Kick-Offs Suck

[bengalskyspy]

I live Shane's consistency on FG's, but kick-offs still a problem. Yes, they have been deeper, but not high enuf. Returns past the 30yd line several times cuz our guys were not there yet. This really gave Houston a boost.

[Stripes]

I disagree. Shayne's kickoffs have lacked some hangtime, but not so much that he should be blamed. When the Bengals have given up long returns, it has been because the gunners haven't been able to get through their blockers and to the ball on a consistent basis.

That said, many times this season the coverage unit has been excellent in stuffing returns inside the twenty, much aided by the fact the Graham's kickoffs have improved.

[San Antonio Bengal]

If it's not one thing it's another. Shane is getting the kickoffs deeper, so now there has to be something new to complain about, huh? Cincinnati's kick-off numbers are about in the middle of the league, not great, but not terrible either.

[scott91575]

I thought it was pretty good for the Bears game, and they have a decent return team. Not the best in the NFL, but not bad.

[walshfan]

We led the league in kickoff return average with 16.9 before last week.. His kicking is fine.....sometimes the tackling isnt....

[skyline]

Yep, Graham is getting the job done. I'm sure if you ask him he'll say it's still a work in progress, but I'm very satisfied with the improvement over last season.

[bengalboomer7]

I personally watched this VERY closely at the texans game, and it's a problem. Shayne is having to make tackles because he can't kick it high enough to give his guys time to get down there. I'd rather see him kick it high to the seven then a line drive to the goalline

[BengalszoneBilly]

If it's not one thing it's another. Shane is getting the kickoffs deeper, so now there has to be something new to complain about, huh? Cincinnati's kick-off numbers are about in the middle of the league, not great, but not terrible either.

Ain't it the truth San Antonio? If they aren't whining about penalties, they're whining about Shaynes kickoff hang times, or something else not worth wasting a good whine on. If this keeps up we'll need to change this Forums name to:

[schweinhart]

Graham made one helluva tackle.

I thought the problem w/ the 1st 2 kicks that went into the end zone had more to do w/ the Texans KR Jerome Mathis. It looked like the coverage got there in time to stop Mathis well before the 35 yd line both times, but Mathis just made the moves to get free...Plus Mathis might be faster than any other NFL player.

Overall, the Bengals got an excellent kick off team that is even better when Tab Perry guns.

[NYBengalfan]

I personally dont think that it is a problem. they just had a bad game on kickoffs against Houston.

By the way... did anyone see Shayne's tackle in that game that saved maybe not a TD but atleast another 30yds.

[Jet23]

I will take FG consistency over kickoffs any day, but his kickoffs have improved. When Graham came out last year and said he was going to work on his leg strength over the offseason, my first thought was Doug Pelfrey. He took a lot of crap for his kickoffs and after he spent so much time working on it, he lost accuracy. Then was cut in favor of Neil Rackers (who now appears to be the next coming of Jim Bakken). It appears as if Shane has improved his kicks, while maintaining his accuracy. This is good.

I am surprised that more teams do not look for punters that can kickoff. The Jim Breech / Lee Johnson combo was a good situation. Breech was money inside of 50 yards and Johnson could spell him on long FGs and handle the kickoff duties. It seems as if other than a few very good punters, you can pretty much throw everyone else in a hat. There has to be someone out there that can punt as well as some of these dudes and nail kickoffs.

And where the heck is the coffin corner? If I see one more guy try to down a punt inside the 1 inch line, only to take a touch-back, resulting in a net 18 yards, I am going to scream!

[HairOnFire]

I think the only argument anyone can make for Rackers over Opie is over the matter of very long FGA's, and even this point is dubious. Marvin has proven he starts thinking about winning the battle of field position from the moment he awakens and as a result the only way the Bengals could take advantage of the one true advantage Rackers has over Graham would come as the end of a game the Bengals were trailing and attempting a FG over 50 yards in length. That's a rarity.

[jrandom42]

I think the only argument anyone can make for Rackers over Opie is over the matter of very long FGA's, and even this point is dubious. Marvin has proven he starts thinking about winning the battle of field position from the moment he awakens and as a result the only way the Bengals could take advantage of the one true advantage Rackers has over Graham would come as the end of a game the Bengals were trailing and attempting a FG over 50 yards in length. That's a rarity.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Shayne over 80% on FGs over 50 yards since he's been with the Bengals? Isn't that pretty well above average?

Besides, Rackers didn't do so well kicking a rock-hard ball in December at PBS anyway.

[BengalSIS]

<shakes head>

Still third in league I think with 18+ yard return avg I think. I'm not worried. The first two kicks in Houston game were plenty high enough. We should have stopped them inside 20. We missed. The third kick that we stopped them at 20, was a line drive kick. Somebody wanna explain that.

I had to defend shayne all last year about why the shorter higher kicks were just fine. Now that he is giving the distance people screamed for, people want the high ones back....ugh

As for Neil, he's kicking in different conditions. That being said, he does have the stronger leg, no doubt. But for 98% of kicks (FG) it doesn't matter.

Don't make me go get stats...

Really..I don't have time

[ArmyBengal]

<shakes head>

Still third in league I think with 18+ yard return avg I think. I'm not worried. The first two kicks in Houston game were plenty high enough. We should have stopped them inside 20. We missed. The third kick that we stopped them at 20, was a line drive kick. Somebody wanna explain that.

I had to defend shayne all last year about why the shorter higher kicks were just fine. Now that he is giving the distance people screamed for, people want the high ones back....ugh

As for Neil, he's kicking in different conditions. That being said, he does have the stronger leg, no doubt. But for 98% of kicks (FG) it doesn't matter.

Don't make me go get stats...

Really..I don't have time

I was waiting for you to respond to this and agree. People just need something to complain about... Last year it wasn't deep enough and Shayne worked that issue. Now its not high enough. Holy crap people, can't you just be happy with the fact we have someone that 99.9% of the time he lines up there is no issue ?? What next, its long enough and deep enough, but there should have been a perfect spiral on his kicks as well ?? Neil who ?? For real, its like bitching about Leon not being here anymore, except worse !!

WHODEY !!!

[Stripes]

So far this season, Shayne has been a statiscal top three kicker in this league. We all knew that he is capable of that, because he is so consistent. The one MINOR issue he had least season has improved substantially, and it has helped our coverage teams to play very well.

[Dan2330]

I live Shane's consistency on FG's, but kick-offs still a problem. Yes, they have been deeper, but not high enuf. Returns past the 30yd line several times cuz our guys were not there yet. This really gave Houston a boost.

Once again, you have to love that this is one of the only things we have to 'bitch' about.... after 4 weeks a couple of years ago no one would even mention our kicker not being able to get enough hang time in kickoffs, what types of things would we have been talking about.... hmm...possibly a 0-4 record or having the worst defense in the league or no good quarterback....

[BengalSIS]

you were saying?

Graham satisfied with kickoffs

Foes being kept inside their 20

By Josh Katzowitz

Post staff reporter

With an 87.1 percent success rate last season, Shayne Graham was one of the top place-kickers in the NFL. This year, he leads the AFC kickers with 38 points (nine of 10 field goals and 11 of 11 point after attempts). It's safe to say Graham is pretty good at kicking field goals.

But blasting a ball through the uprights isn't what fills the fifth-year Bengals veteran with the most satisfaction.

Instead, Graham is content when this happens: on the kickoff after a Cincinnati score, he plows the football high and deep into an opponents' territory - maybe, just maybe the boot has carried into the end zone - the Bengals coverage team races down the field, and they tackle the returner before he can cross his team's 20-yard line.

That, for Graham, is a good feeling. As good a feeling as any in football.

"It's something we take pride in as a unit and as individuals on that unit," Graham said. "For me to kind of have a rap as not being a great kickoff guy, I want to change that. I like making field goals - that's what gets the most attention. But the kickoffs are something that when I walk back into the locker room and (Bengals coach) Marvin (Lewis) says good game, I don't want to feel inside of my head like (it's) a consolation. Good field goals, but your kickoffs need work. He's never said that but I don't want to feel that way."

Truth is, Graham's kickoffs needed work. Last year, when Graham's field-goal accuracy rated him fifth-best in the NFL, his kickoffs were less than impressive. He's changed that perception this year.

On Sunday, in the Bengals' 16-10 win against the Texans, Graham twice blasted kickoffs into the end zone, another one was caught on Houston's goal line and one other was taken on the 1-yard line. True, he still hasn't recorded a touchback this season, but helped immensely by his newfound leg strength, Cincinnati leads the NFL in forcing opponents to begin inside the 20-yard line (it's also seventh overall in kickoff coverage defense).

"He's kicking the ball a little farther, and he's trying to give us the kicks that we want," Bengals safety Reggie Myles said. "He's working to get better at it, and he has improved a whole lot from last year. The balls are being kicked farther, and we're making more tackles inside the 20."

All this from a kicker who missed much of the preseason with a sore right groin, an injury that certainly doesn't sound good for a player who plies his trade with his legs. But as Graham was missing preseason games, he also was rehabbing his leg and making it stronger.

"Early on in the rehab phase, (assistant athletic trainer) Billy Brooks did a lot of work with him in core stability work and a lot of flexibility work - single-leg balance," said Chip Morton, the Bengals strength and conditioning coach. "We do a lot of core strength - anything between the knees and the armpits. I'm talking about the torso, the groin, the abductors, the outer hips, the gluts, your abs, your rotating muscles and your back extensors. That's all sewn together and interconnected in movement skills. We attack that area in many different ways."

The strength work for Graham is not unusual. That core work is used for everybody else on the Bengals roster as well, but for Graham, time spent in the weight room has yielded better production this season.

"For Shayne, it was our normal program, but we spent a lot of time doing the things he needed to get back to where he needed to be," Morton said. "We changed the workouts a little bit. We're always trying to upgrade. Maybe, we're hitting on some things that are helping. I'm sure it's also the coaching from Darrin (Simmons, the special teams coach) with technique. I'm sure some of it's maturity on Shayne's part - he's a year older and a year wiser. It's a combination of all those things. One year later, it all comes together."

Lewis, for one, has noticed.

"I would tell him 'Your kickoffs aren't good enough,'" Lewis said. "He knows that it's part of his job, and it's an important part of his job in both the height and the distance. The time we need the ball in the air is critical. I think we learned with the injury he suffered in camp that he has become stronger with the injury. The rehab and the things we've been doing with him during the week have made him better. It's worked well."

In turn, that gives Graham confidence. He might not have the strongest leg in the NFL, but now, when he walks off the field following a kickoff, he feels much better about himself.

"For the most part, my confidence used to be up and down on kickoffs, but right now, my body feels strong," Graham said. "I've done some extra working out that I haven't normally done throughout the years. That's during the season, because I've had some injuries and I want to keep that from happening. It feels fine and I actually feel stronger now because of the workouts. I want to keep that up throughout the year, do extra running, keep it in shape, and continue to get the ball down there."

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...050312/1035/SPT

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

I personally dont think that it is a problem. they just had a bad game on kickoffs against Houston.

By the way... did anyone see Shayne's tackle in that game that saved maybe not a TD but atleast another 30yds.

That's the way I wanted our linebackers tackling last year! No sissy kicker cut out the legs tackle, but a BAM and wrap tackle. I couldn't believe it when they said it was Graham.

[BengalSIS]

Shayne loves takin out the runner with a good tackle. I almost wish he didn't.

[derekshank]

I personally watched this VERY closely at the texans game, and it's a problem. Shayne is having to make tackles because he can't kick it high enough to give his guys time to get down there. I'd rather see him kick it high to the seven then a line drive to the goalline

Well, you must not have been watching it THAT closely... because it was only the first two kickoffs that Shayne had to make the tackles... and it was not due to Shayne outkicking the coverage, it was poor special teams play. Guys were allowing themselves to be blocked and juked way too easily.

After those first two kickoffs (where they managed to get the ball on the 34 and 36 yard lines), They managed getting the ball to the 19, the 10, and the 22. That is an average starting point of the 17 yard line for those kickoffs. So the problem must have worked itself out. If Shayne was out kicking the coverage, it would be a continued problem, not something that happened twice in the game.

In fact, even with the two bad kickoffs, they were only averaging getting to the 23 yard line. That is hardly anything to complain about.

In regards to the rest of the season, the Browns game was by far the worst. We allowed them to get out past the 30 three times, but because of the good coverage on the other kickoffs, they averaged only the 25 yard line. The Minnesota game was great, because 5 times we kept them inside the 20, and their average starting position was the 19. Chicago was decent. They got past the 30 only once, but were usually past the 20... and average being on the 24 yard line.

So in 4 games the average starting position of our opponents is the 23 yard line. As others have said... it's decent. Nothing to brag about, nothing to worry about. He's fine. Personally I'm glad that when the coverage does fail, he can tackle, so that 34 yard line doesn't end up being the endzone.

[BengalByTheBay]

Any thread that gets SIS all fired up makes me smile . IMO - Lil' G is kicking ass again this year. I have not for one second missed the world's greatest pre-game kicker (Rackers), but am happy he's doing okay in the desert. We remain better off.

[bengalskyspy]

For those of you thinking I was just looking for something to complain about, well, you really have no clue. I was simply pointing out that the kicks were not high enough for the team get down field. One the posters actually said that we missed a tackle at the 30 yd line... duh! By the time our guys got there the runner had a huge head of steam. Dudes, when your kicker is making the tackle there is a freakin problem. I love how some of you homeristic dimwits want to hide you heads in the sand by using stats indicating our kicking game is ok. The first home game against the Vikings, he was pooch kicking the ball the whole time. That was actually more effective than driving it 1 or 2 yds into the end-zone.

ML and SG know I am right about this. I love SG, and expect and hope he will improve.

[BengalSIS]

You still need to watch the replays. The first two kicks were not line drives and there was every opportunity to stop them near the 20. Hell, the third kick was lower and we stopped them at the 21 I think. And ML is happy with his kicks right now.

I do understand you aren't saying you dislike Shayne, but you are off the mark here. He did not outkick coverage. And the fact cinci is leading in kicks downed inside 20, and 7th in overall coverage...tells me that he is doing better than most. So I'm happy.

[schweinhart]

Yeah I'm glad the kicks were in the endzone. The coverage was there, just couldn't get a hold of the speedy Mathis the 1st 2 times. Ol' Shayne was there to take care of biz on the tackling end, though.