More receiver talk

[Irish Bengal]

OH MY GOD !

Is Kevin Walter paying for this site!

Look at his stats, he can't even crack the lineup on a banged up WR corp and everyone thinks he the next CJ.

There is a reason KW starts ahead of walters.

Great special teams play doesn't equate to great WR play no matter how hard you Practice.

Both have played two years:

Washington Career:

rec 53 yds 677 tds 7

Walters

rec 11 yds85 tds 0

Chad first 2 yrs:

rec 97 yds 1459 tds 6

He's no Chad but he's worth keeping for his 3rd year which seems to be the breakout year for most WRs anyway.

[thefrazz]

Yeah, but Washington couldn't hold Walters jock strap on special teams. Walter is one reason we have done a 180 in special teams play. It's a team effort, and with the limited amout of players allowed on the roster, you have to have multi-dimensional players or you are going to be one injury short in a position.

However, like I said before, keep Walter and Washington and trade or squad Tab Perry. I like Brussard (sp) as well, but I don't think he has good enough hands to make the team.

[HairOnFire]

Yeah, but Washington couldn't hold Walters jock strap on special teams. Walter is one reason we have done a 180 in special teams play. It's a team effort, and with the limited amout of players allowed on the roster, you have to have multi-dimensional players or you are going to be one injury short in a position.

Washington may not be Walter's equal as a special teams warrior, but I doubt that fact is keeping him up at night. The fact remains that fans who describe Kevin Walter as being multi-dimensional are ignoring the fact that he isn't anything of the sort. He's simply a valued special team player who has filled almost no role within the Bengals base offense, and a player who hasn't flashed much potential in the relatively few playing opportunities he's gotten. If he's suddenly on the verge of doing more, well....that's great. But why is Walter's so-called potential so much more likely to be reached than Washington's?

The article doesn't say, does it?

The claim of being a one-dimensional player now leveled against Washington seems ridiculous to me when you consider the fact that he actually has a regular playing role within the Bengals offense, has already gotten some important playing time, and has actually flashed some production when given an opportunity. Hardly perfect stuff I guess, and the ways he'll have to improve have already been discussed in other threads. Better still, the coaches have already discussed them with Washington and some sources claim the early results are encouraging.

What's that you say? Washington doesn't play on special teams? Well isn't that where most teams stash their backup linebackers & secondary players, a couple of tightends, and any wideouts they might have that never see more than a lick or two of playing time? Yeah, it is. So if I was in the mood that's where I start looking for a Kevin Walter. But oddly though, it's not the first place I'd look for Kelley Washington. No, I think I'd start looking for him by checking out where the offense was practicing.

Look at it this way, if Walters didn't have the gunner role to fall back on would any of you consider him a multi-dimensional receiver? No, you wouldn't. In fact, if you eliminate the gunner role from consideration most of you wouldn't even consider Walters to be worth mentioning in a truly stacked WR competition.

[Irish Bengal]

Well said Haironfire!

I Totally agree with you!!!!

[thefrazz]

I agree that if Walters didn't have the special teams talent he would most likely not be playing in the NFL. However, his contribution to the team with special team skills is a key reason he is playing. With the talent we have at WR the weakest link could very well be based on lack of the ability to work on special teams.

Example:

Chad Johnson and TJ are the only shew-ins IMO

So now you have Warrick, Washington, Henry, Walter, Brousard, and a hand full of others who have to show their worth. Henry is perhaps the only one of this list that will most likely make the team being a pure receiver. Tab Perry may make the team based on special teams (return ability that was mentioned on draft day for the reason he was drafted), however that is not certain due to Ratliffs and O'Neils ability to return kicks.

I'm sure you remember the importance Marvin put on players working special teams in addition to their regular roles, and ironically it is not you or I who cut players, but it is him. I'm just saying, based off what Marvin has said in the past, and if that stands true, Walter will have a spot in the line up because of what he brings to the table as far as special teams.

If Walter picks up his game and become good enough to be the #4 or 5 WR, then good for him. If not, and so long as he keeps his special teams play on the up-n-up, then I think Marvin will provide a spot in the line up for him.

[HairOnFire]

Both have played two years:

Washington Career:

rec 53 yds 677 tds 7

Walters

rec 11 yds85 tds 0

I was already aware of the fact that Kevin Walter has never scored a TD for the Bengals, but I don't think I had truly come to grips with how limited he is as a WR until I looked at his stats and realized that he was averaging less than 8 yards gained per reception. To be exact, it's 7.73 ypc. Or if you prefer, he managed to gain an average of more than 5 yards less per grab than the supposedly unforgivable disappointment that is K-Dub.

Hey, go figure. In two seasons Walter's has produced less than 90 yards of offensive production while averaging less than 8 yards per catch and despite the fact that he's never scored a TD....somebody wrote an article about him.

[derekshank]

Hey, go figure. In two seasons Walter's has produced less than 90 yards of offensive production while averaging less than 8 yards per catch and despite the fact that he's never scored a TD....somebody wrote an article about him.

I guess that is kind of the point. Given the fact that he has really not accomplished anything worthy of note, someone managed to take note of him. Hey, it's just one guys opinion, and he may have his head up his ass, I really don't know.

I do find it interesting though that a guy that most casual Bengal fans haven't even heard of managed to have an article written about him. It might mean that he has worked his butt off, while Washington has spent the off-season trying to get that stupid end-zone celebration to look less like a mentally handicapped seizure accompanied by diarrhea.

Like I said, this guy could be way off, and before this article was written I fully expected Washington to make the team, given how down everyone was on Housh last summer before he became quite productive. But I do think it is an interesting point that if Walters can develop into even a somewhat serviceable receiver, Washington has less to offer. With Chad, Housh, Henry, and a healthy (healthy being purely speculation) Warrick, what need do we have with another pure receiver? I would think the greater need would be special teams help.

Before HairOnFire crucifies me, let it be known that I have no inside knowledge, and don't pretend to. I'm sure whoever is the better player makes the team, but better player doesn't necessarily mean better receiver. That is my only point. I still would not be in the least bit surprized if Washington makes the team, but with Big O saying he couldn't catch a thing at minicamp, and the fact that he seems very much like a prima donna, I wouldn't shed a tear as he hit the road.

[BENGAL]

I think everyone underestimates how valuable Walters is on Special Teams right now, and not one of us has any idea how good a receiver he can be. Sometimes good players wait their turn.

I can't speak for "everyone" but I'm not underestimating Walters value to special teams as much as I'm sticking to my pre-draft opinion that the Bengals were looking to add wideouts who could do more than perform a special teams role....an important point the Bengals confirmed immediately after they had selected Henry and Perry.

A puffy article waxing poetically about the impossible-to-stop receiving abilities of Kevin Walters isn't enough to make me forget that however disappointed some fans are with Kelley Washington...the fact remains that Washington has dramatically outperformed Walters within the offense. Nor can I forget that Walter's gunner role is important, but it's also a bottom of the roster role that gets a near constant turnover on most teams.

And last, when that article starts talking about Walters finally developing potential into production I simply nod my head a bit and wonder aloud if the exact same things could be said about Washington if the writer had decided to make him the feel good story of the moment.

The only reason Washington had outperformed Walter on the offense is because he has had more opportunities to actually play offense. I say lets give Walter the same playing time K Wash has had a see who outperforms who.

Also, the news writer could have easily made Washington the "feel good story of the moment". However he chose to acknowledge Kevin Walter's ability to be an integral part of our offense when he is given the opportunity.

[BENGAL]

For the first time in years, the Cincinnati Bengals head into training camp loaded with quality depth at the wide receiver position. A good thing, yes! However, it will be no easy task when it comes time to reduce their roster. This means some talented receivers could eventually hit the open market courtesy of the Bengals.

Chad Johnson and T.J. Houshmandzadeh are the only two receivers guaranteed a spot, leaving veterans like Peter Warrick and Kelley Washington to fight for a place on the roster during training camp.

Although a number of receivers will be vying for a position, the one guy that may already have a leg up on the rest is Kevin Walter. The 6-foot-3, 218-pound receiver made it extremely difficult to be ignored with his performance during the team's recent minicamp.

Walter showed that he is steadily improving by being consistent and making plays. He was strong off the line, quick, ran good routes and demonstrated outstanding blocking skills. He also showed that he can stretch the field when he blew past CB Tory James and made a nice one-handed grab along the sideline before being pushed out of bounds. The sure-handed receiver was even more impressive during red zone drills when he put a move on CB Deltha O'Neal that left him caught like a deer in headlights, freeing Walter up to catch a touchdown pass in the back corner of the end zone.

To improve his game, Walter said over the off-season he worked on his flexibility and watched lots of film as well as studying teammate Chad Johnson in an effort to try and pick up some of his techniques to become a more well-rounded receiver.

Selected by the New York Giants in the seventh round of the 2003 draft, Walter was released by the team out of training camp and claimed off waivers by the Bengals. There are several NFL scouts who feel that the Giants may have given up too quickly on Walter, much like the organization did with Ed McCaffrey and Joe Jurevicius, who both went on to receive Super Bowl rings with other clubs.

The Bengals have been patiently waiting for Walter to develop, mainly because they love his upside. Some see him evolving into a possession-type receiver and a go-to-guy in clutch situations. Keep in mind that this kid was regarded as the premier receiver in the Mid-American Conference in 2002, so he's no slouch.

Not oblivious to the situation that surrounds him, Walter understands what it will take in order for him to make the squad.

"I just have to work hard," he said. "I just have to go out there each day and work harder, make plays, and show them that I deserve to be on this team.

"Whenever my name is called, go out there and catch the ball and contribute somehow. Whether it is on special-teams, I definitely can contribute right away on special teams, or do whatever it is they want me to do. That's my role."

Walter is very versatile and could be used in a number of ways, including the H-back position, where he spent some time playing in college. Not to mention he's a special-teams demon.

Many of the receivers on this team have their work cut out for them, but the one I think that could be in some real danger of being knifed is Kelley Washington. Although he performed well in minicamp, Washington — who feels the need to imitate Freddie "Rerun" Stubbs from the TV sitcom "What's Happening" by "pop-locking" and gyrating after every reception — could be an odd man out. Washington's underachieving and excessive celebrating is undoubtedly growing weary in Cincy and like What's Happening, he too may be canceled.

Let me answer some questions for some of the ignorant people on this board...

Why has K Wash outperformed Walter? Maybe its because he has had more of an opportunity!!!! Give Walter as much PT as Wash and the we will really see who the better player is.

Why did a someone write an article about Walter over Washington or anyone else? Because he really stood out is this months mini-camp. I was there and have to say he caught my eye as well. He outperformed Washinton by far.

To me K Washinton is a flashy, cocky guy that does not have the goods to back up his antics. Kevin Walter may not dance around the field and run his mouth but as far as I am concerned its the quiet ones who come out of nowhere when given the chance and really shake things up. Mark my words, from what I have seen, if he gets some PT the kid is gonna make some plays...

[WhoDey]

TO KEVIN WALTER FANS...

Its good to know that another one of our guys is developing into a good receiver...I really hope he has a breakout 3rd season!

TO ANTI-WALTER FANS...

Instead of noting point by point all the things Kevin Walter has not done in the past you should focus on what he is doing now and be thrilled that we may just have one more talented guy on this team to make plays for us!

[HairOnFire]

Let me answer some questions for some of the ignorant people on this board...

Why has K Wash outperformed Walter? Maybe its because he has had more of an opportunity!!!! Give Walter as much PT as Wash and the we will really see who the better player is.

Well aren't you the bright one? You've now written two posts that say exactly the same thing, Washington has produced because he's gotten the opportunities that Walters hasn't.

So how much time do you need before you figure out who gave those opportunities to Washington even though Walters was available?

[HairOnFire]

Why did a someone write an article about Walter over Washington or anyone else? Because he really stood out is this months mini-camp. I was there and have to say he caught my eye as well. He outperformed Washinton by far.

To me K Washinton is a flashy, cocky guy that does not have the goods to back up his antics. Kevin Walter may not dance around the field and run his mouth but as far as I am concerned its the quiet ones who come out of nowhere when given the chance and really shake things up.

First, Kevin Walter has never shaken anything up as a Bengal wideout. No scores, less than a dozen catches, and an average per catch that would probably bring shame to even a crippled TE.

Second, most of the criticism being tossed at Kelley Washington in this thread deals with his idiotic pop-lock routine. Fair enough, I don't like it either. That said, when it comes to grading wideouts I have a hard time figuring out how the bad dancing matters. Wideouts are supposed to catch passes, make 1st downs, and occasionaly score. Washington does that. Walters makes special teams tackles.

Last, wake me when they hand out trophies during mini-camp.

[schweinhart]

C'mon Hair. Walter might not be the next McCafrey or Jurevicius but he damn sure could be the next Jeff Query

I only noticed Walter catching short outs and comebacks but don't seem like he ever had any YAC at all. Maybe he's a Dane Looker, Kevin Curtis, or even Drew Bennett waiting to happen but odds are against it.

I'm looking forward to the WR show during pre-season games but not so much K-Dub or Walter. Mainly P-Dub if he ever gets medically cleared but also Henry and to a lesser extent Broussard and J-Cock.

[Spain]

It comes down to this would you rather have aproject or a lazy underperformer? I think Marvin might keep Brousard and Walter. Rather than KW (lazy) and Warrik (lasy year of a contract).IMHo

[7/11]

Why not put Tab Perry on the practice squad? Is there really any team who would snatch him up?

my guess:

1. cj85

2. tj

3. washington

4. henry

5. walter

6. perry

perry would get snatched in a heartbeat. the film on him that i saw was pretty damn nice. it was a highlight reel, but his skills were awesome. good hands as far as i could tell, but once he got the ball, he was GREAT after the catch. juke-moves, power moves, burst. i was surprised when i saw it b/c it didn't look like a 6th rounder. i dug up a little info. on him after we drafted him and the reason he fell to the 6th is b/c he got kicked out of school for plagiarizing a paper. that, along with playin in the pac-10 prolly knocked him back some. i've tried to find video footage on the internet but i haven't been able to. the guy was pretty sick though, and they say he's good on special teams too...he should have no problem making the 53-man.

i think will all the young talent we have, warrick's out. at this point, since washington's been apparently havin a real good off-season, and since 85 and 84 are a solid 1-2 combo, i think marvin would feel comfortable having washington, walter and the two rooks on the roster.

[bengalboomer7]

You gotta have guys like Walter on the team. But this is a pretty heated thread for the fifth wideout position

As far as kelly goes. A man's potential can only be realized with determination. Kelly doesn't perform up to his potential cause he's lazy and thinks too highly of himself probably.

But the million dollar question is.. Who will be on the team?

Well, don't ask me cause I don't know

[Spain]

Your posting with diehards dont forget that. Our opinions differ alot but everyone on this board is a very knowlegable fan. IMHO

[HairOnFire]

I'm looking forward to the WR show during pre-season games but not so much K-Dub or Walter. Mainly P-Dub if he ever gets medically cleared but also Henry and to a lesser extent Broussard and J-Cock.

I'd argue that the most interesting battle in the coming wideout wars will be between Warrick and his doctors. After that it's a question of whether Kelley Washington makes the team based upon the way the coaches feel about him and him alone. Simply put, the presence of Kevin Walters won't play much of a factor in the decision making concerning Washington. If Washington manages to impress the coaches then there isn't a thing Kevin Walter can do to take Washingtons job. Seriously, not a single thing. Last, even if Washington is cut loose I think most of us know that it won't be Walters who assumes Washington's role in the offense.

[Kazkal]

I'm looking forward to the WR show during pre-season games but not so much K-Dub or Walter. Mainly P-Dub if he ever gets medically cleared but also Henry and to a lesser extent Broussard and J-Cock.

I'd argue that the most interesting battle in the coming wideout wars will be between Warrick and his doctors. After that it's a question of whether Kelley Washington makes the team based upon the way the coaches feel about him and him alone. Simply put, the presence of Kevin Walters won't play much of a factor in the decision making concerning Washington. If Washington manages to impress the coaches then there isn't a thing Kevin Walter can do to take Washingtons job. Seriously, not a single thing. Last, even if Washington is cut loose I think most of us know that it won't be Walters who assumes Washington's role in the offense.

It's henry & I'm sure KW could pick up with a team that would probbley use him @ #2 WR alot of teams are lacking decent WR"s /cough seahawks

[HairOnFire]

You gotta have guys like Walter on the team. But this is a pretty heated thread for the fifth wideout position

Not sure about the heat check, but I'll toss in a spare smilie if you think it'll help. In fact, I don't think I've ever used this one before. --->

Ninja?

Burka-clad woman in hiding?

Frightened hockey puck?

As for having guys like Walters on the team, I like him just fine and I respect the role he plays. But I'm sorry, I wasn't at mini-camp so I didn't see Walter burst out of his protective cocoon before catching every pass, properly running every route, and yeah...rushing to shut off the drinking water some fugtarded RB was mindlessly allowing to empty onto the ground. No, all I've seen of Walters as a Bengal wideout is what I've seen in games....and that's not nearly enough for me to consider Walters a quality WR.

[WhoDey]

You gotta have guys like Walter on the team. But this is a pretty heated thread for the fifth wideout position

Not sure about the heat check, but I'll toss in a spare smilie if you think it'll help. In fact, I don't think I've ever used this one before. --->

Ninja?

Burka-clad woman in hiding?

Frightened hockey puck?

As for having guys like Walters on the team, I like him just fine and I respect the role he plays. But I'm sorry, I wasn't at mini-camp so I didn't see Walter burst out of his protective cocoon before catching every pass, properly running every route, and yeah...rushing to shut off the drinking water some fugtarded RB was mindlessly allowing to empty onto the ground. No, all I've seen of Walters as a Bengal wideout is what I've seen in games....and that's not nearly enough for me to consider Walters a quality WR.

Good thing we are not talking about last season...Good thing coaches aren't making decisions this year based on that...They are focused on what is happening now, and you should be too!!!!

[HairOnFire]

Good thing we are not talking about last season...Good thing coaches aren't making decisions this year based on that...They are focused on what is happening now, and you should be too!!!!

Actually, among other things I think we're definately talking about last season and I believe the coaches will take last season into account as they plan for this season. As for focusing on what's happening now, well....right now I'm arguing with you about why you think Kevin Walter is the answer to a question nobody has bothered asking.

Look, ignore the pop-lockin' stupidity that is Kelley Washington after a 1st down grab or TD catch. Put that guy out of your mind for a moment. What in the world would make anyone think Kevin Walter is capable of assuming Washington's role even if Washington is cut loose?

[membengal]

Good thing we are not talking about last season...Good thing coaches aren't making decisions this year based on that...They are focused on what is happening now, and you should be too!!!!

Put that guy out of your mind for a moment. What in the world would make anyone think Kevin Walter is capable of assuming Washington's role even if Washington is cut loose?

Substitute "Rudi Johnson" for "Kevin Walter" and "Dillon" for "Washington" in your above paragraph, and that would have encapsulated what we knew about Johnson prior to him getting his first chance to steady carries.

Point is, nothing to point to, but no reason to suspect he cannot unless and until he gets steady time to show it. Perhaps he is making that case to the coaches now, that is all people are really wondering about. If he is indeed stepping up his receiving game, that, in conjunction with his obvious value to the special teams might be enough to get him the spot over Washington, that's all people are really saying about him, to my read on this subject. It's all I mean to say about him. I don't think he is an All-Pro waiting to happen, but I am not at all sure that he is a zero at WR like you seem to be advocating either. I have not seen enough. His touches have been very limited thusfar. Perhaps they won't be soon. Or perhaps he will get cut. Or perhaps he is improving, the coaches see it, and that plus his special teams work gets him to the team ahead of Washington. At this point, I lean to that last interpretation, but that is before camp, pre-season games, injuries etc.

[andybren]

My head is spinning...contrary to what I posted earlier, there really isn't a point to comparing KWash and KWalt. When it comes down to it, KWash's competition is PDub and Henry for the #3 spot. If KWash drops down to #4, and doesn't play special teams, then he's history. I think you gotta use your #4-6 spots to develop future starters, and to press your current starters to work harder. KWash doesn't fit in that role anymore. KWalt and Perry do.

I'm just wondering if he'll do the squirrel in Baltimore. When he's playing for the Ravens.

[schweinhart]

The rub w/ K-Dub is separation, holding on to the ball, and performing over the middle. Housh overcame the same obstacles last year through focus and better body control w/ less recklessness after the catch.

But the Bengals need a WR to catch over the middle and produce YAC on short stops and outs. P-Dub seems best skilled for it. Right now I don't see K-Dub, Henry, Tab, or Walter being able to do this well enough. J-Cock and Broussard might have be able to but they are Giacomo longshots.