it... while there aren't a ton of big names there... we can certainly replace Clemons.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2006freeagents.htm

New England: S Michael Stone

Miami: S Lance Schulters; S Yeremiah Bell (RFA)

Buffalo: DE Ryan Denney; DT Justin Bannan; DT Ron Edwards

New York Jets: DT James Reed; DE John Abraham

Pittsburgh: DE Kimo von Oelhoffen; S Chris Hope

Cleveland: DE Orpheus Roye; DT Ethan Kelley (RFA); S Antwan Harris

Baltimore: DE Anthony Weaver; DT Ma'ake Kemoeatu; S Chad Williams; S Will Demps; DE Jarret Johnson (RFA); DT Aubrayo Franklin (RFA)

Indianapolis: DE Raheem Brock; DT Larry Tripplett; DE Robert Mathis (RFA); S Joseph Jefferson; S Gerome Sapp (RFA)

Jacksonville: S Deke Cooper; DE Marcellus Wiley; DT Rob Meier

Houston: S Ramon Walker

Tennessee: DE Kyle Vanden Bosch; S Tank Williams; S Donnie Nickey (RFA)

Denver: DT Monsanto Pope; DT Demtrin Veal (RFA); S Sam Brandon; DE Marco Coleman

Oakland: S Jarrod Cooper; DT Terdell Sands; DT Edward Jasper; S Reggie Tongue; DT Kenny Smith

Kansas City: DT Lional Dalton; DE Jimmy Wilkerson (RFA); DE Carlos Hall

San Diego: DE DeQuincy Scott; DE Jacques Cesaire (RFA); S Clinton Hart (RFA)

Dallas: S Keith Davis (RFA); S Willie Pile (RFA); S Lynn Scott; DT Willie Blade

Philadelphia: DE N.D. Kalu; DE Juqua Thomas; S Quintin Mikell (RFA)

Washington: S Ryan Clark; DT Cedric Killings (RFA); DE Demetric Evans; S Omar Stoutmire

New York Giants: DT Kendrick Clancy; DT Kenderick Allen (RFA)

Minnesota: S Corey Chavous; DE Lance Johnstone; S Willie Offord

Detroit: DE Cory Redding (RFA); S Terrence Holt (RFA); DE Jared DeVries; DE Kalimba Edwards; S Bracy Walker; S Vernon Fox

Green Bay: DE Aaron Kampman; DT Grady Jackson; DE Kenny Peterson (RFA); S Earl Little

Carolina: S Marlon McCree; DT Kindal Moorehead (RFA); DE Kemp Rasmussen; S Idrees Bashir; S Colin Branch (RFA)

New Orleans: DE Willie Whitehead; DE Darren Howard; S Mel Mitchell

Tampa Bay: DT Chris Hovan; S Dexter Jackson

Atlanta: S Keion Carpenter; DE Antwan Lake; S Ronnie Heard; S Kevin McCadam; S Antuan Edwards; S Omare Lowe

Arizona: DE Ross Kolodziej; DE Antonio Cochran; DE R-Kal Truluck; S Quentin Harris; DT Russell Davis; DE Kenny King (RFA); DT Langston Moore (RFA)

St. Louis: DT Ryan Pickett; S Adam Archuleta; S Mike Furrey (RFA); DE Tyoka Jackson; DT Damione Lewis; DE Brandon Green (RFA)

Seattle: S Marquand Manuel; DE Rodney Bailey; DT Rocky Bernard; DE Joe Tafoya; S John Howell; San Francisco: DE Travis Hall

why cant we send pollack to de and smith stays put and then get a olb in freeagency

We could... but Pollack was coming on toward the end of the season at LB... and he could be one of the best QB blitzing LB's in all of football. You don't sacrifice that potential because of a new draft.

We could bring kimo back mybe can be his way to repay what he did to carson

[USMC203]

How bout Maathis Assque, He is a Gooden, Good oh 96. I hopes they hire him Cuss he is a smmart one hee'n got Payed and nerver played but one game. (OK I am BOARD)

[HairOnFire]

Depends on who you call a "top" FA. John Abraham? No way. He'll be tagged, we aren't coughing up the picks, and if somehow he should be an untagged UFA come March 1, our chances of landing him will be (attn. Fire, HairOn) 0%.

No argument. I was well aware of how low the odds were when I added my voice to the chorus of dreamers. That said, our fantasy is no more improbable than the Corey Simon rant that you championed last offseason, and the Bengals were one of the last two teams standing when that one played out. Decide for yourself if they ever really came close, but I can see the Abraham situation playing out along comparable lines...with the key difference being a dropped franchise tag after the Jets find a less expensive replacement.

BTW, if you want a more modest fanatasy I like Kyle Vanden Bosch more than the popular Darren Howard option.

On the subject of Smith I agree with Hobson's latest...

As for Justin Smith, he gets penalized because he was the fourth pick in the 2001 draft and since he doesn’t get double-digit sacks from his end spot every year (he never has), then he’s viewed as a bust.

But the coaches don’t look at him that way. They see him as a productive, durable and high-motor guy who has averaged about seven sacks and 83 tackles per year. Those numbers don’t grow on trees. You’re looking at a guy that goes hard every snap, plays every down, and is headed to a 10-year career. That’s better than a lot of first-round picks. Far from a bust. A very solid player. You should be able to sign him at a workable number and you should want to as another guy who is up after ’06.

Complete agreement. I find it ironic that many of the same posters now calling Justin Smith a complete waste spent last offseason pimping the future of Robert Geathers....only to watch as Geathers produced fewer impact plays as a starter than he had managed as a reserve.

As for Clemons, I'll gladly help pay his cab fair out of town.

[NJ29]

No suprise. We don't really need him anyway.

[derekshank]

Good article on Bengals.com that I think gave a window into the way Marvin is looking at it.

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=5029

GH: You’re going to be in Mobile, Ala., next week at the Senior Bowl to officially start looking to upgrade the roster. What are your needs?

ML: Through the offseason, I think we want to make sure we fill needs in the defensive front, secondary, wide receiver, tight end, offensive line. We can do that from guys that are currently here, later on with NFL free agents, and the draft.

GH: One observation would be that down the stretch it wasn’t the guys up front that hurt you, but the long plays you gave up in the back end.

ML: We gave up long plays. Sometimes it was safeties, sometimes it was corners, but we’re going to address our need in the secondary. No question about it.

GH: Would you go after a cornerback in free agency?

ML: They’re too pricey. They cost (big) money. I said the secondary in general. I didn’t say positions ... we allowed some explosive plays. It was either breakdowns in scheme, or breakdowns physically and mentally. We can’t have it. They’re not coached to do it that way, so we either get things corrected or find new players. This is the time of year we find new players.

These were 3 questions by Hobson that I think were very strategically and well asked to get more info than Marvin probably meant to give. Marvin talked about addressing the secondary... and when asked about cornerbacks, he said they were too pricey in free agency. Perhaps I'm looking too closely at it... but the way he worded the answer to that last question (saying he wasn't looking for CB's in FA, but that the issue was the secondary in general, and that he is looking for new players) leads me to believe he is looking at adding a SS through the FA market. If we can get an Archuleta, or Chavous, we'd be in good shape to go TE, DT, and DE in the draft.

[walshfan]

I dont think Marvin will ever tip his hand..

I wouldnt be surprised if he drafts anything from a safety, DT or DE with his pick....

As for free agency remember there will be allot of good players cut before long due to the cap....

[CBin2k7]

I find it ironic that many of the same posters now calling Justin Smith a complete waste spent last offseason pimping the future of Robert Geathers....only to watch as Geathers produced fewer impact plays as a starter than he had managed as a reserve.

I am not ready to give up on Geathers, I still think he has a lot of potential. I just wished they didn't move him inside on the pass rushing downs. He is still one of the youngest players on the team, so he is still developing into his body.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

I dont think Marvin will ever tip his hand..

I wouldnt be surprised if he drafts anything from a safety, DT or DE with his pick....

You aren't kidding about Marvin not tipping his hand. He's more likely to tip a cow than his hand! I wouldn't be surprised if he traded up and grabbed some stud like Leinart or D'brickshaw Ferguson. I don't expect it, but that's exactly why I wouldn't be surprised. The man never lets on what he knows, what he plans, or who he covets.

Never forget..... CHRIS FREAKING PERRY?!!?! WTF?! A running back?!?!? I don't get it!

[redsfan2]

Don't forget that Hobson works for the Bengals. He most likely submitted a list of questions that he wanted to ask comprised of his own ... ones he got from e - mail .... and probably more than a few from here. Coach probably drew a line through the ones he didn't want to answer ( or even have asked ) and then gave the list back to Hobs in the order that he wanted him to ask them. Hobs is not going to try to elicit information out of the coach that he ( coach Lewis ) doesn't want to have divulged. If he did inadvertently spill something .... it'd never make it to print.

Ludwig would be a lot more likely to try something like that. Not that he'd get away with it either. Can't remember how many times I've heard Ludwig ask a question only to have the coach smile ... chuckle ... and then say " I'm not going to tell you that Chick ".

" More likely to tip a cow than his hand ". That's funny .... it's also gospel truth.

Having said all the above .... It is a good article and well worth reading in its entirety.

[HoosierCat]

BTW, if you want a more modest fanatasy I like Kyle Vanden Bosch more than the popular Darren Howard option.

KVB in stripes would be fine by me, I just don't think Tenn. lets him get away.

[Tasher]

I think that we all need to look at the overall scheme of the defense between last year and this year...

Much more depended on the DL and especially the ends because the LBs were out of position and certainly not to the quality that they were this year. Thurman had an extrordinary amount of tackles as did overall the LB corp this year to last year.

I do not know what the count was for total team sacks this year to last, but my guess would be that we had more sacks overall this year than last, we just do not have an individual where all the sacks stats are concentrated like other teams, plus we moved everybody around this year and had two rookies in key positions. I would suggest that next year will be a different year and that you will see significantly improved sack totals from Waterboy which will help draw attention that will allow others to get to the QB such as Smith and Geathers and the rest of our DL and other LBs. Look at how the Colts prosper in the pass rush.

Bottom line is that the scheme changed with the new coordinator and people filpflopped around. add to that the rookies (including a holdout) and I think that we will see a drastic improvement next year.

[derekshank]

I think that we all need to look at the overall scheme of the defense between last year and this year...

Much more depended on the DL and especially the ends because the LBs were out of position and certainly not to the quality that they were this year. Thurman had an extrordinary amount of tackles as did overall the LB corp this year to last year.

I do not know what the count was for total team sacks this year to last, but my guess would be that we had more sacks overall this year than last, we just do not have an individual where all the sacks stats are concentrated like other teams, plus we moved everybody around this year and had two rookies in key positions. I would suggest that next year will be a different year and that you will see significantly improved sack totals from Waterboy which will help draw attention that will allow others to get to the QB such as Smith and Geathers and the rest of our DL and other LBs. Look at how the Colts prosper in the pass rush.

Bottom line is that the scheme changed with the new coordinator and people filpflopped around. add to that the rookies (including a holdout) and I think that we will see a drastic improvement next year.

Unfortunately you're wrong. In '04 we had 37 sacks, ranking 20th in the league at getting sacks. This year we had only 28 ranking 30th... and 4.5 of these came from Pollack... a rookie LB that held out, and didn't play well until the season was mostly over. Our D-Line was much worse this year than last.

Geathers had fewer sacks this year than last (and he started this year), Smith had fewer, Clemons had fewer, Thornton had fewer, Powell had fewer, and Robinson, Shaun Smith and Askew combined for a big fat 0! Yep... that covers everyone who plays on our D-Line! We need better players on this line. We need a DT that draws double coverage to help our DE's. Geathers and Smith can be productive... but without other decent players to help them out, they'll continue to lack pressure on the QB. Our line needs to be overhauled... and I think Marvin knows that. If we improve on the D-Line's pass rush, the whole defense gets better... and it's not a coaching issue, we need better DT's.

[HairOnFire]

BTW, if you want a more modest fanatasy I like Kyle Vanden Bosch more than the popular Darren Howard option.

KVB in stripes would be fine by me, I just don't think Tenn. lets him get away.

Maybe, but who knows? The Titans actually admitted several years ago how reluctant they are to re-sign their own free agent defensive lineman due to their feelings that the veteran players at those positions, be they good or great players, become too expensive to keep. Those remarks were offered as an explanation of the strategy that let players like Kearse and Thornton leave, prompting the selection of three new defensive lineman in just one draft.

[HairOnFire]

Geathers had fewer sacks this year than last (and he started this year), Smith had fewer, Clemons had fewer, Thornton had fewer, Powell had fewer, and Robinson, Shaun Smith and Askew combined for a big fat 0! Yep... that covers everyone who plays on our D-Line! We need better players on this line.

I'm all for upgrading the talent, but I've got to continue pointing my finger at a scheme that resulted in fewer sacks from every single defensive lineman on the roster. This isn't a group that can consistently pressure the passer with a base 4-man front. To produce more sacks and better than average pressure the current roster of D-Lineman often needs to be complimented with aggressive and creative blitz packages, especially against passing teams with blocking fronts they poorly match up with. We didn't see very much of that, and the teams the Bengals faced in the 2nd half of the season did a far better job of exploiting the lack of pressure than the teams faced earlier managed to do.

[HoosierCat]

I'm all for upgrading the talent, but I've got to continue pointing my finger at a scheme that resulted in fewer sacks from every single defensive lineman on the roster. This isn't a group that can consistently pressure the passer with a base 4-man front. To produce more sacks and better than average pressure the current roster of D-Lineman often needs to be complimented with aggressive and creative blitz packages, especially against passing teams with blocking fronts they poorly match up with.

True...but the scheme doesn't appear likely to change. Moving away from those kind of "aggressive and creative blitz packages" in favor of a "pressure by the front four" strategy was the whole rationale behind the Frazier firing and Breshnahan hiring. So there doesn't seem to be any choice but to upgrade and hope Bresh & Lewis know what they're doing.

[NJ29]

I'm all for upgrading the talent, but I've got to continue pointing my finger at a scheme that resulted in fewer sacks from every single defensive lineman on the roster. This isn't a group that can consistently pressure the passer with a base 4-man front. To produce more sacks and better than average pressure the current roster of D-Lineman often needs to be complimented with aggressive and creative blitz packages, especially against passing teams with blocking fronts they poorly match up with.

True...but the scheme doesn't appear likely to change. Moving away from those kind of "aggressive and creative blitz packages" in favor of a "pressure by the front four" strategy was the whole rationale behind the Frazier firing and Breshnahan hiring. So there doesn't seem to be any choice but to upgrade and hope Bresh & Lewis know what they're doing.

If we can't blitz... We have to upgrade personel, because we are generating ZERO pressure from the front four. And with Tory aging, and Keiwan not being that great in man coverage, pressure needs to be made. Getting Madieu back will be a big help, the combination of zero pass rush and a a few slowing members of the secondary is a bad combination. I wouldn't be at all suprised if we drafted a DEor CB in the first round.

[AMC]

I'm all for upgrading the talent, but I've got to continue pointing my finger at a scheme that resulted in fewer sacks from every single defensive lineman on the roster. This isn't a group that can consistently pressure the passer with a base 4-man front. To produce more sacks and better than average pressure the current roster of D-Lineman often needs to be complimented with aggressive and creative blitz packages, especially against passing teams with blocking fronts they poorly match up with.

True...but the scheme doesn't appear likely to change. Moving away from those kind of "aggressive and creative blitz packages" in favor of a "pressure by the front four" strategy was the whole rationale behind the Frazier firing and Breshnahan hiring. So there doesn't seem to be any choice but to upgrade and hope Bresh & Lewis know what they're doing.

If we can't blitz... We have to upgrade personel, because we are generating ZERO pressure from the front four. And with Tory aging, and Keiwan not being that great in man coverage, pressure needs to be made. Getting Madieu back will be a big help, the combination of zero pass rush and a a few slowing members of the secondary is a bad combination. I wouldn't be at all suprised if we drafted a DEor CB in the first round.

Based on Marvin's comments in the Hob's interview, CB will not be addressed in FA. I would not be surprised if there is a good CB at 24, Marvin will take him....I would not rule it out...

Getting Madieu back should never be underestimated....I think that will help the whole defense incredibly....

[schweinhart]

Clearly something must be done to improve the pass rush and shore up the secondary and that would be the offseason expectation, especially since change of scheme doesn't look like it's on either the front or back burner.

However, another case can be made for safety in the 1st in that Madieu also happens to be the 2nd best CB on the team IMO and could go there if need be. Behind O'Neal, Madieu is the next best cover corner they got. Tighter coverage would help the pass rush eventually find its way to the QB but a bolstered secondary combined with a better pass rush of the front 4 should make for significant improvement in the defensive results.

But after the 2004 1st round pick when upgrading the defense was at least as much of priority, I won't be shocked if the 1st pick in 2006 ends up being a TE or OT/G.

[NJ29]

Clearly something must be done to improve the pass rush and shore up the secondary and that would be the offseason expectation, especially since change of scheme doesn't look like it's on either the front or back burner.

However, another case can be made for safety in the 1st in that Madieu also happens to be the 2nd best CB on the team IMO and could go there if need be. Behind O'Neal, Madieu is the next best cover corner they got. Tighter coverage would help the pass rush eventually find its way to the QB but a bolstered secondary combined with a better pass rush of the front 4 should make for significant improvement in the defensive results.

But after the 2004 1st round pick when upgrading the defense was at least as much of priority, I won't be shocked if the 1st pick in 2006 ends up being a TE or OT/G.

Defense was definately a priority in 2004, but I think that the uncertainy about whether or not Rudi could carry load was what pushed us to take Perry. If the contract situations scare us that much this year, we could see a tackle or guard in the first. I hope not, but it could hapen.

[AMC]

I am getting to the point where I don't care if it fits the system or not....I want to see a fast, bada$$ BEAST coming off the edge!!!!!

A pure pass rusher who causes O-lines and RBs to gravitate to one player in fear for their QBs safety!!!!!!!!

Screw the system, I want pressure NOW!

OK, I feel better

[HairOnFire]

I'm all for upgrading the talent, but I've got to continue pointing my finger at a scheme that resulted in fewer sacks from every single defensive lineman on the roster. This isn't a group that can consistently pressure the passer with a base 4-man front. To produce more sacks and better than average pressure the current roster of D-Lineman often needs to be complimented with aggressive and creative blitz packages, especially against passing teams with blocking fronts they poorly match up with.

True...but the scheme doesn't appear likely to change. Moving away from those kind of "aggressive and creative blitz packages" in favor of a "pressure by the front four" strategy was the whole rationale behind the Frazier firing and Breshnahan hiring. So there doesn't seem to be any choice but to upgrade and hope Bresh & Lewis know what they're doing.

I think we've all reached the same destination, so the real question is how we got here. It hardly matters if someone is quicker to blame the personel or the scheme when the conclusion reached is the same, that being an upgrade in talent is required. That said, I think the drum beating about flushing the entire defensive line is missing the point because most of these players have proven that they're capable of better production if used differently. And that explains why, when it comes to finger pointing, I'm tempted to start with Bresnahan due to the fact that he didn't adapt his schemes when teams began gashing his defense in the 2nd half of the season. Remember, I defended Brat's scheme early in he season despite the lack of sacks for one simple reason. It was working like a charm. But when teams started scoring 30 points a game against this group the tactics never changed....implying that they never will be.

[bengalsLB]

personally i would like thwe bengals to pick Chris Hope and Rahem Brock. Hope hits hard and is good in coverage plus could give us some more insight on what the steelers do on D, Brock is underated and indys bests DE against the Run he also is a Decent pass rusher

[Indycat]

.... when it comes to finger pointing, I'm tempted to start with Bresnahan due to the fact that he didn't adapt his schemes when teams began gashing his defense in the 2nd half of the season.... when teams started scoring 30 points a game against this group the tactics never changed....

I agree.

When the talk is about upgrading talent the coaching staff must also be looked at.

Bresnahan, Jay Hayes DL, and Jonathan Hayes TE's will all need to be re-assigned, replaced (upgraded if you will) before the Bengals can become the perenial power we all long to see.