Kitna vs. Palmer

[redsfan2]

Not that I don't think Palmer will be good, it's just that I think the quarterback was not the main problem with the offense. I think it was the line. In most of the losses, Kitna was constantly harrassed and not given the time to throw. That problem was exacerbated by the total absence of a running game. Blame Kitna for the losses if you want due to the int's ......... remember though it throws off a qb's balance when he's got a 295 pound de hanging off his arm.  I would imagine it's also distracting as hell.

Conversely, when Kitna had the time, he routinely picked defenses to pieces. A couple of pretty good ones at that.

And therein lies the heart of the choice between Kitna and Palmer. Given a solid offensive line, two or three quality wideouts, a decent tight end, and a running game able to generate 80 or 100 yards, Kitna is capable of succeeding. Give him all the tools, and he can win.

Problem is, when he loses a tool, it directly reduces his effectiveness. Kitna -- unlike, say, a Favre or McNair or Bulger -- brings nothing beyond his ability to effectively use a complete set of tools.

Now, that is *not* an insignificant or everyday skill. And the fact that Kitna's performance seems to drop so dramatically when the RB pulls a groin or one of his tackles has a bad wheel or his No. 2 receiver is out due to knee surgery or whatever says a hell of a lot about our lack of depth. But you want a QB that the opposing defense has to account for...not one who is wholly dependent on the players around him to succeed.

The problem is, we have no idea if Palmer is that guy or not. So, do you go with the safe play, Kitna, hope for the best re injuries and illnesses, and work to shore up depth so you have better alternatives than Scott Rehberg and TJ? Or do you roll the dice, pick Palmer, and cross your fingers that he can manage a game half as well when the team is whole, and whip up a few miracles when it isn't?

Here you go Kirk ...... ti's the ol dbl post routine. I'm the only one here though so its either that or talk to myself

I noticed a couple of correlations between your post and Joiseys. Aside from the obvious I mean. In Kirks post, he focused on time of posession. Usually a real good indicator unless you have a big play offense and / or a really dominating defense. It does play to Lewis' philosophy of football. Get a lead and then grind it out with a good running game. Wear the other down down to the point that in the 4th qtr he's exhausted.

Joisey counters that Kitna will do well as long as he has absolutely everything he needs to work with. As soon as he doesn't, that's when things go to hell. I'm paraphrasing, but that was the general idea. He contends we need the guy @ qb that can put the team on his shoulders and win even though he doesn't have all of his starters to work with. In other words a big play quarterback. For the sake of the argument, let's say that Palmer is that qb. How does that mesh with the offensive grind it out philosphy / identity of the team ????? Do you see what I'm getting at ?? Are the Bengals the run it over you type with Rudi getting his 4.5 per pop, or are they the we'll burn you for a 90 yard pass and run from our own 10 featuring a 60 yard laser to CJ ??? Can they be both / either as the situation dictates ??????????

I'm interested to know what you guys think Marvin is up to. I have to admit that every time I think I know what to expect from him, he does the opposite.

[HoosierCat]

Joisey counters that Kitna will do well as long as he has absolutely everything he needs to work with. As soon as he doesn't, that's when things go to hell. I'm paraphrasing, but that was the general idea. He contends we need the guy @ qb that can put the team on his shoulders and win even though he doesn't have all of his starters to work with. In other words a big play quarterback. For the sake of the argument, let's say that Palmer is that qb. How does that mesh with the offensive grind it out philosphy / identity of the team ????? Do you see what I'm getting at ?? Are the Bengals the run it over you type with Rudi getting his 4.5 per pop, or are they the we'll burn you for a 90 yard pass and run from our own 10 featuring a 60 yard laser to CJ ??? Can they be both / either as the situation dictates ??????????

First off, excellent job, redsfan, of distilling my longwinded babble down to a couple sentences. Second, regarding how a big-play QB fits the offensive philosophy, I would say it is the big missing ingredient.

Remember, when they brought Brat aboard, they threw out the West Coast Offense-style playbook that had been the Bengals trademark for 20 years. In its place, they installed a scheme based on Don Coryell's famous "Air Coryell" offense, which took the Chargers into the playoffs three times in the late 70s and early 80s. That offense combined a strong running attack (led in its glory years by Chuck Muncie) with a long downfield passing game centered on another great CJ, Charlie Joiner. And what made it all come together was a Hall of Fame QB by the name of Dan Fouts.

The "Fouts" piece is all we lack to make "Air Bratiell" work. So, can we both get 4.5 yards on the ground and 90-yard pass plays? Not only can we, it's what the scheme calls for.

Now, Kitna *can* heave that ball downfield, but "heave" is the operative word. How often does he throw a long pass that hits a receiver in stride? How many times did we see/hear about how CJ or Warick made a great catch because they had to adjust and come back to the ball? That famous "lucky bounce" off Reed and into CJ's hands in the Baltimore game is a perfect example...99 times out of 100 that's an underthrown INT.

On the other hand, we know Palmer has a howitzer attached to his shoulder. He can make that downfield attack sing, no doubt. The question is, can he read defenses well enough, is he ready to call plays at the line, has he got the discipline to go through his reads, etc. That's where Kitna and his 8 years hold the advantage.

[WHO DEY AGAIN?]

Gents-I think if you read between the lines it has already been decided! Palmer is the starter unless he flops in the pre season. Kinta will accept being the number 2 guy and if he has to come in he will be the same Kitna we had this year.

I wouldn't bet my house on it but that's how I read it and more often than not I'm right.

[redsfan2]

I was wondering about that type of offense, but the example that came to mind was the Cowboys. Aikmen ... Smith and Co. They were pretty successful as well. I remember the Chargers well though. They were a legitemate 40 point offense. It really didn't matter who they were playing, they had the potential to score every time they had the ball and from anywhere on the field.

I think we've seen flashes of that this year, but I think the qb is only one of the pieces we're missing. Still like to see more out of K Wash, and as Kirk points out, it'd be nice if the opponents weren't able to tell what we were going to do based on which tight end was on the field.

As far as reading defenses, I think Palmer is up to it. I caught the piece they did on him when he sat down and went over the qb position with Jaworski. At the end off the piece, Jaws was walking out of the film room and loooked at one of the guys and said this kids a sponge. He soaks up everything you tell him. Of course it'll help too if he has a line to work with that will give him enough time to be able to read the defense.

As to distilling your post, I think there would be several guys on here who would be surprised at how closely and how many times I read what they've written. I've got a lot of respect for the level of knowledge that's displayed by a lot of the guys who post here.

[Kirkendall]

There's no doubt that Palmer will upgrade the offense. I haven't contested that. I was merely mentioning teams priority of resolution shouldn't be the QB at all; further down the "To Do" list.

Palmer has the physical attributes to become a great player. My love (manly love) of Kitna is his leadership in the huddle, the ability to convert on those 3rd downs (he did a lot), the last minute touchdowns (the floater to Schobel in Pitt II), quick reads, play audibles and things you learn while on the field; basically taking charge of the offense.

I refuse however to put my stock, that jumped 20-fold, into an unproven QB. He hasn't shown leadership skills, taking charge in the huddle, etc. But I know he hasn't been given that chance. I'm hesitate and have every right to be on a player that hasn't done anything yet.

MAN THIS WILL BE A FUN OFFSEASON. Typically every season about this time or after the super bowl, I'm talking Reds and how they will win the division (I'm one optimistic SOB). That won't happen this year.

[redsfan2]

There's no doubt that Palmer will upgrade the offense. I haven't contested that. I was merely mentioning teams priority of resolution shouldn't be the QB at all; further down the "To Do" list.

Palmer has the physical attributes to become a great player. My love (manly love) of Kitna is his leadership in the huddle, the ability to convert on those 3rd downs (he did a lot), the last minute touchdowns (the floater to Schobel in Pitt II), quick reads, play audibles and things you learn while on the field; basically taking charge of the offense.

I refuse however to put my stock, that jumped 20-fold, into an unproven QB. He hasn't shown leadership skills, taking charge in the huddle, etc. But I know he hasn't been given that chance. I'm hesitate and have every right to be on a player that hasn't done anything yet.

MAN THIS WILL BE A FUN OFFSEASON. Typically every season about this time or after the super bowl, I'm talking Reds and how they will win the division (I'm one optimistic SOB). That won't happen this year.

I'm glad the you specified that Palmer hadn't been given the chance to show anything in the NFL to this point. I read and listened to everything out there about him when it became obvious he was going to be a Bengal.

Actually leadership was one of his stong points coming out of college. Comments were that he had a presence in the huddle, and was well respected by the team. I'm sure he'll have a different style of leadership than Kitna. I think it would be a mistake on his part to try to copy Kitna or anyone else.

Have to say that you have a reason to be skeptical, but Palmer has had an entire season to watch and learn, and he'll have an entire training camp and pre season next year before he gets to start. He's got the physical tools, he's got the coaching, he hasn't been thrown to the wolves in his rookie year as a human sacrifice ....... He's got a lot going for him, and if he isn't able to make it at this point, then something is definitely wrong.

[jjakq27]

The other thing that might be in Palmer's favor is that the attention will be on E. Manning or Ben R. since they will probably be the first QB's picked. The national media will have moved on and that can only help.

[Kirkendall]

The other thing that might be in Palmer's favor is that the attention will be on E. Manning or Ben R. since they will probably be the first QB's picked. The national media will have moved on and that can only help.

Great point. Especially if one goes to the Raiders, that should surpress some pressure on Palmer nationally. B/c I expect the other to go to Arizona with Dennis Green there now installing an offense that should be good.

BTW - Arizona (the team) might be a really good team in the next 2-3 years. Good offensive line, young RB and Eli or Ben at QB. HUMM....

[HoosierCat]

I think we've seen flashes of that this year, but I think the qb is only one of the pieces we're missing. Still like to see more out of K Wash, and as Kirk points out, it'd be nice if the opponents weren't able to tell what we were going to do based on which tight end was on the field.

I think hopes for KW's continuing development are well-founded. He had, what, 250 yards and 4 TDs or something along those lines? Heck, at least in TDs, that beats The Cancer, who had 326 yards and only 1 TD his first year. And Carl had Boomer lofting the ball most of the ay.

But yeah, the TE thing bugs me, too. Time to get serious with Schobel, either he "gets it" re blocking or we go hunting.

As far as reading defenses, I think Palmer is up to it. I caught the piece they did on him when he sat down and went over the qb position with Jaworski. At the end off the piece, Jaws was walking out of the film room and loooked at one of the guys and said this kids a sponge. He soaks up everything you tell him. Of course it'll help too if he has a line to work with that will give him enough time to be able to read the defense.

I remember that piece, too. It's one reason I'm not too worried about Palmer. I'm sure he'll make his share of rookie blunders, but the bottom line for me is that the Bengals haven't had a more prepared "QB of the Future," nor a better team around him, since...well, since about ever.

As to distilling your post, I think there would be several guys on here who would be surprised at how closely and how many times I read what they've written. I've got a lot of respect for the level of knowledge that's displayed by a lot of the guys who post here.

Agreed. Not to start a (manly) love fest here, but this is a good board. The aol Bengals board used to be like this several years ago, but their service got pricey and bad and a lot of the posters left for an internet board, which I quit posting on when, bizarrely, the Marvin Lewis era made it an even *more* negative place than before. In short, glad I came here.

[HoosierCat]

Palmer has the physical attributes to become a great player. My love (manly love) of Kitna is his leadership in the huddle, the ability to convert on those 3rd downs (he did a lot), the last minute touchdowns (the floater to Schobel in Pitt II), quick reads, play audibles and things you learn while on the field; basically taking charge of the offense.

I refuse however to put my stock, that jumped 20-fold, into an unproven QB. He hasn't shown leadership skills, taking charge in the huddle, etc. But I know he hasn't been given that chance. I'm hesitate and have every right to be on a player that hasn't done anything yet.

MAN THIS WILL BE A FUN OFFSEASON.

Yup. It is already!

Re Kitna: I have no argument with the idea that he's the safe play. He might even be the smart play. IF he can continue to play at the level he played in our 8 wins, and IF we can tweak the defense to give up just 2-3 fewer points per game, and IF we can find some quality backups at key positions like LT -- and none of those "ifs" should be insurmountable challenges -- then this team would have a heck of a shot at the playoffs.

Conversely, the chances of Palmer coming off the bench and pulling a Brady or Pennington are pretty long...I think...aren't they...? But..what if...

I dunno. I don't envy Marvin this choice, and the difficulty of it is part of why I say it's the most important decision he has to make. It may not be the biggest *priority,* but I have a feeling it will easily be the decision with the most impact on next year.

My head says Kitna. My heart says Palmer.

[redsfan2]

I think Palmer has got to start. He was the centerpiece of the first draft by Marvin Lewis in conjunction with a newly expanded scouting department that got high marks for knowledge of the college talent.

Coach Lewis did everything but a DNA test on this kid to make sure he was legit. Remember Lewis and Palmer holed up watching film and talking about the position ????? That was supposed to be a second interview, and it ended up with them eating cold tacos for supper.

After all of that, Palmer was the unaninous choice of everybody in the organization. He's had a year to learn, and gotten rave reviews. He has to start not only for his own credibility but the coaches and managements as well. You have to admit that after all that research ..... and hype ......... and sitting for the first year, they'd all look pretty silly saying oops ..... looks like we had the guy we wanted all along. Palmer isn't really as good as we said and isn't as close to being ready as we said, so we'll let him sit another year and see what happens then.

Just don't see it happening. They've talked him up so much, that at this point they really have to kinda back it up or look like idiots ........ and no head coach rookie or otherwise wants to come out looking like and idiot.

Hype aside, I think Palmer will do well. I remember a couple of throws he made in pre season that had me going holy sh*%t ! I can't wait to see what he does now after having a year to take it all in.

[BengalszoneBilly]

I'm sure he's going to be able to hold his own with any other QB in the league. Manning included!