Lenny on Thurman, Big Willie

[HoosierCat]

from his latest tip sheet. good stuff, tho the only thing we didn't already know is the bengals' starting point for extension talks with Willie, mentioned at the very end.:

Judging from the verbal bouquets being tossed around by Marvin Lewis, it appears second-round draft choice Odell Thurman will be the Cincinnati Bengals' fourth different starting middle linebacker on opening day in the last four years. He'll also be the fifth different starting MLB overall – Kevin Hardy all of 2003, then Nate Webster, Caleb Miller and Landon Johnson in 2004 – under Lewis' stewardship. Lewis said this week he will be surprised if Thurman and former Georgia teammate and first-round pick David Pollack aren't in the Bengals' opening day lineup at two of the linebacker spots.

The sudden ascension of Thurman, who might actually be further along the learning curve than Pollack (who is making the transition from college defensive end), should not be that surprising. Most scouts felt Thurman possessed some of the top pure football skills in the 2005 draft class and he always played with great instinct and intensity. But the reality is that most teams do not invest first-round choices on middle linebackers, and that Thurman's off-field problems at Georgia probably conspired to keep him out of the top round. Still, plenty of personnel people realized that, in terms of a terrific football player, the Bengals got a steal by grabbing Thurman with the 48th overall selection. Lewis' flattering words about Thurman this week only confirmed that.

The new defense installed by first-year coordinator Chuck Bresnahan is similar to the one in which Thurman played at Georgia, and that, too, has helped. It doesn't hurt, either, that Thurman has an undeniable presence and an air of confidence. The unsolicited concession by Lewis that Pollack and Thurman likely will be starters is further indication that he is anything but reluctant to use young players. And why not? In Lewis' first two seasons, the Cincinnati defense statically ranked 28th (in 2003) and 19th (in 2004) overall, and 25th and 26th versus the run, respectively. Sometimes you're just better off putting kids on the field and allowing them to grow, even if it means an aggressive mistake, right?

Of the team's projected starters on defense for 2005, the Bengals figure to have a pair of second-year veterans (right end Robert Geathers and free safety Madieu Williams) along with Pollack and Thurman. The defensive lineup probably will have just two players – weak-side linebacker Brian Simmons and right corner Tory James – starting at the spots they did for Lewis' regular-season debut in 2003.

• On the offensive side of the ball for the Bengals, the agent for right tackle Willie Anderson, who is second on the club's list in years of continuous service, met with Cincinnati officials last week to propose an extension for his client. In the wake of the deals signed by tackles Orlando Pace (St. Louis), Walter Jones (Seattle), Ryan Diem (Indianapolis), Jonas Jennings (San Francisco) and Kareem McKenzie (New York Giants) this offseason, agent Terry Bolar is seeking similarly big dollars for Anderson, a nine-year veteran who has played his entire career in Cincinnati.

But there doesn't figure to be a quick resolution to this negotiation. Anderson is still rehabilitating from offseason knee surgery and isn't scheduled to get onto the field until training camp. Given that Anderson turns 30 next month, the Bengals are inclined to wait until camp, and then assess his recovery. Plus Anderson has two years remaining on his current contract, at base salaries of $3.85 million for 2005 and $4.75 million for 2006 and Cincinnati doesn't usually discuss an extension with a player who has more than one year on his deal.

Bolar, who is looking for a five-year extension that would take Anderson through the 20ll campaign, when he would be 36 years old, makes some good points: Anderson has been a Pro Bowl player and an All-Pro, no small feats in Cincinnati, and is a guy who has embraced a franchise some peers have shunned. Signing Anderson to a long extension, in essence making him a Bengal for life, would send a positive message to some of the club's younger players. For now, though, Bengals officials aren't biting on the five-year model. They have floated a three-year deal with guaranteed money in the $10 million range (not exactly what Bolar had in mind, but still a positive starting point), and are likely to stick to an offer in that area.

full story: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...d=2081949&num=0

[Spain]

Gret post. the ? I have is does stacey Andrews have anything to do with the decision to offer three years.

[bengalboomer7]

I think his age is also a big factor in a three year deal. Football players generally (here comes all the names to prove this statement wrong) turn to poop after 30-32. Age 36 is kind of old to have a guys locked up for about 6mill. Andrews could have some influence as well

As far as Thurman goes, that guy just looks scary. I'm a little nervous about having a rookie calling out defenses and I'm tired of waiting for next year to be the year, so I hope Marvin gets this one right.

On another note, could he be saying this cause Landon is out. Wasn't it about a month ago when he named LJ the starter?

[DontPushMe]

Landon Johnson will probly end up bumping Brian Simmons out of the starting lineup by next year, he was never really meant to be a MLB.

[jditty47]

Landon Johnson will probly end up bumping Brian Simmons out of the starting lineup by next year, he was never really meant to be a MLB.

i like u dontpushme but this time u've crossed the line. simmons is the most consistent player on our roster and now he might actually have ppl that can raise his game? man...i see how u see dillon but come on my man.

[DontPushMe]

Simmons is overrated, always has been. Im not saying hes a bad player, hes not, but hes never really made enough plays. His already what 30? He will start slowing down in a year or 2, and his speed was always overrated. Im not saying hes a bad player, but i think Lewis has plans on replacing him with a younger and faster Landon Johnson.

[jditty47]

i doubt it.

[HoosierCat]

Now, let me get this straight, Pushy: in the Prisco's top 50 thread, you object to Spikes getting such a low ranking...yet Simmons is overrated because he doesn't make enough plays?

Hmmm...let's see...Spikes' career sacks: 19.5. Simmons: 19

FF? Spikes 10 (1 TD), Simmons 9 (1 TD)

Picks? Spikes 12 (3 TD), Simmons 7 (2 TD)

And that's 7 years of Spikes vs. 6 years of Simmons, who was out all of 2000. Adjust his numbers for that and the "difference" between the two works out to about 10 tackles in Spikes' favor a year.

But Simmons is overrated and Spikes belongs in the top 50 players in the league? Try again, troll.

[bengalboomer7]

Can't argue with numbers

[TecmoFever]

Regardless of the Simmons talks, it's nice to have a guy like Landon Johnson around who can play different LB positions. I agree that he's more suited to play ROLB than MLB.

[OSUBengal]

This is great!

I'm a little nervous about starting two rookies at LB, but if Marvin thinks they're ready then I trust him!

[DontPushMe]

Now, let me get this straight, Pushy: in the Prisco's top 50 thread, you object to Spikes getting such a low ranking...yet Simmons is overrated because he doesn't make enough plays?

Hmmm...let's see...Spikes' career sacks: 19.5. Simmons: 19

FF? Spikes 10 (1 TD), Simmons 9 (1 TD)

Picks? Spikes 12 (3 TD), Simmons 7 (2 TD)

And that's 7 years of Spikes vs. 6 years of Simmons, who was out all of 2000. Adjust his numbers for that and the "difference" between the two works out to about 10 tackles in Spikes' favor a year.

But Simmons is overrated and Spikes belongs in the top 50 players in the league? Try again, troll.

Once again, watch the games please. Its so hard to argue with a stat guy. Spikes is a great leader who fires up his defense. Simmons is a quiet follower. Find those in your stat sheets. Simmons is just a guy, Spikes is a leader and a great player.

[jditty47]

i agree that spikes is great at his position...so is simmons. simmons just doesnt get the notariaty that spikes does cuz he doesnt promote himself and hes never been traded, demanded more money, basically he flies under the radar. and how can u say hes just a guy. let me remind u that he is the same age as spikes...and he basically has the same kind of production...do you really think the bengals would bench him? negro plz.

[Spain]

I kinda think the guy is a lil overrated but I heard Marvin on a radio show singing his and Justins praises. He aparrently thinks these guys have been victimized by the defensive units we haev fielded in the pàst.

[redsfan2]

I kinda think the guy is a lil overrated but I heard Marvin on a radio show singing his and Justins praises. He aparrently thinks these guys have been victimized by the defensive units we haev fielded in the pàst.

He pretty much said the same thing about a couple of db's right before he cut them as well as his defensive coordinator .... right before he fired him.

The main thing that coach Lewis says that I BELIEVE is " don't let anything or anyone get in the way of winning". That's pretty clear.

[redsfan2]

Spikes is a great leader who fires up his defense. Simmons is a quiet follower. Find those in your stat sheets. Simmons is just a guy, Spikes is a leader and a great player.

Simmons is way too comfortable playing in someone elses' shadow for my tastes. He was downright eager to let Hardy assume a leadership role with the team as soon as they signed him.

Having said that ..... Spikes CAN turn it up when he decides to. Like he did against Baltimore in his last season here ..... again against the Pats his first year in Siberia ... and of course when he made his return debut here. He can then turn into the invisible man ... or at least act like he's playing in a cage. Come into his area and he'll hit you good ..... of course that's usually after you've gained 5 to 7 yards.

I would have to agree that Simmons has never lived up to his potential, but I would also have to agree with the coach on his assessment of Spikes. " He plays for the Bills ... and that's good ". He as well as CD sort of ceased to exist as far as I'm concerned once they jumped ship here.

[HoosierCat]

Once again, watch the games please. Its so hard to argue with a stat guy. Spikes is a great leader who fires up his defense. Simmons is a quiet follower. Find those in your stat sheets. Simmons is just a guy, Spikes is a leader and a great player.

right back at ya, troll-boy.

I do watch the games, and -- as Redsfan accurately notes -- if I had a nickel for every tackle Spikes made 5-7 yards down the field I'd be a rich man.

Funny how every time the stats show you're wrong, you dismiss the stats. First Rudi, now Brian. Go back to Boston, troll-boy.

[CTBengalsFan]

it's good to see DontPushMe has a hard-on for every ex-Bengal who bitched his way out of town...

[andybren]

I can't believe I agree with DPM, but I think Landon will take over for Simmons as soon as he's healthy and Odell is fully up-to-speed on the system. I, for one, have never heard of a 30 year old athlete 'stepping up their game' to levels they've never reached before. And if Simmon's underwelming career has been a result of the players around him, then what was going on those years he played alongside Spikes?

And last year ML said that he expected Simmons and Justin Smith to step up their leadership, so its hardly surprising that he would give them a little extra support in the media. He did the same for Leon and we all saw how that played out.

Landon-Odell-Pollack. The future starts now. Or at least by the bye week.

[NJ29]

What's with all of the hate on Simmons? The guy has been a consistent playmaker on the defense for years, and still some people want to dump him.The yguy was our best linebacker by a stretch last year, but still the doubts.

[derekshank]

Positives

What makes Simmons a huge asset is that he makes all the plays expected of him. He rarely misses a tackle and rarely makes a mental mistake. He is the Bengals’ playmaker at linebacker. In two seasons with playing for Marvin Lewis, Simmons has five forced fumbles, five fumble recoveries, four interceptions, 2.5 sacks and a TD. At 29 years old he still in the prime of his career and will continue to be the Bengals’ best linebacker hands down in '05.

Negatives

The biggest problem Simmons faces is the lack of a road grader at DT to protect him. To compensate the Bengals have moved him around the formation a lot over the past two seasons trying to keep him "clean". The problem with this approach is that offensive coordinators watch too much film and are sometimes able to take him out of the play.

Outlook

Simmons has recorded just 71 and 73 solo tackles respectively over the past two seasons. While hardly enough to get excited about, with his big play value it’s enough to make him a decent third starter or a very solid backup. There will be some minor tweaks to the scheme this season under new DC Chuck Bresnahan including the use of a 3-4 alignment on passing downs in which Simmons will likely line up at OLB. Cincinnati is now in its third year under Marvin Lewis which means the players should be completely comfortable with the scheme. The coaches no longer have to hold anything back. At worst Simmons will be as productive as he's been in the recent past. At best he could put up 85 solo tackles and make 10-12 impact plays along the way.

[derekshank]

sorry about that... I was pasting that from the fantasy football guys website http://www.footballguys.com/SimmBr99-1.htm , and accidentally hit Add reply before I could add my own comments.

The fact is that Simmons has underacheived compared to what was expected out of him when he was drafted, but if all you want from him is a good player, he is more than adequate. He will be far and away the quietest of our LB's this year, and he has no desire to be a leader.

We can complain about this, but at least he knows himself. I'd rather someone who is not equipped to be a leader be willing to just be a role player, than fake it as a leader. Not everyone has the same personality... and while those fiery guys are good for teams in ways that stats can't argue for, Simmons is still by far our most experienced, and at this point best LB.

Landon Johnson is not nearly ready to take over for him yet. I don't know where he'll be a year from now, but at this point he is not an upgrade, even if healthy.

I also don't know anything about Johnson's leadership ability, but with Thurman and Pollack in the mix, I kind of hope he is the quiet type... too many cooks in the kitchen if you know what I mean. With the new guys that are up and coming, we are in no short supply of vocal leadership, so lets just allow Simmons to play the role he plays... which he does quite well at.

[HoosierCat]

I don't think Brian has underperformed his draft position. Certainly, he was a better pick than Anthony Simmons, who went to the Hags two picks earlier.

As for "leadership," IMHO it's overrated. How much ink was spilled two years ago telling us about how Carson Palmer wasn't a leader? That he'd never be successful in the NFL because he didn't act like Howard Dean at an Iowa primary in the huddle?

Any complaints now? Didn't think so.

Or take Pushy's favorite player in the whole wide universe, Corey Dillon. Not much of a leader there, eh? In fact, he's said as much, that he doesn't want to be a leader, just one of the guys. Hasn't stopped him from being held up as a great running back.

How about Jon Kitna? Book on him is that he's a great leader, everyone really likes him. But being a great leader hasn't put any rings on his fingers. Why does he say Carson will be better than him? Because, he says, Carson can do things physically he can't.

Leadership is a nice extra. Making plays is what counts.

[CBin2k7]

We just can't cast aside Brian Simmons for all that he is done and can still do, but how do we keep Landon Johnson off the field, it just seemed like he was getting better the more he played, and the fact that he was playing injured.

Moving him back to his more natural outside linebacker position, this guy could be special. I guess it's a good problem to have and why we will see some 3-4 this year.

[new bengal fan]

I watched virtually all of David Pollack's 40+ games at UGA and Bengal fans are going to love how he plays the game. The guy is ultra productive and his athletic ability is vastly underrated.

Odell Thurman has also showed signs of being a big time play maker in the NFL. However, he played only two years at UGA and he was not as productive in this 2nd year (likely partly due to him being suspended for the first 3 three games of the 2nd season).

Regardless, I am a converted Bengals fan and will be signing up for the DirecTv NFL package to follow the Bengals.