Bratkowski to coach Detroit?

[AMC]

Brat had the O rolling in Seattle too before the Bengals, with Kitna at QB...

I like Zampese too, but to say he is running the show is a bit over-the-top...He will be an OC sooner or later, but this is Brat's O and has been even before Marvin was here....

I like the timing of the introduction of more no-huddle...They are working it in for the playoffs...

On the no-huddle topic....Marv Levy always took credit for inventing it....but it was all Wyche and Boomer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jjakq27]

I hope Brat doesn't go anywhere, but boy, if he got a QB prospect to go with those wideouts in Detroit, he could put together a scary offense.

I suspect that if Brat goes to Detroit, they will let Garcia leave and sign Kitna as a free agent. Thank goodness we won't have to play them for three or four more years

Don't forget, Casey Bramlet is still out there too. Seriously, anytime you have that kind of change it could affect the team. I like Kitna but if there is a chance he could start, I wouldn't blame him for going elsewhere. As for Bratkowski, I think his success here has opened some eyes around the league. In the long run I hope this works out for Zampese to become OC here. I would hate to have him leave to become an OC somewhere and then Brat get a HC job after that. We'd be up a creek then.

[buck3y3d]

No doubt. It's f**king unbelievable. I haven't seen one post about how well he has called the past few games. Where do people think the "no-huddle" came from? We have completely pissed on top 5 defenses the past couple weeks.

The no-huddle came from Sam Wyche. Some of the play calls are unbelievable. A fade on 3rd and goal from the 2. You guys act like Bratowski makes this offense. Palmer and the o-line make this offense. The man behind Palmer is Zampese. He is the true genius of the offense and should be offensive coordinator. Sure we are a top 3 offense, but we should be 1 or 2 with the Colts and by a wide margin. The talent on this offense is unbelievable. Brat can't call a game. His game plans are good because we all see what he can do in the 1st half of games, but he doesn't adjust. He is not a good gameday coach. He is repetitive, predictible, and not nearly agressive enough.

Cmon you can say that about any o-coordinator in this league. How do you know that Zampese is running the show?

Brat is the architect of the entire offensive scheme and the passing game in particular - and Palmer and Kitna have bothed flourished in it - before Zampese got here.

But again not sure why anyone would actually take that crap job in Detroit unless they were desperate or didn't foresee getting another HC opportunity down the road.

Brat is not a sideline HC type, he is making a name for himself here and I think he'd be crazy to leave for a position like that just yet. If i were him I'd give it 2-3 more years here before making any moves.

I never said Zampese was running the show, I said he is the genius behind Palmer. This is not even arguable. Every article I read Palmer is quoted as giving the credit to Zampese. Zampese will be an offensive coordinator, and I for one hope it is here. Brat is good as a game planner, but he doesn't adjust. This is the NFL and you need both assets.

[HoosierCat]

I think that Brat's biggest liability is the same as one mentioned late last night about Peyton Manning by Madden. Maadden observed that it's hard for Manning to slow himself down; he wants to be back in the pocket slinging the ball downfield. (This was said in the context of why Manning kept throwing late in the Bengals game.)

I think it's the same for Brat: he has a cannon (Palmer) finally and his first, second, and last instinct is to use it. He didn't build this awesome vertical passing attack so he could play a run-oriented, short-high-percentage-passing game. IMHO that's why he often doesn't seem to run it enough -- or at least run it enough with boring old Rudi versus flashy Perry -- why he never seems to use the TE, etc. It just isn't his style, it isn't his offense, it isn't his instinct.

I think if he was made a head coach right now he would end up as a sort of junior varsity version of Mike Martz: a guy who has his system and will ride it down in flames even when it's clear it isn't working (like Martz did in the SB vs. NE). I think Clayton is right he's a possibility, but only because any hot OC would get a look. It's just my opinion but I don't think he'd do well.

[Stripes]

Agreed 100% JC, except for one minor detail.

The Martz comparison is a good one, though I don't think that would quite be Brat's mindset as a head coach. Martz believes in his offensive scheme to the core, and refuses to make changes at any time due to simple arrogance. I think Brat would have this issue as well, but more because he really thinks he can make a failing plan work just through repetition and execution, but without the arrogance and idiocy of Martz.

[jjakq27]

Agreed 100% JC, except for one minor detail.

The Martz comparison is a good one, though I don't think that would quite be Brat's mindset as a head coach. Martz believes in his offensive scheme to the core, and refuses to make changes at any time due to simple arrogance. I think Brat would have this issue as well, but more because he really thinks he can make a failing plan work just through repetition and execution, but without the arrogance and idiocy of Martz.

I heard some of the morning guys saying the same thing about Cowher. He believes in the smash-mouth ball-control offense so much that it hinders their ability when they are behind like last night. Ben should have been throwing more in the second half.

[Kazkal]

If we lose brat we could make kitna the OC he should know system well enuff;)

[HairOnFire]

I think it's the same for Brat: he has a cannon (Palmer) finally and his first, second, and last instinct is to use it. He didn't build this awesome vertical passing attack so he could play a run-oriented, short-high-percentage-passing game. IMHO that's why he often doesn't seem to run it enough -- or at least run it enough with boring old Rudi versus flashy Perry -- why he never seems to use the TE, etc. It just isn't his style, it isn't his offense, it isn't his instinct.

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Brat was on the Bengals pregame show this week and was asked point blank about fan favorite Chris Perry. Brat claimed the reason Perry isn't used more is directly due to how much he values the power running game that Rudi provides and the way it wears downs defenses and kills the clock. He went so far as to say that finding opportunities for Perry was "pretty hard" due to Rudi's history of getting stronger in the 2nd half of games. He made it clear that getting Rudi MORE carries was becoming a priority, which he promptly demonstrated against the Ravens.

[bengalindian]

My bad. I thought the Titans hired the guy from Ole Miss, but I guess it was the Volunteers. On that note, I'm guessing Norm Chow is still the OC at Tennessee.

Plus, I'm all for Brat. The Bengals have the second best offense in the league, and Brat's a big reason for it. If he were to leave though, Norm Chow would be an awesome pickup.

[HoosierCat]

I think it's the same for Brat: he has a cannon (Palmer) finally and his first, second, and last instinct is to use it. He didn't build this awesome vertical passing attack so he could play a run-oriented, short-high-percentage-passing game. IMHO that's why he often doesn't seem to run it enough -- or at least run it enough with boring old Rudi versus flashy Perry -- why he never seems to use the TE, etc. It just isn't his style, it isn't his offense, it isn't his instinct.

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Brat was on the Bengals pregame show this week and was asked point blank about fan favorite Chris Perry. Brat claimed the reason Perry isn't used more is directly due to how much he values the power running game that Rudi provides and the way it wears downs defenses and kills the clock. He went so far as to say that finding opportunities for Perry was "pretty hard" due to Rudi's history of getting stronger in the 2nd half of games. He made it clear that getting Rudi MORE carries was becoming a priority, which he promptly demonstrated against the Ravens.

Fair enough. It was just my impression based on watching the Bengals offense the past few years. I could be wrong. Even if Brat did turn out to be Mike Martz Jr., Martz still had some pretty good years. For the record, I don't think he hates the power running game or anything...it just isn't his favorite flavor of ice cream. My gut just says Brat isn't quite ready for the HC job...needs a bit more seasoning.

[jamesbrooks21]

No doubt. It's f**king unbelievable. I haven't seen one post about how well he has called the past few games. Where do people think the "no-huddle" came from? We have completely pissed on top 5 defenses the past couple weeks.

The no-huddle came from Sam Wyche. Some of the play calls are unbelievable. A fade on 3rd and goal from the 2. You guys act like Bratowski makes this offense. Palmer and the o-line make this offense. The man behind Palmer is Zampese. He is the true genius of the offense and should be offensive coordinator. Sure we are a top 3 offense, but we should be 1 or 2 with the Colts and by a wide margin. The talent on this offense is unbelievable. Brat can't call a game. His game plans are good because we all see what he can do in the 1st half of games, but he doesn't adjust. He is not a good gameday coach. He is repetitive, predictible, and not nearly agressive enough.

No s**t! I know where the no-huddle came from. Who incorporated this into our offense??? Bratkowski.

The Colts were caught completely off-guard and it was obviously one of the key reasons we hung in there with them. Penalties killed two other drives in the second half too.

I have never acted like it's just Brat that makes this offense, I unlike you know that it's a collective effort. It's people like you who think we are the number three offense in the NFL despite him. He has nothing at all to do with it. You are really reaching when you are giving Sam Wyche credit for the 2005 Bengals running the no-huddle.

He doesn't adjust? How silly. We have scored more points in the second half of the game in 5 of our 11 contests. We didn't against Minnesota because we grinded the clock out-no need to score just run the clock.

So basically we have scored more points in the 2nd half of 50 percent of our games. But, no he didn't have anything to do with that.

If he is so repetitive and predictable in a game of tendencies then how do we ever score. Oh yeah, I forgot, it's talent alone. Not aggressive? He has taken shots down the field winning in the fourth quarter and people like you say he can't manage the clock. Which one is it? He has thrown screens to Rudi that were huge that defenses were totally not expecting. He has used Perry very well too. He catches too much slack and doesn't get any credit whatsoever. He doesn't deserve all the credit but acknowledge him when he calls a good game since you are so quick to criticize.

[andybren]

My bad. I thought the Titans hired the guy from Ole Miss, but I guess it was the Volunteers. On that note, I'm guessing Norm Chow is still the OC at Tennessee.

Plus, I'm all for Brat. The Bengals have the second best offense in the league, and Brat's a big reason for it. If he were to leave though, Norm Chow would be an awesome pickup.

Norm Chow is gunning for a head coaching job, probably at the college level. He was a leading candidate for the Syracuse job (the new AD there was former Asst. AD at USC) but got passed up for not having NFL experience. Why else would you leave USC to work for the Titans?

[andybren]

In my book, Brat gets tons of credit for the success of the offense. He had Kitna, Chad, and TJ here before Marvin was even in the picture.

That being said, I don't like how he calls a game. When you've got Rudi Johnson in your arsenal, how is it even possible for Kyle Boller to score 3 touchdowns with 16+ minutes left in the game? And why did it take so long to get the vertical passing game going last year, once it was clear that Carson had things under control?

In a way, Brat might be a better head coach since he could implement a system and let somebody else operate it. He might understand the "parts" better than anybody in the room, but he doesn't see how the whole "machine" comes together. And how to run it at optimal levels.

As for Kitna, I think he would be an awesome quarterback coach. And I think that would be the only reason he would take a job starting for a team with an sub-standard offensive line...if he could see the chance to move into a coaching position.

P.S. Playing back-ups with only a two score lead? Did I mention Kyle Boller scored 3 touchdowns in the last 16+ minutes last week?

[andybren]

In watching/listening to all the Peyton Manning adulation, and hearing about Carson running a no-huddle offense, I can't help drawing comparisons to this topic. I ask the following (possibly rhetorical) questions:

How much credit goes to the head coach and/or offensive coordinator, when a talented quarterback successfully runs his system? What if it is at levels beyond what the coach/coordinator could have reasonably expected?

Do offensive systems that allow for a quarterback to audible at the line/call plays/run a no-huddle essentially "hitch their wagon" to the talent of one or two players and take a great deal of 'traditional' coaching out of the equation?

If a coach does less work on game day than his counterparts on the other side of the field, does he deserve a smaller portion of credit when things go right? (Isn't this the case when a mediocre QB merely keeps his team from losing?)

How many everyday NFL fans could name the Colts' offensive coordinator? Does Tony Dungy's status as a "defensive-minded" coach keep him from getting more of the props for the Colts' offensive success?

If you're really good at your job, how much credit does your boss get for giving you that job and showing you how to do it? What if you only see your boss once a year at annual performance evaluations? (Okay, that's probably a little too much. I'm done on the subject. Promise.)

[schweinhart]

Real hard to imagine a team would hire Brat as a head coach. His personality is suited for the booth.

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Brat was on the Bengals pregame show this week and was asked point blank about fan favorite Chris Perry. Brat claimed the reason Perry isn't used more is directly due to how much he values the power running game that Rudi provides and the way it wears downs defenses and kills the clock. He went so far as to say that finding opportunities for Perry was "pretty hard" due to Rudi's history of getting stronger in the 2nd half of games. He made it clear that getting Rudi MORE carries was becoming a priority, which he promptly demonstrated against the Ravens.

If this was from Bengals Weekly, Hair, that's not what I was hearing. The impression I took away from that bit was that Brat runs Rudi because he has to in order to give Rudi the number of carries he needs "to keep him happy." There's been times when Rudi has vanished when he was rolling and should have been kept rolling. I'd say if Brat had his way (and Palmer too) Perry would be in all the time for the pass options he provides.

[EdwardG]

I did not like Bratkoski in his first couple years, as he never called any play-action, and that really hurt the team. However, he has evolved into a well-rounded play caller, and I hope he doesn't leave.

[HairOnFire]

If this was from Bengals Weekly, Hair, that's not what I was hearing. The impression I took away from that bit was that Brat runs Rudi because he has to in order to give Rudi the number of carries he needs "to keep him happy." There's been times when Rudi has vanished when he was rolling and should have been kept rolling. I'd say if Brat had his way (and Palmer too) Perry would be in all the time for the pass options he provides.

Well, isn't it great how we can watch the same program and come to completely different conclusions?

I didn't make very much out of Brats remarks concerning keeping Rudi happy. Coaches aren't paid to keep players happy, and I think Brat made an argument for Rudi starting that had nothing to do with how often he smiles. That said, I did consider it interesting when Brat said that he was inclined to use Perry more only when the Bengals were facing defenses that were having prolonged success controlling Rudi OR when the Bengals had a large lead and were facing stacked defenses vulnerable to draw plays. IMHO both are change of pace situations that don't come remotely close to suggesting a change in starters is being considered or desired.

Last, if your conclusions about Brat's pre-Raven game comments were correct shouldn't we have seen it reflected on the field? Instead, Rudi received more carries than he's gotten since the opener while Perry settled for a handful of chances on the ground and thru the air. More importantly, Perry managed to produce absolutely nothing on those plays....hardly making a case for him being considered for a starting role.

[Columbusbengal]

Real hard to imagine a team would hire Brat as a head coach. His personality is suited for the booth.

I totally agree with this. I heard yesterday that Millen is looking for a disciplinarian. I don't think Brat fits into that mold.

The impression I took away from that bit was that Brat runs Rudi because he has to in order to give Rudi the number of carries he needs "to keep him happy." There's been times when Rudi has vanished when he was rolling and should have been kept rolling. I'd say if Brat had his way (and Palmer too) Perry would be in all the time for the pass options he provides.

Well, if that's true, I would suspect that Rudi will be gone next year in favor of Perry. Whatever Palmer wants, Palmer will get. I'm not going to argue with him either

[HairOnFire]

I'd say if Brat had his way (and Palmer too) Perry would be in all the time for the pass options he provides.

I'd say there's absolutely no evidence supporting this idea. After all, Brat calls the plays that determine which players get on the field and how often their number is called. To that end, Rudi continues to start and continues to get the bulk of touches. Perry gets the scraps. In fact, Brat said point blank that getting Perry more oportunities was hard to do....even though he calls the plays and determines the personel being used. As for Palmer, he has the opportunity to change the original play sent in by Brat and evidence suggests he leans heavily upon Rudi when calling audibles.

[redsfan2]

I did not like Bratkoski in his first couple years, as he never called any play-action, and that really hurt the team. However, he has evolved into a well-rounded play caller, and I hope he doesn't leave.

Have to agree. " Evolve " is the key word here. The players .... coaches .... and Brat have grown ( or evolved ) into the offensive package that we see now on the field.

Brat ( as I recall ) wasn't exactly anyones favorite coming into this job, and for the first few years he didn't do a heck of a lot to silence his naysayers. Still hasn't evidently seeing as how we're having this conversation .

Two ways to look at this .... First couple of years Brat was doing what he could with what he had. He wasn't using all aspects of the offense that he envisioned because he didn't have people he needed to do so. Now he does and this is the result. Nobody mentioned the improvement in the red zone which has been a lot better too.

Second point that could be taken is that with the people we have on offense now most any OC in the league could have them at the #3 spot and further with better playcalling on offense this group could and should be the undefeated team instead of Indy.

I think there's some measure of truth to both points. The offense has grown under his direction ... and the results are hard to argue with. As to the wins ...... The Colts are the only team I've seen really " beat " the Bengals. In the games against the Jags and the Steelers, it was more the Bengals shooting themselves in the foot than it was anything the opponenets were doing to them.

I'm not in a hurry to see Brat or Bresnahan leave. All you have to do is look at the Pats to see why.

[jamesbrooks21]

No doubt. It's f**king unbelievable. I haven't seen one post about how well he has called the past few games. Where do people think the "no-huddle" came from? We have completely pissed on top 5 defenses the past couple weeks.

The no-huddle came from Sam Wyche. Some of the play calls are unbelievable. A fade on 3rd and goal from the 2. You guys act like Bratowski makes this offense. Palmer and the o-line make this offense. The man behind Palmer is Zampese. He is the true genius of the offense and should be offensive coordinator. Sure we are a top 3 offense, but we should be 1 or 2 with the Colts and by a wide margin. The talent on this offense is unbelievable. Brat can't call a game. His game plans are good because we all see what he can do in the 1st half of games, but he doesn't adjust. He is not a good gameday coach. He is repetitive, predictible, and not nearly agressive enough.

Cmon you can say that about any o-coordinator in this league. How do you know that Zampese is running the show?

Brat is the architect of the entire offensive scheme and the passing game in particular - and Palmer and Kitna have bothed flourished in it - before Zampese got here.

But again not sure why anyone would actually take that crap job in Detroit unless they were desperate or didn't foresee getting another HC opportunity down the road.

Brat is not a sideline HC type, he is making a name for himself here and I think he'd be crazy to leave for a position like that just yet. If i were him I'd give it 2-3 more years here before making any moves.

I never said Zampese was running the show, I said he is the genius behind Palmer. This is not even arguable. Every article I read Palmer is quoted as giving the credit to Zampese. Zampese will be an offensive coordinator, and I for one hope it is here. Brat is good as a game planner, but he doesn't adjust. This is the NFL and you need both assets.

And I have heard Palmer credit Brat more than I have heard him credit Zampese. What do you mean he don't adjust? Back up what you say with something supporting that statement. Again, as I said earlier , we have scored more points in the second half of games 5 out of 11 times. Three or four of the ones we didn't there was no need to. I think Zampese is great too but give Brat some credit he is a reason(notice I didn't say "the reason") we are one of the most potent offenses in the NFL. But according to your argument it is only because of our personnel.

[schweinhart]

Last, if your conclusions about Brat's pre-Raven game comments were correct shouldn't we have seen it reflected on the field? Instead, Rudi received more carries than he's gotten since the opener while Perry settled for a handful of chances on the ground and thru the air. More importantly, Perry managed to produce absolutely nothing on those plays....hardly making a case for him being considered for a starting role.

Probably would see more Perry on the field than Rudi if they had any confidence in Perry to run stronger better between the tackles.

But the case is there that they already view Perry as more than just a 3rd down back -- call it change of pace if you like, but why change the pace when what you're running works like a charm? In any event, Perry's starting his share of series if not games.

The best evidence of that I can point to would be the splits -- according to NFL.com stats more than half of Perry's runs are on 1st down and slightly less than his passes are, which is all above and beyond the frequency with which a 3rd down back is used.

Palmer had an interesting comment about the 3rd down back question. It's on the team site in his interview yesterday and Palmer's response bascially was that they had a 3rd down back -- Kenny Watson -- and he said Watson is missed but Perry has filled in for him. This is no jab at Perry by Palmer IMO, though, but rather Palmer's way of saying a 3rd down back is primarily a blocker. I think that right there is a pretty good indicator that Palmer views Perry first and foremost as on offensive weapon of starting claiber -- the flash in Thunder & Lightning if you will.

But I also definitely agree that Perry was ineffective on the runs he had vs. Ratbirds last week, which he has been all season vs. North teams (12 carries for 16 yards). They have not used Perry against North teams even remotely close to what they've used him against other the teams....But when they did...ie the last Pitt game...I thought they robbed the team of its best chance to win, which was keeping Rudi in the Power I and either running him behind JJ with the success they had on the 1st 2 drives of the game or passing to their gifted corps of WRs if the Steelers kept 7 or 8 in the box.

[schweinhart]

I'd say if Brat had his way (and Palmer too) Perry would be in all the time for the pass options he provides.

I'd say there's absolutely no evidence supporting this idea. After all, Brat calls the plays that determine which players get on the field and how often their number is called. To that end, Rudi continues to start and continues to get the bulk of touches. Perry gets the scraps. In fact, Brat said point blank that getting Perry more oportunities was hard to do....even though he calls the plays and determines the personel being used. As for Palmer, he has the opportunity to change the original play sent in by Brat and evidence suggests he leans heavily upon Rudi when calling audibles.

Again...the proof is in the pudding.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493027/splits/2005

The splits show Perry getting the majority of his work on 1st down -- which is the staple of a starter, not the scraps of a backup. No doubt Rudi is the starter and gets most of the 1st down work and it damn well should be that way.

Now, granted, Perry gets work in the 2 minute, has got some late work w/ big lead, and other work down by 2 or 3 scores -- work as in 1st down work that skews the numbers slightly with refernece to how he is considered by Brat. But I've seen it more than I've wanted to see on 1st down when Chris Perry is out there in the backfield over Rudi for what I lovingly call the Chris "SUPERSTAR" Perry package.

[HairOnFire]

Probably would see more Perry on the field than Rudi if they had any confidence in Perry to run stronger better between the tackles.

But the case is there that they already view Perry as more than just a 3rd down back -- call it change of pace if you like, but why change the pace when what you're running works like a charm? In any event, Perry's starting his share of series if not games.

Until the Bengal can have faith that Perry can be a between-the-tackles runner I believe strongly he'll never be considered for the starters job. Yeah, he may inherit the role due to injury, but he'll never earn it outright until he can give the Bengals the physical presence that Rudi offers.

As for the idea of Perry starting series, as opposed to games, that's a far different point than the one we first debated. I'm strongly in favor of spelling Rudi from time to time and stated before the season began that I felt he wore down last season. I also suggested he might be just as productive as he was last year despite getting fewer carries, and I believe that's proving to be true. But again, you're now attempting to define Perry's contributions in a true backup role instead of making the argument that Brat actually wants him to start.

If Brat really wanted Perry to start he'd make it happen.

[jjakq27]

Let's give Brat some credit for yesterday too. He mixed in the run well with the pass compared to the first game. And somehow they were able to make Polamalu a non-factor for almost the entire game.