Justin Smith Is Worthless

[Spain]

You all crazy, You take All those sask leaders off the list and look at who is playing on the other side of them. Than you look at Geathers and you realize the guys by himself. .Oh but however Water boys apearence and weve seen a little pass rush coming. True are not true. Justins been playing very well on the line with Smith beside him. He has also picked up his pass rush because water boy is coming around like a , well water boy. Whe teams realize they have to deal with him then tell me about J Smith your Favourite playa. Football is a team game.

[HairOnFire]

Who's arguing that it's all about sacks? (at least I didn't)

He isn't a difference maker, not an impact player, hasn't had a sack in 7 games this season, and only a half sack in all of the 3 losses combined. Isn't that what a #4 over-all pick does? Makes an impact? Is a Pro Bowler at least once? Does something noteworthy once in a while?

He's had time to improve his game, and he is playing at his ceiling right now.

Just sucks we will probably have to watch him for another whole season - not a bad guy or a bad player - just tired of the same old, same old from him - not showing any of the #4 over-all potential - and THAT is what we were supposed to get when we picked him.

Instead we got an average 3-down player for the duration of his contract. If he were drafted in the 3rd or 4th round I probably wouldn't be complaining about it.

Just want someone with more short and long term potential in his spot.

I will end my ranting at that - i feel better now.

Just for the record, you mentioned Smith's draft position three more times in your latest post. Not that I'm surprised because his draft position is what Smith's biggest critics always mention. It's all they know. Regardless, who is responsible for Smith's high draft position? Is it the player? Because if it isn't the fault of the player you've got no complaint with Smith.

Why start a thread where you claim Smith is worthless, but include your opinions that he's an average to good player, a servicable starter, a rare 3-down DE, and a player you wouldn't be complaining about at all if he had been drafted later?

Last, I think we both know that if Smith were a waiver wire Cinderella you'd be raving about his play.

[HoosierCat]

Who's arguing that it's all about sacks? (at least I didn't)

He isn't a difference maker, not an impact player, hasn't had a sack in 7 games this season, and only a half sack in all of the 3 losses combined. Isn't that what a #4 over-all pick does? Makes an impact? Is a Pro Bowler at least once? Does something noteworthy once in a while?

He's had time to improve his game, and he is playing at his ceiling right now.

Just sucks we will probably have to watch him for another whole season - not a bad guy or a bad player - just tired of the same old, same old from him - not showing any of the #4 over-all potential - and THAT is what we were supposed to get when we picked him.

Instead we got an average 3-down player for the duration of his contract. If he were drafted in the 3rd or 4th round I probably wouldn't be complaining about it.

Just want someone with more short and long term potential in his spot.

I will end my ranting at that - i feel better now.

Just for the record, you mentioned Smith's draft position three more times in your latest post. Not that I'm surprised because his draft position is what Smith's biggest critics always mention. It's all they know. Regardless, who is responsible for Smith's high draft position? Is it the player? Because if it isn't the fault of the player you've got no complaint with Smith.

Why start a thread where you claim Smith is worthless, but include your opinions that he's an average to good player, a servicable starter, a rare 3-down DE, and a player you wouldn't be complaining about at all if he had been drafted later?

Last, I think we both know that if Smith were a waiver wire Cinderella you'd be raving about his play.

I gotta go with Hair on this one. Has Smith been super-DE? No, obviously not. But anyone who was paying attention that year knew he was unlikely to become one. He was the consensus best of a weak DE class, and has turned out to be a solid starter.

For my part, that's primarily what I look for in a high draft pick. I think the whole idea that a top pick must be a superstar or he's a bust is misguided.

[jjakq27]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/years/2001

Richard Seymour looks like he would have been the better pick but I wonder if he would have done any better on this team.

[Spain]

Dude if Justin would have gone to another team he would have been all pro. He got caught on a sinking ship. Those were some horrible years. Now that he is getting some talent around him watch. I bet he has a great end run. Him and water boy!

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Well either he was good enough to be taken #4 over-all, or he wasn't.

Weak DE class or not, people around here were glowing about him during draft time I do remember that.

I just think you can get better production out of that position - not just tackles and assists - from someone who's a hell of a lot less expensive than he is to boot.

For a 3 down lineman he is just not very good and that's sad for a top 5 pick in his 5th year. Spin it any way you want to.

People - there's a reason this defense blows - and you can't sit here and say that everyone on that side of the ball is good, or is a kepper, as a result, other than Ohalete.

There's a reason they struggle every week...they have some bad players who don't fit in well here. Justin Smith is one of them - a situational player or backup playing every down on defense for the last 4 years who was drafted #4 over-all - enough is enough of this guy.

One word describes the beer guzzling tweener: Under-achiever!

Dude if Justin would have gone to another team he would have been all pro. He got caught on a sinking ship. Those were some horrible years. Now that he is getting some talent around him watch. I bet he has a great end run. Him and water boy!

I'd rather see Pollack (water boy) starting in Smith's place any day! I don't care if he gets engulfed at times by RT's, Smith does any way! He never beats anyone! I bet 3/4's of his sacks the last 5 years have come from coverage sacks!

[derekshank]

Justin Smith is not Dwight Freeney... but if you look at Smith's rookie year, he was very promising. This was all because of his sack total (possibly the most over-rated stat in the history of football).

His sack total has come down from his rookie year, for a very obvious reason... the same reason that teams love to run the ball, or throw screens in Freeney's direction. Freeney is completely sold out on pass rushing. He is a worthless run stopper, because he uses speed and spins to get himself in a position to get to the QB. He doesn't really care if while doing this he is completely out of position to stop any other type of play other than a downfield pass.

The Colts have some great safeties that minimize the damage done by this over-playing of the pass rush... a luxury we clearly do not have. Smith was told by his coaches very early in his NFL career not to use his spin move. This was his bread and butter... now he is a good run stopping DE.

We don't have the other pieces in place for Smith to be a great pass rushing DE... but that doesn't really concern me. Sacking the QB is clearly not one of our highest priorities. If it was, we'd be raving about Smith because he'd be allowed to do his thing... but we'd be complaining even more about our run defense, and big yards given up on short screen passes.

Smith lacks those big sexy sack totals... but big sexy sack totals isn't what is being asked from him... or else Marvin Lewis wouldn't be handing him complements about his high level of play as of late.

[HairOnFire]

Spin it any way you want to.

I see no reason to spin it at all. The core point in your rant has to do with his draft position from years ago and his salary now. Neither point has anything to do with the level of his play on the field, which you admit you wouldn't be complaining about if he had been drafted in later rounds.

[HoosierCat]

People - there's a reason this defense blows

Yeah, and it ain't Justin Smith. Or did you miss Madeu's name on the IR list? Or Herring's, our other starting safety? How about the team virtually ignoring the DT position in both the draft and FA for several years running, except to sign low-round flyers and 3rd tier castoffs?

Sheesh. Smith isn't a problem. Get a grip.

[kingwilly]

HOF...the point is completely related to his play in the context of his draft position and his cost.

Justin Smiths prodcutivity does not warrant his current pay. It does not warrant giving him an extension unlesss it includes a pay-cut. Justin Smith was signed to 4th pick overall money and has delivered 3rd round pick productivity. There is the disparity. That is the key point.

[derekshank]

HOF...the point is completely related to his play in the context of his draft position and his cost.

Justin Smiths prodcutivity does not warrant his current pay. It does not warrant giving him an extension unlesss it includes a pay-cut. Justin Smith was signed to 4th pick overall money and has delivered 3rd round pick productivity. There is the disparity. That is the key point.

Point taken... but it is not as if that 4th pick money has kept us from getting other players. We still are ridiculously under the cap... so his pay is not effecting the team in a negative way.

Furthermore... We would love to get 3rd round pick productivity from our SS right now... so let's not act like he is "worthless" as the title of this forum proclaims... (while I still maintain that he is performing at a higher level than most of you think... just because the world is in love with the "sack" stat).

[HairOnFire]

His sack total has come down from his rookie year, for a very obvious reason... the same reason that teams love to run the ball, or throw screens in Freeney's direction. Freeney is completely sold out on pass rushing. He is a worthless run stopper, because he uses speed and spins to get himself in a position to get to the QB. He doesn't really care if while doing this he is completely out of position to stop any other type of play other than a downfield pass.

The Colts have some great safeties that minimize the damage done by this over-playing of the pass rush... a luxury we clearly do not have. Smith was told by his coaches very early in his NFL career not to use his spin move. This was his bread and butter... now he is a good run stopping DE.

We don't have the other pieces in place for Smith to be a great pass rushing DE... but that doesn't really concern me. Sacking the QB is clearly not one of our highest priorities. If it was, we'd be raving about Smith because he'd be allowed to do his thing... but we'd be complaining even more about our run defense, and big yards given up on short screen passes.

Smith lacks those big sexy sack totals... but big sexy sack totals isn't what is being asked from him... or else Marvin Lewis wouldn't be handing him complements about his high level of play as of late.

Great stuff. I've actually heard Tony Dungy admit that the Colt defense is a 10-man scheme with Freeney added to the mix as a freelancer. A modern day berserker. Now compare that to the numerous times Marvin Lewis has been quoted about how his down lineman's first and most important responsibility is gap control and you begin to understand the difference in how the two defenses operate. You also begin to understand why Duane Clemons is no longer starting despite the fact that he's the best pure pass rusher on the roster OR why Robert Geathers isn't producing the type of sack totals predicted after his performance as a role player the previous season.

[HairOnFire]

HOF...the point is completely related to his play in the context of his draft position and his cost.

Justin Smiths prodcutivity does not warrant his current pay. It does not warrant giving him an extension unlesss it includes a pay-cut. Justin Smith was signed to 4th pick overall money and has delivered 3rd round pick productivity. There is the disparity. That is the key point.

I disagree. In fact, I'd say these were the key points. First, Justin Smith is by far the best DE on this teams roster right now, so calling him worthless is just pie-eyed stupid. Second, no decision has to be made on giving Smith an extension now, and if that decision is made later...and the choice is to move on without him...then I'll support that decision provided the Bengals have a plan to substantially upgrade the position. If there is no plan to upgrade the position then you won't hear me supporting the move....unless Smith can get far more on the open market than the Bengals would be wise to pay him during his 2nd contract. But we don't know that to be true, do we? All we know right now is Justin Smith is as solid as he is unspectacular, and that's good enough to make him the best defensive lineman on this teams roster....as well as target for fan criticism based soley on his draft position from years ago.

My advice? Get over it.

[Bengalbob]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/years/2001

Richard Seymour looks like he would have been the better pick but I wonder if he would have done any better on this team.

Sorry, side note . . . I'd forgotten that CJ was the 8th WR picked that year. Any regrets anyone has about taking Justin in the 1st have to be made right by that phat pick in the 2nd!

Again, my apologies. Please go on with your Justin bashing . . .

[blurple thunder]

We had a guy like that.

Anyone notice how well Bell is doing in KC?

Getting rid of Kendrell was one of the best things the Steelers did. That has to be right up there with getting rid of Neil, Kordella, Washington and Chard Scott.

Teams will have those types of players unforunately. It's great to see them leave.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I think we're just picking Nits here, I don't really disagree with you Hair or Joisey, other than over what the definition of "worthless" is, and how sarcastically loose I'm being with the word in the subject.

DerekS - I understand that the front 4 here, are not rushing the QB on every down. But they are doing so quite often at the DE position when they don't have other responsibilities - almost every passing down they are rushing the QB. Smith isn't even getting doubled teamed like Freeney, not even close.

I am just asking what does Justin "produce" exactly as a DE? Does he contain well? (not really) Does he hurry the QB and get to the QB as often as the top DE's? (no) Does he EVER make tackles behind the LOS? (hardly ever) Does he makes plays consistently of some sort? Every week? (no) Is he getting doubled-teamed often? (not really) He does find the ball with his tenacity more than he normally would without his motor, and that counts for something, but I also wonder if he is just tired.

I respect your opinions, mine is just that I'd like to see Smith replaced asap (next year or after contract definitely). Or see some real competition at his position (and Geathers' spot - but I have hope for him).

For now I'd be happy seeing Fanene get some snaps, he's getting them at Justin's spot when active for a reason. Marvin decided against it last week for Clemons - who looks terrible lately.

For now I say...rotate Fanene into the mix every week and see what happens. At least give Smith a breather. Deactivate Clemons, veteran schmeteran, go with the youth on def.