smizzy Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 Well I guess we can shower him with hall of fame accolades without any kind of championship win with two playoff wins. If that's the degradation you want to give the hall, then count me out as this being the best sport in America. Point is...for a guy who cant win an important game....he just won 2.They might not have been championship games but they were important games none the less. No, I mean what I said. Remove the stats and he's worse than Tom Brady, Steve McNair, Kurt Warner, Jake Delhomme, Brad Johnson, Rich Gannon; guys that at least made it to the Super Bowl. Point is, they made it to the Super Bowl, point is, Manning hasn't and until he does, he will not be a great QB. People remember greatness, not tons of stats. People remember that Marino has a ton of stats but never won the big game, welcome Manning. Remove the stats and he's Adam Vinnateri...what kind of logic is this...remove his stats and he sucks at QB.Stats mean nothing?!? Dan Marino is one of the greatest QB's of all time...Why? Not because of championships but because of stats...He will go into the HOF because of stats alone. I honestly think that when it counts in Payton's LIFE that he can't win the big game no matter the situation. college or pro, doesn't matter, he hasn't won. That's fact and proof.By that logic he would have lost vs Denver.A playoff game is playoff game....you cant discredit his 2 playoff wins this season becasue you lost money on the national championship game.He broke the cycle against a Denver team that didn't belong in the playoffs and a Chiefs team that couldn't stop an ant from crossing the endzone. Regardless, he lost to the team that won and that proves to me that HE can't win. WHAT?So because he lost to NE and they won the SB we must come to the conclusion that PM sucks and the 2 playoff wins didnt even happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 So because he lost to NE and they won the SB we must come to the conclusion that PM sucks and the 2 playoff wins didnt even happen.No, I'm not saying PM sucks. I'm saying he can't win the big game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smizzy Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 So because he lost to NE and they won the SB we must come to the conclusion that PM sucks and the 2 playoff wins didnt even happen.No, I'm not saying PM sucks. I'm saying he can't win the big game. But getting his team to a AFCC game is more than you thought he could accomplish in the NFL right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevnz Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 I'm saying he can't win the big game. I don't think that winning the "big game" is a one man job....Hell, his recievers just plain got mugged in the AFC championship game, that's not his fault, that's the NFL's fault for "letting" it happen, between that, and the Indy "Defense" how can you blame Payton for losing only by 7? I know the knock on a QB that doesn't win the Super Bowl and I really think it's a load of Bullox. The NFL is a team game and QB's get too much blame, and too much credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smizzy Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 I think his Peyton grudge got to him a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 Don't look at this season, look at his entire career as a QB. BTW - I don't have a grudge, I'm just looking at results from him playing in games that HE, he as in Joe Montana throwing the winning pass in the NFCC game, that makes a great player -- that makes a winner.BTW2 - He lost the AFCC game, he threw four interceptions, he had less than a 50% completion rate. Football is a team game, but the QB is the leader of the offense and when that leader throws 4 picks, well that puts your whole team in a position to lose, does it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevnz Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 BTW2 - He lost the AFCC game, he threw four interceptions, he had less than a 50% completion rate. Football is a team game, but the QB is the leader of the offense and when that leader throws 4 picks, well that puts your whole team in a position to lose, does it not? Don't believe I'm gonna defend him, again...must be getting soft in my old age.Some of those picks were a result of the no flag rule in that game....it's hard to complete a pas to WR when they're getting mugged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smizzy Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Don't believe I'm gonna defend him, again...must be getting soft in my old age.Some of those picks were a result of the no flag rule in that game....it's hard to complete a pas to WR when they're getting mugged. BINGO!!!!Kirk did you watch the game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Yes. We've resulted to excusing Manning's inability to win because of the team around him and bad penalty calls. Humm. OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevnz Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Yes. We've resulted to excusing Manning's inability to win because of the team around him and bad penalty calls. Humm. OK. I'm not defending him now, I'm defending myselfYou were talking about him in big games, he's only been in five playoff games and had won 2 straight "big games" then lost the next one that I was referring to...The two in previous years should be considered learning experiences...but they do count against him and fair enough....Sorry, but I don't consider college games "big games" Maybe I'm a bit too biased towards the NFL, but at the end of the day it's just college, it's just like a test...yep he failed, but I ain't gonna hold that against him...Hell, I've failed a test or two when I went to college, do I want my current and future employer holding that against me? Yeah it might be something to consider, but what one does while learning shouldn't be held against them for life...Of course, if maybe an NFL team dressed as Florida against Indy you might see him lose it a little Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 I'm not defending him now, I'm defending myselfDon't defend yourself, there's no reason to. I'm trying to understand that justification of how Manning is considered a great QB. Personally, I've always defined a great QB as a championship caliber one; not one that's a stat monger. When Marino is one those sports history shows or when they go through a players career, most of Marino's entails why and how he never could win the "big one", I think at this rate, it will be the same thing for Payton. Sorry, but I don't consider college games "big games"I think you have to; this develops the winning character to become a great QB. Maybe it doesn't apply for everyone, but I think if someone wins consistently when (A) the odds are against them and (B.) to take your team to the next level, it shows the ability to lead your team to winning. I think it's very important.And while the tests that are failed, it does bring the Major GPA down and employers might look to someone else with a better score overall; doesn't apply to everyone or everywhere, but I'll bet it does apply to a lot of places. And in the NFL, if you consistently lose the bigger games, more people question your ability to win; I mean Donovan is being hammered right now for lacking the ability to win; and rightly so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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