BengalszoneBilly Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I know this topic is going to wad up a s**t load of panties with all the folks who love to toss the hypothetical draft picks back and forth, like they have some sort of say in the matter, but let me state this point.The draft is an undeniable crapshoot. I've said this before. A large percentage of the present NFL stars weren't even drafted out of college, or if they were, it was in the very late rounds. Yet they far excelled far beyond the people that were drafted ahead of them. Must I remind us of Archie Griffin? Oh boy, what a jewel he was. High pick too! Turned out to be a bust. In a long freakin' line of high pick busts!What I'm getting at is the return for the buck. I say on the average, money is better spent in the free agent market, and resigning your teams quality free agents before some other team grabs them away from you. (God I hope Carson Palmer makes me eat these words!!)What are you guys thinking of this? Should the Bengals again risk $ with the draft, or risk $ with the free agent market at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJBestInAFC Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I think a lot of it depends on the people in your organization. This first begins with the coach and his surronding casts. If the casts as well as the coach aren't willing to put enough time and energy into developing players you should base most of your money on free agency. On the other hand if your supporting casts strengths are in the developement of young talent then most of your dollars every year will be spent on getting young talent and developing them into champions. This also means they have money to burn on a couple of high profile free agents every year. I think the Bengals will sign 2 or 3 FA and use the draft to fix the rest of the wholes on the team. Just my two cents.B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I know this topic is going to wad up a s**t load of panties with all the folks who love to toss the hypothetical draft picks back and forth, like they have some sort of say in the matter, but let me state this point.The draft is an undeniable crapshoot. I've said this before. A large percentage of the present NFL stars weren't even drafted out of college, or if they were, it was in the very late rounds. Yet they far excelled far beyond the people that were drafted ahead of them. Must I remind us of Archie Griffin? Oh boy, what a jewel he was. High pick too! Turned out to be a bust. In a long freakin' line of high pick busts!What I'm getting at is the return for the buck. I say on the average, money is better spent in the free agent market, and resigning your teams quality free agents before some other team grabs them away from you. (God I hope Carson Palmer makes me eat these words!!)What are you guy think of this? Should the Bengals again risk $ with the draft, or risk $ with the free agent market at this point? Great point Billy, and I've seen you speak about this before. However I think the team that drafts depends on whom is drafting the players; we all know about Baltimore's drafting ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevnz Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Unfortunately Free Agency is risky these days as well. You have to develop star players, not try to sign them...Look at all the Free Agents brought into Washington...Did that help them at all? If you look at the two Super Bowl teams, they built themselves by smart drafting, and a few key FA, but not big superstars.Saying that, I expect several new names for the Bengals this year come in by Free Agency. In todays NFL get the solid players, avoid the so called superstars.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 However I think the team that drafts depends on whom is drafting the players; we all know about Baltimore's drafting ability. I like this point of view now Josh...but I need to know how it differs so much from how the Bengals approach this situation. Cincy has certainly drafted higher on the average than the Ravens, yet we have precious little to show for it. Again I hope Palmer breaks that statement off in my butt, but even I will admit he's done nothing so far, although he's honestly hasn't been given the chance...yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richmond_mat Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 The draft is an undeniable crapshoot. I've said this before. A large percentage of the present NFL stars weren't even drafted out of college, or if they were, it was in the very late rounds. Yet they excelled far beyond the people that were drafted ahead of them. Must I remind us of Archie Griffin? Oh boy, what a jewel he was. High pick too! Turned out to be a bust. In a long freakin' line of high pick busts!What I'm getting at is the return for the buck. I say .......Trade that #17 pick. There's no differenece between 17 and 35.Trade CD AND our #1 pick to the highest bidder. I'd be happy with a high #2 pick this year, a #4 next and and several late round picks over the next couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishcovga Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I read somewhere a few months back on espn, that 60%+ of all starters in the nfl were drafted and drafted on day one. meaning rounds 1-3. Our problem hasn't been that we've drafted high or blew picks on questionable players...Our problem was that no one was willing to stop Mike Brown and his ineptitude from deciding on who our pick was going to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Just a couple of thoughts. First, billy's position makes some sense if you happen to be one of those teams up in the top 10, who are faced with the prospect of forking over tens of millions to guys who haven't played a down in the NFL yet. Unfortunately, no NFL club is in a hurry to put itself in that position. It's notoriously difficult to trade out of the top of the round, unless you want to just give the pick away.Secondly, from a money standpoint, if we were at No. 1, like last year, I'd agree. But we're at 17th, and if last year's deal at that slot (Bryant Johnson, $8.12 million over 4 years with an option for a fifth) is any guide, whoever we take will cost us about $2.2 million/year. Not exactly a windfall for the FA war chest.I really don't think this year's draft presents any "bang for the buck" issues at all. Say we draft a CB like Poole and pay him $2.2 million/year. Heck, Toast Hawkins is making something like $1.7 million/year, so all Poole would have to do is be modestly better (which shouldn't be tough) to be "worth it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishcovga Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Don't forget that Cincy's cap space is supposed to be around 11-13 million .. 4 1/2-5 1/2 of that is going to be used for the draft cap. and the the other 7 or 8 million will be used to shore up guys like Rudi.. Mike Goff ,Rogers Beckett, etc. etc. With us having so many guys that fullfilled those "stat-portions" of their contracts... like Chad Johnson,Kitna etc... cincinnati lost about 4 million in cap room.Our Biggest help will be to restructure Kitna's money, signing Rudi to that one year tender.(free-agency risk) , and trading away dillon. then and only then could we afford to bring in a free-agent center,guard, or cornerback. I have to think that with Langston Moore's inability to play last year , and our inability to stop the run, and the ages and salaries of Oliver Gibson, Tony Williams, that drafting a Defensive tackle early (Randy Starks according to Mel "the hair" Kiper) is what Marvin Lewis is leaning towards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 However I think the team that drafts depends on whom is drafting the players; we all know about Baltimore's drafting ability.I like this point of view now Josh...but I need to know how it differs so much from how the Bengals approach this situation. Cincy has certainly drafted higher on the average than the Ravens, yet we have precious little to show for it. Again I hope Palmer breaks that statement off in my butt, but even I will admit he's done nothing so far, although he's honestly hasn't been given the chance...yet! I think if you look at the past 5-7 years of the Ravens draft comparitively to what the Bengals have done in that same time span, it becomes evident that the Ravens have an uncanny ability to draft their need and the right person for that need. Chris is absolutely right about Mike Brown having his clutches on the team has forced us to pick players that haven't turned out on a majority scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I don't know that the Bengals' drafts, even during the reign of Mikey, have been all that bad. As billy pointed out, it *is* a crapshoot. Look at the pre-Marvin Mikey era, 1992-02, and the top 3 picks each year. That's 33 picks total, which break down something like this (IMHO, of course):WORTH IT (30%):Levi JonesJustin SmithChad JohnsonPeter WarrickWillie AndersonCorey DillonTakeo SpikesBrian SimmonsDarnay ScottCarl PickensCONTRIBUTORS (27%):Matt SchobelMark RomanArtrell HawkinsJohn CopelandTony McGeeRon DugansSteve TovarCorey HallSam ShadeGUYS WHO SUCCEEDED ELSEWHERE (9%):Dan WilkinsonDarryl WilliamsLamont ThompsonCAREERS F***KED BY INJURY (9%):Charles FisherKi-Jana CarterKen BlackmanWASTED PICKS (9%):Marco BattagliaMelvin TutenJeff CothranBONA-FIDE BUSTS (15%):Sean BrewerAkili SmithReinard WilsonDavid KlinglerRod PayneI think that the real failure of the Bengals drafts over this period has to do not with the absolute number of good vs. bad picks (as there were arguably more good picks than bad), but with *where* those successes/failures occured. Three of the five offensive linemen taken over these 11 years were flops, as were both the QBs and two of the three F/RBs. The Bengals *were* extremely good at drafting WRs...but without an OL or QB, who cares? Only three, count 'em, three times in 11 years did the Bengals address the DL in the first three rounds (four if you count "tweener" Reinard Wilson)...while spending 11 (10 if you put Reinard in the DL category) on LBs and DBs. So much for that "games are won in the trenches" philosophy, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Damn good data joisey. I'm still chewin' on all of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHO DEY AGAIN? Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 One advantage FA has is the scouting is done for you. Can you be a good coach and a good judge of talent? Yes, but not great! Things are changing by adding more to the scouting department(Even if it is Bruce). Too much was put on the coaches in the past and that's the reason for some poor picks. Maybe it has finally set in that you have to spend money to compete. I think good points could be made for the draft or free agency. I just want a happy medium.I'll take good young coachable talent in the draft and solid role players in FA. If we get that this year we will be making a run for the BOWL next year! Who Dey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted January 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Maybe it has finally set in that you have to spend money to compete. I think it's that factor, and possibly one other...now that Mikey has a new stadium with his dads name on it, he doesn't want to stink it up like he was doing with Riverfront on a yearly basis! I still can't totally fathom his apparent change in his "Standard Operating Procedure" with the team, but I sure ain't complaining! Josh touched on this subject in his first article he ever wrote here at Bengalszone. It's worth a read if you havent done so already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishcovga Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 I have to think that when it comes to drafting, The Cincinnati Bengals have turned the corner when it comes to drafting the top talent as seen in the 2003 draft.Like most "self-made" draft gurus'.. i went round by round with the bengals and couldn't believe they were taking off the guys that in past drafts they would have passed on simply because it wasn't a need, or they didn't have the proper scouting to know the value of players passing them by.Cincy had a perfect grade up until their later round picks last year. (after round 4).Dennis Weathersby still has a chance to grade that draft a pure A. Also would have loved Rien Long last year at Defensive Tackle,but hey can't have everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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