Why can't Marvin fix this defense?

[walzav29]

I knew it would take time, but this will be his 4th season and the defense just doesn't get better. Is it the youth? Does he not have the players he needs? Is it the draft or lack of free agent talented DT's like Sam Adams, Pat Williams, Warren Sapp all guys the Bengals tried for. I just wish they would get it fixed. I have ducked the highlights all week, and I peeked last night. The Bengals have to be 1 of 3 teams that always let Bettis run over them. The Bengals have never in my 25 years of watching had a dominant defense. Why is that?

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Sam Adams isnt' talented, he's fat and slow. When did we EVER try to sign him? We didn't. Marvin was exceptionally clear we didn't want a fat slow guy.

Sapp we found out after initially getting an agreement that he had a problem. We didn't take him, he went elsewhere and FREAKING SUCKED WIND.

Pat Williams? When did we ever offer him a contract?

Next you'll be saying we missed out on Hovan, since he didn't sign here yet.

[walshfan]

Bengals have a history of emphasizing the offense.. This theory hasnt worked.. The emphasis should now be on defense..We'll see how they fare this offseason...

[walzav29]

The only problem that they had with all 3 guys which they did try to sign. Was that they didn't have offer enough money. I'm not saying they were superstars. I'm saying that Marvin must not have thought to much of the guys that were there to offer those guys contracts.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Marvin has been building this defense every year. He completely and totally gutted it when he got here. Justin Smith and Brian Simmons are about it from the starters and most of the backups when he came. You can't rebuild from the foundation up immediately. It takes time. It takes drafts. We missed out on one big key part because a certain cornerback was cursed to doom. We missed out on a big DT because the guy was unhealthy. We had an injury to one of the best safeties this town has ever seen and he sat all year, along with the #2 guy at his position.

HE IS BUILDING THE DEFENSE.

[walshfan]

In the past players have used the Bengals as leverage to get bigger contracts from other teams... That may be the case with the beforementioned players...

I believe the Bengals made sincere offers to allot of free agent defensive players but they took their talents ( or lack of) eleswhere where they thought they had a chance of getting to the playoffs..

thats not the case now.. players will think hard about coming here in the future and not use this team as a tool to bargain with others..

[skyline]

So dramatic!

Come on folks. They've said the same things about the Colts for years. Marvin will get this thing fixed.

[walzav29]

I guess some people are getting a little too touchy due to the playoff loss. I'm not saying Marvin sucks. I want his contract extended for 57 years. I'm just trying to get some optimism brewing because the defense is always are problem.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

No problem giving him more time - we'll see if the success this year enables him to get a FA or two - because with the low slots in the draft, they aren't going to get any sort of all-world player that way, maybe a solid position player or two hopefully.

IMO the entire front line needs to be overhauled on this team, but there's just no way you can do that in one offseason.

But if their idea of improving the defense is just adding another Bryan Robinson type - they will be just as bad this year as they were last year, and with the tougher schedule there's no way in hell they come close to an 11-5 record again with that putrid defense.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

I don't think it's about adding another Bryan Robinson type, I think it's about adding another Shaun Smith type, or another Madieu Williams type, or perhaps another Deltha O'Neal type. Or could it be about adding another Odell Thurman type or a David Pollack type?

[walshfan]

Yeah all those players you mentioned have taken the defense to new heights havent they???

[skyline]

Yeah all those players you mentioned have taken the defense to new heights havent they???

Deltha has, don't you think? You're not really going to complain about the NFL leader in interceptions, are you? And surely you won't argue about Madieu and what he does for this defense. Please, say it isn't so.

And surely, you're going to give two rookie linebackers more than 1 season to make a difference, aren't you? Or are they supposed to be immediate impact players, even after a lengthy holdout? If we can get 4 more players like this via free agency and the draft, then I don't think there's any doubting that we're on the right track.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Yeah all those players you mentioned have taken the defense to new heights havent they???

Why yes, they have.

Deltha led the league in interceptions this year. He's a pro bowler. He makes plays, and makes a difference.

Madieu Williams, as a rookie had us all excited about his potential in the secondary. He will be a difference maker.

Odell Thurman led the team in tackles. I'd say he did his part to make the defense better. Sure, he's new to the NFL, so we need to wait a season or two to see how he'll pan out long term, but I'm betting he gets better and better. BUT, he hits hard, he moves fast, he intercepts the ball, he knocks the ball lose, and he sacks the QB or pressures him. Given time to get used to the NFL and experience, he's going to improve the defense.

David Pollack showed us as the year went on he was a playmaker. The holdout killed his season. He didn't have the practice in the system to be as effective as he will become. He was also in his first season as a linebacker. He WILL be dominant.

Shaun Smith came off the bench and improved the run defense. All you have to do is look at what happened when he was on the field and you can see they didn't run as well.

So yeah, they did it.

[walshfan]

the defense is terrible for all the impact the beforementioned players had on the team.. Its a work in progress ( I hope )..

they cannot take the field with the same crew as this season or its going to be the same ole same ole as this year..

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

the defense is terrible for all the impact the beforementioned players had on the team.. Its a work in progress ( I hope )..

they cannot take the field with the same crew as this season or its going to be the same ole same ole as this year..

But it's improved over where it was pre-Marvin. We aren't last in the league in every category!

[skyline]

the defense is terrible for all the impact the beforementioned players had on the team.. Its a work in progress ( I hope )..

they cannot take the field with the same crew as this season or its going to be the same ole same ole as this year..

But it's improved over where it was pre-Marvin. We aren't last in the league in every category!

Well, I also believe it's improved, but that hasn't shown on the field yet. Yes, the turnovers improved, no denying it. We're still ranked near last in points allowed, though.

It's coming...just be patient. Hard to do as football fans, I know.

[schweinhart]

Per Bengals.com Marvin press conference on 1-9

Do you think this year fixed skepticism free agents once had about signing here?

ML: I don't think there was skepticism. But free agency's not going to fix our football team. Tell me what team in the NFL has gotten fixed by free agency? That's kind of like going to the false window. Be careful of what you buy. Our team is going to grow by continuing to grow the players we have. We may pick a guy here or there. But you don't go into free agency and say you're going to fix a football team that's going to be a playoff football team year after year. That's the wrong way to go about it. Because you don't know those guys. That's hard. The concern of free agency is to get the right guy in a certain spot or two.

This obviously isn't an installment of Marvin Speak. 2003 saw four major free agent pickups in Thronton, James, Clemons, and Kevin Hardy, which was more house cleaning the roster than trying to rely on free agents to fix a team. 2004 saw Kim Herring and the Natester signs, which was an attempt to fill a couple holes that did not work in large part due to injuries. 2005 brought in Bryan Robinson, which was a stop gap signing at best but a definite upgrade. Plus, all of these signings were of players with playoff experience if not Super Bowl experience.

It's hard to think the free agency sigings for 2006 would go beyond something like Maake Kemoeatu or Kendrick Clancy at DT or Chris Hope at safety but nothing earth shattering.

[Whodey420]

It's improved over where it was pre-Marvin?.....WTF??!!

The funny thing is this defense was ranked like 9th or 10th in the league in 2001 or 2002 cant

remember....then we hire someone who is suppose to be a defensive genius/guru and we havent

been ranked in the top 20 since....lmao.....nice work.

[skyline]

It's improved over where it was pre-Marvin?.....WTF??!!

The funny thing is this defense was ranked like 9th or 10th in the league in 2001 or 2002 cant

remember....then we hire someone who is suppose to be a defensive genius/guru and we havent

been ranked in the top 20 since....lmao.....nice work.

Yeah, just like Dungy was the defensive guru in Indy, right? Or Billick is an offensive guru in Baltimore, eh?

Marvin is building a complete team, and the defense will come along.

Also, don't forget what our record was that year we had the top-ten defense. Then, compare it to the 11-5 record we just experienced.

[schweinhart]

It's improved over where it was pre-Marvin?.....WTF??!!

The funny thing is this defense was ranked like 9th or 10th in the league in 2001 or 2002 cant

remember....then we hire someone who is suppose to be a defensive genius/guru and we havent

been ranked in the top 20 since....lmao.....nice work.

Definitely a good point. The Bengals were 9th in yards allowed in 2001.

Under LeBeau it was a different scheme with the likes of TKO, a healthy Big O, Steve Foley, Vaugn Booker, a lot of depth in the secondary, and a team that got lots of pressure on the QB.

Couldn't be more different now and what the Bengals have done defensively under Marvin has been ineffective on the whole. Still won't change the team preference for draft over free agency and one gripe I see about Marvin is he relies too much on players he knows from past teams who are overacheivers at best and probably wouldn't be on any other roster -- players like Carl Plowed, Anthony Mitchell, Rashad Bauman, and Kim Herring. It's time to part ways with these types and get more talented players in their place.

[walshfan]

The players Marvin has brought in is not all his fault.

the stigma of playing in Cincinnati was deep rooted by many NFL players to be sure..

He brought in players that knew his system and felt could help somewhat.. Most were also cap friendly..

That perception has changed for the most part.. Hopefully he can lure some quality players into the fold now....

[oldschooler]

I`m basically just saying what has already been said.

But Marvin Lewis totally gutted this Defense.

There is only 3 players "total" left on the

Defensive side of the ball that were on the

roster in 2002. Brian Simmons, Justin Smith and

Kevin Kaesviharn. That is a HUGE turnover of

personel in such a short span.

Plus you have to consider that Marvin is working

with his 2nd "D" coach in a 3 year span.

And look at all the 2nd year players and rookies

that are playing key rolls.

All things considered ...I`m surprised that they

were able to do some of the things they did this season.

But the Bengals do have a pretty good looking core

of young players to work with.

I hope they get a stud D-lineman in the draft or Free Agency

that is "ready" to take over a starters position. And a stud

Safety in the draft or Free Agency that is "ready" to be teamed

up in the defensive back field with Madieu.

Marvin is building something special. And once this Defense

starts being dominant... I look for them to stay that way

for years to come !

[HoosierCat]

Definitely a good point. The Bengals were 9th in yards allowed in 2001.

11th, actually...

http://www.profootball-reference.com/teams/cin2001.htm

That performance, IMHO, also had a lot to do with the fact that the offense was 31 out of 31 in terms of scoring; opponents generally didn't need to put up more than 17 or so to beat us, so once they did they would just go into clock-killing mode.

The other point I would make is that, despite all the griping about the D, the Bengals have improved in the only department that really counts during the Marvin era: points allowed...

2003: 384

2004: 372

2005: 350

[schweinhart]

Definitely a good point. The Bengals were 9th in yards allowed in 2001.

11th, actually...

http://www.profootball-reference.com/teams/cin2001.htm

That performance, IMHO, also had a lot to do with the fact that the offense was 31 out of 31 in terms of scoring; opponents generally didn't need to put up more than 17 or so to beat us, so once they did they would just go into clock-killing mode.

The other point I would make is that, despite all the griping about the D, the Bengals have improved in the only department that really counts during the Marvin era: points allowed...

2003: 384

2004: 372

2005: 350

After watching what seemed to be total hemorraghing for the 2nd half of this season, those baby steps in the pts. allowed department over the past 3 years don't sit well.

I was going by the NFL.com stats in 2001 for the 9th ranking and in looking over the team stats there the one that popped out for me as the biggest difference between then and now was the sack totals -- 48 in 2001. I can't even imagine 3 sacks a game now.

[HoosierCat]

The other point I would make is that, despite all the griping about the D, the Bengals have improved in the only department that really counts during the Marvin era: points allowed...

2003: 384

2004: 372

2005: 350

After watching what seemed to be total hemorraghing for the 2nd half of this season, those baby steps in the pts. allowed department over the past 3 years don't sit well.

Well, remember too that the starting point was the 456 points given up in 2002.