Why Palmer is the Man!

[walzav29]

He has led a 4th quarter comeback.

He has performed great on the big stage

He spreads the ball around

He routinely throws for over 70% (Unbelievable)

Takes command of the offense

His teammates like him

Needs to work on -

1 thing Ben does that Palmer doesn't. The bad decisions. See

Pitt's 2 touchdowns

Last week's end zone throw. Overall throws some balls in the air.

He will improve on this, and I look forward to a Brady Palmer showdown in the playoffs.

[Kirkendall]

1 thing Ben does that Palmer doesn't. The bad decisions. See

Pitt's 2 touchdowns

See Pittsburgh's '04 post-season.

[bengal4life4show]

Needs to work on -

1 thing Ben does that Palmer doesn't. The bad decisions. See

Pitt's 2 touchdowns

Last week's end zone throw. Overall throws some balls in the air.

If Ben had to win games for them by throwing the ball, he couldnt. Last week i might be one or two off, but wasnt he 9-11. When has palmer only thrown 11 passes in a game. maybe the preseason. If ben jad to throw 35-45 passes a game as palmer does there is no doubt in my mind that he would have thrown more pics than palmer did/does. People are all up his ass and it is getting so annoying cuz in a few years he will be another joey harrington. Palmer will be (peyton)

[Kirkendall]

People are all up his ass and it is getting so annoying

If a QB goes 15-1, you earn that right.

[walzav29]

I want him to be a Brady, not a Peyton.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

People are all up his ass and it is getting so annoying

If a QB goes 15-1, you earn that right.

See, I hate that. Does Dilfer ever get that kind of credit for "leading" the Ravens to a Super Bowl win? Of course not, because he'd been in the league long enough that everyone knew he wasn't particularly great. Roth did well for a rookie, no question, but he's not the second coming of Montana, or at least he hasn't proven it yet.

The Steelers went 15-1, Roth didn't. Put him on a team that doesn't have an incredible running game and a tough defense, let's see what he does. Or as others have said, when he's had to actually throw much to win, he hasn't looked great.

[duus]

Last season, when Maddox went down and Roethlisburger came in, it seemed that every team attempted to do what is custom against rookie QBs ... force him out of the pocket and make him run or throw on the run. Well, I think the year proved that that tactic works to his strength. At Miami that's what he did best ... roll out and throw on the run. Once you got to the playoffs, you see what teams (Jets and Pats) did ... they treated him like any other 'more experienced' QB and forced him to make plays from the pocket. What happened in the Titans game? Well, I think their defense (or lack thereof) explains that enough. I expect (hope) you will see better teams mimic the Jets and Pats.

Now, to the more important thing ... Palmer. We know that he plays his best in the pocket. Give him the protection (like the Steelers have year over year) and he will show himself far superior. I'll take Palmer in that scenario any day!

[Kirkendall]

The Steelers went 15-1, Roth didn't. Put him on a team that doesn't have an incredible running game and a tough defense, let's see what he does. Or as others have said, when he's had to actually throw much to win, he hasn't looked great.

But you don't know that. Remember his Miami days? They opened it up, and Ben was the REASON why they enjoyed the successes they did. He hasn't been given the oppritunity to be a fantasy football stats pounding QB. He's just winning football games (15 of them -- well 13-0 as starter).

Maybe being a Bengals fan all this time, we forget that WINNING is the most important feature as a QB.

[duus]

Nope, haven't forgottent that winning is the thing. The question was in comparing QBs, not teams, not winning. I like Palmer's upside and therefor like him best (of course I still have bias!). But would I rather go 15-1 and have a lesser QB manage me to that point ... of course! But we have Palmer, and I think we can get there with him, just a bit differently than the 100% smash mouth, just don't let the QB hurt us, method. QB comparison gives Palmer the advantage. That answers the question. Obviously it's a tier (or more!) lower, but it's very similar to the Brady/Manning argument. Same thing. Of course Colts fans would rather have the winning, but they have Manning, and expect the winning is coming (as do I).

[Kirkendall]

Nope, haven't forgottent that winning is the thing. The question was in comparing QBs, not teams, not winning.

Sure it is. And when someone says, "People are all up his ass and it is getting so annoying", I'm going to remind them that he's allowed to have that benefit.

...and don't get me wrong. I agree, Palmer is better.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

The Steelers went 15-1, Roth didn't.  Put him on a team that doesn't have an incredible running game and a tough defense, let's see what he does.  Or as others have said, when he's had to actually throw much to win, he hasn't looked great.

But you don't know that. Remember his Miami days? They opened it up, and Ben was the REASON why they enjoyed the successes they did. He hasn't been given the oppritunity to be a fantasy football stats pounding QB. He's just winning football games (15 of them -- well 13-0 as starter).

Maybe being a Bengals fan all this time, we forget that WINNING is the most important feature as a QB.

No, winning is a TEAM THING. Big Ben gets credit for a "perfect game" in which he THREW 11 freaking passes. That's not a perfect game, it's a MINIMALIST game.

His running back had the perfect game.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

The Steelers went 15-1, Roth didn't.  Put him on a team that doesn't have an incredible running game and a tough defense, let's see what he does.  Or as others have said, when he's had to actually throw much to win, he hasn't looked great.

But you don't know that. Remember his Miami days? They opened it up, and Ben was the REASON why they enjoyed the successes they did. He hasn't been given the oppritunity to be a fantasy football stats pounding QB. He's just winning football games (15 of them -- well 13-0 as starter).

Maybe being a Bengals fan all this time, we forget that WINNING is the most important feature as a QB.

Hate to tell you, but the MAC isn't the AFCN. Lots of players light it up in college, and not the NFL. The fact is that the more he throws here, the more his mistakes pile up.

Winning is important for a TEAM. He does not deserve credit for PIT's wins any more than Kyle Orton should take the blame for the Bear's losses, when either of them throws the ball 10 times per game.

Roth was in the right place at the right time. He still needs to prove that he can play QB in this league, and not be more than the hand-off machine. He doesn't have the "right" to be an egotistical clown (like he is) for his team's success when he's not the reason for it. And make no mistake, he's not.

Again, should Dilfer get credit for winning the 2000 Super Bowl, simply because he's the QB? Why not give credit to the long snapper, since he probably had more impact on getting them there, as much as that team punted?

Do I know that Roth can't be good when he throws a lot? Well, he hasn't so far, but I can't prove he won't get better since I don't have a crystal ball. But let's have him actually accomplish something in the league before we start carving his bust for the HOF. Right now, the offense runs best when he is barely involved, and that isn't the mark of a particularly good QB.

[bengal4life4show]

did i mention i like chocolate pudding

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Needs to work on -

1 thing Ben does that Palmer doesn't. The bad decisions. See

Pitt's 2 touchdowns

Last week's end zone throw. Overall throws some balls in the air.

If Ben had to win games for them by throwing the ball, he couldnt. Last week i might be one or two off, but wasnt he 9-11. When has palmer only thrown 11 passes in a game. maybe the preseason. If ben jad to throw 35-45 passes a game as palmer does there is no doubt in my mind that he would have thrown more pics than palmer did/does. People are all up his ass and it is getting so annoying cuz in a few years he will be another joey harrington. Palmer will be (peyton)

<applauds>

Ben went 15-1 because of his defense - kinda like Dilfer taking the Ravens to the Superbowl.

Minimize your weakenesses and thus your mistakes, and you might go far.

We see how far Big Ben got that team in the playoffs when they needed him to step-up.

If the Bengals recgonize what they have in Carson, they'll keep him in the same system for a long time and let him master it like Peyton has in indy.

Palmer is the most impressive young passer since Manning, to come into the league.

You can already see what a big, 6'5" athletic QB from a big program who has a cannon for an arm can do in the NFL - they are ideal.

This weekend will tell us quite a bit about just what we have here in Cincinnati and where this team will go soon...very exciting.

[HairOnFire]

Palmer is an elite NFL QB. ...right now. I understand he still makes the occasional dumb mistake, but that doesn't change the end result. He's already amongst the very best.

[Stripes]

Palmer is an elite NFL QB. ...right now. I understand he still makes the occasional dumb mistake, but that doesn't change the end result. He's already amongst the very best.

Agreed.

Some may argue that his performance looks better than it is due to his receving corps, and there may be some semblance of truth to that. Palmer performs better with the team he has been given than many other QBs with similar advantages. (ie. Joey Harrington, Kyle Boller) He always finds the open man quickly, and stands as strong in the pocket as anyone else in this league, except perhaps Brady.

He doesn't hesitate to use his checkdown receivers or tight ends, even if his options at receiver are much more talented. He doesn't throw into tight coverage nearly as often as he did early last year, and when he does, he puts the ball where only his receiver can get it.

His only weakness, as has been said, is his tendency to make foolish mistakes. That comes with youth, and will improve given time. We've all seen how quickly he has adapted to this offense, and how that success can compare to other quarterbacks given much more time and still have yet to reach his level.

If our defense can be gelled by mid-season, and at least be top 13 caliber, then we'll start to see Palmer do what Roethlisberger does, but better. We have a budding superstar on our hands, and with Marvin at the helm, that could very well mean a superbowl or three.

[kingwilly]

After his starts so far, Palmer is on the verge of becoming an elite QB in the NFL.

I'm not going to debate his merits and short-comings, as they are well discussed and a work in progress. He needs to maintain his current level till the bye. If he does, then I'll put him up there with in the Manning/Culpepper category. If he has his ups and downs, which is probably expected, then he is not quite yet and elite NFL QB.

Based on the last few seasons, here is a basic list of 5 elite QB's:

Manning

McNabb

Culpepper

Brady

Favre

Last year, we had Brees breakout. In 2003, it was Kitna. If Plamer breaks out this year, he's need to maintain it to be considered "Elite" in my book.

[derekshank]

Based on the last few seasons, here is a basic list of 5 elite QB's:

Manning

McNabb

Culpepper

Brady

Favre

I agree... Palmer is merely on his way to becoming elite... however. Favre is no longer elite. He once was, but that was in the past. Dan Marino was no longer elite in his last few years. Joe Montana was no longer elite in KC. They may have still be upper echelon, but not elite.

I would also like to see Culpepper do it without Moss. Remember what Moss did for Brad Johnson, Warren Moon, and Randal Cunningham?

Palmer is in the upper echelon, hopefully becoming elite, but I think he still throws a few too many interceptions (or should be interceptions) to be elite just yet. If he can carry this team on his back to a playoff victory, I'll be ready to call him elite.

I would however like to say that you left off Vick, and I see Vick as one of the best. You may throw a bunch of meaningless statistics at me, But Vick simply gets his team wins. He keeps defensive coordinators up at night. What he is able to do with his feet makes him more versatile than Peyton Manning, who is only able to beat you with his arm, and the fear he strikes in D-Linemen and LB's is more than the fear Culpepper gives anyone.

Vick with a 50% completion rate is the equivalent of Brady and his consistency, simply because you can't take anything he does for granted. If you focus too much on one aspect of his game, he'll beat you with the other. If he becomes a passer with the accuracy of a Trent Green, he might go down in my book as the best ever.

P.S. I don't care for him at all, so don't call me a Vick lover. I did have to admit that he was no longer underrated when his team went deep into the playoffs the two years with him, and could only win 5 games without him. Their Defensive Coordinator readily admited that their defense plays better when Vick is in the game. I can't explain that away with meaningless fantasy football nerd stats.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Based on the last few seasons, here is a basic list of 5 elite QB's:

Manning

McNabb

Culpepper

Brady

Favre

I agree... Palmer is merely on his way to becoming elite... however. Favre is no longer elite. He once was, but that was in the past. Dan Marino was no longer elite in his last few years. Joe Montana was no longer elite in KC. They may have still be upper echelon, but not elite.

I would also like to see Culpepper do it without Moss. Remember what Moss did for Brad Johnson, Warren Moon, and Randal Cunningham?

Palmer is in the upper echelon, hopefully becoming elite, but I think he still throws a few too many interceptions (or should be interceptions) to be elite just yet. If he can carry this team on his back to a playoff victory, I'll be ready to call him elite.

I would however like to say that you left off Vick, and I see Vick as one of the best. You may throw a bunch of meaningless statistics at me, But Vick simply gets his team wins. He keeps defensive coordinators up at night. What he is able to do with his feet makes him more versatile than Peyton Manning, who is only able to beat you with his arm, and the fear he strikes in D-Linemen and LB's is more than the fear Culpepper gives anyone.

Vick with a 50% completion rate is the equivalent of Brady and his consistency, simply because you can't take anything he does for granted. If you focus too much on one aspect of his game, he'll beat you with the other. If he becomes a passer with the accuracy of a Trent Green, he might go down in my book as the best ever.

P.S. I don't care for him at all, so don't call me a Vick lover. I did have to admit that he was no longer underrated when his team went deep into the playoffs the two years with him, and could only win 5 games without him. Their Defensive Coordinator readily admited that their defense plays better when Vick is in the game. I can't explain that away with meaningless fantasy football nerd stats.

Vick's not in that category. Since you seem to be afraid of stats I won't use any on you, but he's injury prone, makes some dumb mistakes, isn't very accurate, can't read defenses, and good defenses with reasonably fast linebackers are easily able to contain him.

I think the notion of defensive coordinators staying up at night fretting over him is overblown. He's been in the league a number of years now, and teams know exactly how to beat him: make him throw.

Atlanta wins because they have an underrated running game (of which Vick is admittedly a part), but he's one of the worst QBs in the game *at throwing.* I won't use any particular statistics, because all of them support that contention. When you add in the running element, he's slightly better than average.

Vick's a lot more exciting than he is good, he's just a gimmick.

And are you saying the Falcon's D plays better with Vick in the game? Because that makes approximately no sense.

[walshfan]

Ive been hearing that Favre isnt elite anymore for the past couple seasons due to his age.....

check his stats last year .....30 TD passes...4000 yards.....over 60% complettion rate......a 93 rating.....

he may not be putting up numbers as one of the greatest of all time but he still has to be rated as one of the best based on last years stats....

[kingwilly]

Brett Favre may blow up in more games than he used too, but he is still elite. He may be in decline but it is a slow descent.

2003+2004 stats. avg'd

3725 yrds.

AVG. 64.5 comp %

62 td's

38 int's

91.4 rating

Palmer has the ability and weapons to put up these numbers, or better. The final tipping point is making the post-season. Stats+Playoffs=Elite.

As for Vick. He is an Elite player but not QB. His role is so barely a QB...

He is just an Elite weapon.

[walshfan]

All this debates about Rottenburger and Carson.....

Look they're BOTH good....

They both produce the objectives of their respective teams..

I lilke Palmer but I have watched Rottenburger enough to know that he's a goode one... a very good one..

Palmer

Brees

Rottenburger

Losman

Eli Manning

Leftwich

Carr

These are the future QB stars of the NFL.. the ability is there for all of them..Its just a matter of surrounding them with weapons and protection...

[BengalBax]

Palmer is an elite NFL QB. ...right now. I understand he still makes the occasional dumb mistake, but that doesn't change the end result. He's already amongst the very best.

Are you being SERIOUS?

[derekshank]

I think the notion of defensive coordinators staying up at night fretting over him is overblown. He's been in the league a number of years now, and teams know exactly how to beat him: make him throw.

Atlanta wins because they have an underrated running game (of which Vick is admittedly a part), but he's one of the worst QBs in the game *at throwing.* I won't use any particular statistics, because all of them support that contention. When you add in the running element, he's slightly better than average.

Vick's a lot more exciting than he is good, he's just a gimmick.

And are you saying the Falcon's D plays better with Vick in the game? Because that makes approximately no sense.

I'm not afraid of stats, I just think passer ratings and things of that nature are over-rated (Ben Roethlisberger had a perfect passer rating last week)

Also, Vick is injury prone? In his career, other than his one leg injury, he has missed exactly 2 games. Palmer must be injury prone too then.

And, you're right. Defenses with fast LB's can contain him fairly well, but those teams seem to be very few and far between, because he still manages to win game after game. Tampy Bay seems to be the only team that contains him regularly.

Regarding your comment about the D playing better when Vick is in the game, don't ask me. Ask the Falcon's Defensive coordinator. But he seems to be speaking the truth, because in 2003 without Vick they were the worst defense in the league... last year they were in the top half.

Also, in 2003 when the Falcons only won 5 games... Vick played the last 5 games, not being 100%, and helped win 3 of them. That means, without him, they only won 2 games that season.

I agree with you that he is not a great "passer". You won't hear me argue that he is... all I am saying is that Vick brings something to the game that you can't quantify with stats. Vick haters love to show his completion percentage, and say he's not a "true" QB. Well, maybe not... but every person who brings revolution is met with resistance.

I doubt Vick will be able to play like he does into his mid-to late 30's... but as of right now, there is no stat that can argue with the fact that he wins games. And you're right... he is a big enough part of the running game, that his presense brought them from ranked 14th in the league to 1st by a considerable margin (over 200 more yards on almost 100 fewer attempts than Pittsburgh). The way he elevates the players production around him is not measurable.

anyway... I'm feeling guilty now making a long Vick post in a thread that should be about Palmer. So to bring it back, Palmer does not yet do the "intangible" stuff that Vick does that I view makes him "elite".

Of course, no other QB does what Vick does... so Palmer must do it the conventional way. I imagine he will be viewed as "elite" by the larger community of NFL fans as early as next year, assuming we can make the playoffs. But he'll have to come out strong next year too, because as someone else posted... One really good year doesn't qualify you for "elite" status, i.e. Brees.

[HairOnFire]

Palmer is an elite NFL QB. ...right now. I understand he still makes the occasional dumb mistake, but that doesn't change the end result. He's already amongst the very best.

Are you being SERIOUS?

Yup, dead serious. Over his last handful of starts Palmer's QB rating in each game was over 101.4. Find me 5 other QB's that can match that and I'll withdraw the statement.