Trying to buy a winner

[redsfan2]

Thought this would be a better fromat for this discussion as it may tend to get lengthy.

First off I agree with you that the whole pay structure of baseball is a mess. You've got a couple of big market teams like the Yankees and Dodgers that will spend aything they want for any player they want and luxury tax be damned. At the other end of the spectrum, you have guys like Lindner ( and Mikey before him ) that say I'm just going to get a bunch of guys ..... buy them baseball uniforms and put them on the field. Nobody'll ever know the difference, and I'll save a bunch of money for myself. The Lindners of baseball are as much of a problem as the Steinbrenners. Probably worse, because while there is no guarentee that your high priced players will win, there is a level of pay below which you are guarenteed to lose. Baseball needs to set a high .. and a Low for payroll for the teams. Do away with the luxury tax. It's not working anyway. Set the limit, say that's it and the commissioners office will not approve further contracts. All contracts have to be approved by the commisioners office so it's easy to be like a bartender and say ... you've had enough that's it. At the same time, the commissioners office gets Lindners $500.00 dollar budget for the year and says .......... you are below the minimum. We will take the difference between what you are paying and the minimum, deduct it from your tv revenue and divide it among the players based on years in the league. Doing that takes away his incentive to go cheap.

Money isn't the evil ......... it's the tool that the evil use to do their dirty work. I watched Steinbrenner spend a ton of money on players and not have a .500 season. We all saw what the Devil Rays did with a mid level budget last year. Dodgers are another good example. Huge payroll, but where are they at year after year ???? You need good people in the organization to identify the talent and then pay a reasonable amount of money to develop and or trade for the players that will make you a contender. The Braves ( as much as I hate them ) are a good example of how to run a franchise. They have a higher payroll, but not the biggest ..... and they field a winning team year after year. Now they may choke in the NLCS or Series, but they get there.

Pay is just one of the problems with baseball. There are a lot of others. The biggest is that you cannot have an owner as the commissioner. It's a built in conflict of interest. The other big problem is Feer who is a glorified agent that really doesn't care about the game or the players, All he wants is his pay off. He's a whore in the worst sense of the word.

Get a good, strong , Independent, commissioner ....... get union management that realizes that they have a public to answer to, and you have the base on which you can re build baseball. It's either that or keep lurching out of control from one emergensy to the next.

I'm done now

[Kirkendall]

Yea, this thread may destroy the server.

You make great points in the problems in baseball. I agree that the Linders are as much a problem in baseball as Steinbrenner and in fact I blame the Linders more than the Steinbrenners on this one. Georgey boy wants to put a winner on the field, and so does the BoSox management so their justification is buying players with proven seasons to compliment their pool of home grown talent. Of course this doesn't guarentte a winner as you pointed out, but it does give you a fair better shot in most circumstances. The worst thing that could have happened to baseball was having the Marlins win the series giving justification that a salary cap isn't needed and those that oppose the luxury tax (mostly Steinbrenner) more fuel for the fire; thus putting the issue way back on the burner. The one thing that Steinbrenner values is keeping his home grown talent in the organization, something Oakland, Cincinnati among others in the small market can't do -- which used to be a tradition of high value. This of course, is a trait that Atlanta has been able to keep; hence their yearly playoff berths. You are right, they aren't the biggest market, but I do believe they are yearly in the top five with payroll since the mid-90s (when the great players on their team started to demand new contracts).

But the difference is these teams (Atlanta, New York, Cubs, BoSox) spend their money to put winners on the field; comparatively, the Linders choose not to put so much stock on their teams.

Personally, I think one of the things baseball can do -- and maybe the sole instigator of bringing the game back on the map as legitamate and fun -- is instituting a rigid and strict salary cap. This will ensure parity, as the NFL, and give all fans of all markets in any city a fighting chance. Hell, we actually think the Bengals can win the Super Bowl within the next three years; something we know the Reds will not do within that time span if ever again, sadly.

The commissioners office is a building on top of a pit of cash. An owner as commish, again as you pointed out, is the worst scenario. They need to go back to the roots of the commissioners office when a judge was selected, biased to both sides and greedists such as Donald Fehr do not have options of locking out the players, approving trades because he knows a judge as commish would not be partial to owners. I blame both sides for the state of baseball, which is the difference of buying one plane and six houses and just living comfertably.

I've noticed contracts this off-season have reduced greatly for the top agents then in years past; partially because the free agents this season are of lower quality than the season of A-Rod and Manny -- whom got ridiciously large contracts.

The sad thing is baseball had a chance to correct itself this offseason, most notiably Selig when they met in the middle with the Union. I think it would have been much better if the owners locked out the players, regardless of how long and made the Union come to terms on the owners terms. I supported ownership on the last round, mostly they wanted drug tests and a salary cap. Instead they instituted a luxury tax (b/c the Union knew teams like the Yanks would pay the penalty and keep salaries high) and instituted a test drug policy which failed miserably. If baseball is to come to terms with itself, it needs to restructure the whole game off the field. If they miss a complete season, fine. I can deal with that if in the long run, it becomes Americas pasttime instead of the past of Americas sports.

[kevnz]

Personally, I think one of the things baseball can do -- and maybe the sole instigator of bringing the game back on the map as legitamate and fun -- is instituting a rigid and strict salary cap. This will ensure parity, as the NFL, and give all fans of all markets in any city a fighting chance. Hell, we actually think the Bengals can win the Super Bowl within the next three years; something we know the Reds will not do within that time span if ever again, sadly.

.....snipped.....

The sad thing is baseball had a chance to correct itself this offseason, most notiably Selig when they met in the middle with the Union. I think it would have been much better if the owners locked out the players, regardless of how long and made the Union come to terms on the owners terms. I supported ownership on the last round, mostly they wanted drug tests and a salary cap. Instead they instituted a luxury tax (b/c the Union knew teams like the Yanks would pay the penalty and keep salaries high) and instituted a test drug policy which failed miserably. If baseball is to come to terms with itself, it needs to restructure the whole game off the field. If they miss a complete season, fine. I can deal with that if in the long run, it becomes Americas pasttime instead of the past of Americas sports.

This sounds like a plan...I mean how much damage could baseball do to itself now? They have lost what little crediblity they had with all the steroid users in baseball, the over inflated contracts, the over inflated egos....All pro sports need a salery cap....It's the best thing for any sport. Hell they even have them down here in the professional rugby league and unions....It helps the game....

Also, MLB wants to contract two teams...I vote for the Yankees and Red Sox...That would do a hell of a lot right there to helping baseball....But I've said it before, I'll say it again...baseball, like hockey, is a dead, it's just that nobody has told the players yet, but I think some of the owners have seen the writing on the wall. Why do you think a big organization like Newscorp sold the dodgers? Why Time Warner pruned back the Braves?

Oh, and the Bengals will win the Superbowl within the next three years...write it down.

[Kirkendall]

Also, MLB wants to contract two teams...I vote for the Yankees and Red Sox

I vote for St. Louis and Chicago Cubs. At least we'd have a chance at winning the AL Central. I would say Houston, but I'm a little partial to the Astros because that's my native state and the rest of my family would drive up and just to make fun of me for being a Reds fan.. No respect. No respect at all.

[kevnz]

Also, MLB wants to contract two teams...I vote for the Yankees and Red Sox

I vote for St. Louis and Chicago Cubs. At least we'd have a chance at winning the AL Central. I would say Houston, but I'm a little partial to the Astros because that's my native state and the rest of my family would drive up and just to make fun of me for being a Reds fan.. No respect. No respect at all.

I doubt the Reds would win it even if you took 2 teams out, and spotted them 20 games....

[Kirkendall]

Ouch Kev, ouch.

[but true...]

[BengalszoneBilly]

Man I cannot believe what a short time ago I was sooo stoked that the Reds had picked up Griffey Jr., and it looked as things may finally be well again for baseball in Cincy. Now I just got in the mail my bill for membership dues in the "What The Hell Was I Thinkin' Club". Might just as well pay it, eh?

[redsfan2]

Man I cannot believe what a short time ago I was sooo stoked that the Reds had picked up Griffey Jr., and it looked as things may finally be well again for baseball in Cincy. Now I just got in the mail my bill for membership dues in the "What The Hell Was I Thinkin' Club". Might just as well pay it, eh? 

Griffey started out strong last year. He just can't seem to shake that injury bug. I thought it was fantastic when the Reds picked him up, but he' s just been snakebit since he got there.

Cincinnati needs pitching, and they've got question marks at 2nd and 3rd. We've got 1 more year to get ss straightened out, but we've got plenty of good hitters. If ..... IF Griffey can stay healthy this year, and Dunn an Kearns come on as expected, then Griffey could have the kind of year everyone has been thinking he would have since he got here. Of course that would make it that much easier for Lindner and Allen to trade him too, so that may not be the good news you'd think.

I didn't want to, but I think I'm going to have to go down there.

[Kirkendall]

The only thing I have against Griffey is the amount of money that he sucks out of payroll. But with Larkin freeing up $7 million on his contract (with his new $1 mil deal) will help develop pitching. I completely disagree with putting $ into pitching as much as we should develop it on our farm.

BTW - We should put Gullett in the minors to develop it there, when it's most impressionable.

I'm starting a new thread about the team itself.