Graves Fiasco

[Kirkendall]

I think the important thing to remember, is the Reds have turned from a clubhouse of players that don't care about winning. Whinning because of removed comfort chairs? Whinning about Graves being let go? Where's the whinning when this team is in last place and 12 games behind first place IN MAY!

I'm kinda getting tired of the losing attitude with the Reds now. This is Bengals pre-Marvin.

[bengalboomer7]

One word sums it up, MANAGEMENT. You can't tell me the Reds don't have talent. Sure, our best pitcher is probably the third option and Griffey's medical history is as long as a novel now, but this whole TEAM is underachieving big time! What happened to the potential of kearns, Dunn, Freel, Lopez, and the young guys like that. This team is seriously missing the leadership skills that a guy like Barry Larkin could have provided. The emotion that was shown with the win last night was great, but we need that on a nightly basis.

And to get back on my management rant, you are absolutely right Kirk, this is like the Bengals of the 90's, they just don't have a clue right now. I thought that maybe with this years hike in our spending that maybe we were getting sone higher quality players but we are just paying more for s**tty guys! PATHETIC! No its' so bad it's PO-THETIC!

[redsfan2]

One word sums it up, MANAGEMENT.

Amen Brother !!!!

The real reason that s**t rolls downhill is that it STARTS AT THE TOP ! Miley gets a bye from me .... for now, because I don't think he's been given the support he needs from those other idiots.

Instead of the " Graves fiasco" ..... this could have just as easily been " The Latest Fiasco ". It's been one thing after another with these guys since they got in the drivers seat and ran the Big Red Machine right into the ditch.

#1 on my list is Allen because I think he's got his hand up Uncle Carls back and is responsible for 99.9% of the absolute s**t that's been going on.

#2 would have to be Uncle Carl himself ...... because even he should have been able to figure out #1 by now.

#3 is O'Brien ...... mainly because I don't like his face ... but also because he toes the company line without so much as a peep of his own .......... which is probably why he got the job in the first place.

I'm done now

[bengalboomer7]

You know you can go even higher than that. It all starts with the MLB itself any way. I'm sure you've heard this rant before, but how can a team worht 50 mill compete with a team that pays 150 mill. Franchises like the Reds get bypassed from the get go, the playing field is so uneven in MLB teams like the Reds only have a small chance in hell to win anyway. So smaller franchise like us have to wait until underpaid guys all click together at once and win(sound like 1990, who really thought we should beat the A's) Even if a palyer would grow up in Cincy, who in their right mind would take 10 mill over 40 mill. Simple Math doesn't allow for the Reds to compete. Now, their are more crative guys that can pull it off for a short time, guys like Billy beane at oakland, but even time and money catches up on them like this year. It's hopeless, and that's why are #1 pitcher would be a #3 elsewhere, cause other franchises can afford to pay their #3 guy 25 mill and that's how much our #1 guy makes. So it comes down to the same thing it always does

MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[redsfan2]

I agree to the point that you have to have a realistic salary base. On the other hand, Steibrenner proved for years that money alone won't buy championships. The Reds took them in 4 straight with nowhere near the salary. Pretty much the same with the A's in '90. Hell .... even I thought they were going to get killed in that one and I always think they can win.

One of the real problems that baseball ( or football ) hasn't addressed is that if you're going to have a max for your salary .... then you have to have a minimum too. Owners at this point can spend as little as possible to field a team that won't even be competitive and pocket the rest. That's WRONG.

You are right about going higher tho ... Get rid of Selig and Fehr and appoint a real commissioner that isn't beholden to the owners and a players union president that isn't an agent in disguise ... and not even a very good one at that.

Again..... if it rolls down hill, its because it started at the top.

[Kirkendall]

It all starts with the MLB itself any way. I'm sure you've heard this rant before, but how can a team worht 50 mill compete with a team that pays 150 mill.

Well, Linder has the chance, but he refuses to put his own energy in marketing, building, and paying this team. Catch-22 if you ask me. I think your point is legitimate, but my former hometown, Minneapolis has a team that's built from the ground up and has done quite successful for itself. My point? It's not about money, it's about the organizational philosophy, which the Reds have severely lacked since Linder took over.

the playing field is so uneven in MLB teams like the Reds only have a small chance in hell to win anyway

The Reds are way under the NFL cap, for meaningless comparison. If the Reds did all they could to build this team, then yea, I'd agree. But again, this team needs to develop an organization philosophy with a clear cut long term outlook -- can anyone tell me what it is now?

[Kirkendall]

Owners at this point can spend as little as possible to field a team that won't even be competitive and pocket the rest. That's WRONG.

The NFL called their version of minimum payroll, the Brown line.

[bengalboomer7]

Your right too, it doesn't help having a big bunch of tightwads running the ship. i see it happening but I absolutely hate the concept of running teams like businesses. But if we treated them like businesses it would force them to be more successfull. If the team sucks and we still buy tickets and they still make a good profit what is the motivation to improve the team, especially if your making money anyway. But, from a business standpoint if the fans quit going to the games because the product was bad then they wwould be forced to improve to make money. SO my only advice is this, don't go to the games and wear a bag over your head, don't watch the game on TV, just don't go. That may be the only weapon a fan has to will his franchise to get better.

[Kirkendall]

If the team sucks and we still buy tickets and they still make a good profit what is the motivation to improve the team, especially if your making money anyway.

That sounds awfully familiar doesn't BB? (mike brown)....

SO my only advice is this, don't go to the games and wear a bag over your head, don't watch the game on TV, just don't go. That may be the only weapon a fan has to will his franchise to get better. mad.gif

I disagree somewhat. Sure that would help a lot, but the voice of public outcry really does go a long way. I mean, can we honestly say Graves would be gone if everyone didn't go ballistic everytime Danny came into the game?

[bengalboomer7]

Who knows with these guys. By the ninth they are all full on lobster and caviarre and half asleep

[redsfan2]

I think a large part of the problem is that these guys DO run their teams like businesses. Unfortunately that means downsizing and cutting costs till you turn a profit.

I'd like it a lot better if more of these guys bought teams because they love the game and then ran it for the pride of being associated with a winning team. Who does that anymore ?????????

Ev'body wan go heaven ... but nobody wahn be dead mahn !

[ratmandu]

Here is my log from Bucknuts.com that tells it exactly the way it is !!!

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Red's bullpen has taken on the same exact performance characteristics of it's fearless leader Tom "Boom-Boom" Hume.

But,I do think that Don Gullett is one of the elite pitching coaches in the majors. He just has a whole staff of 5th position starters and spot starters to work with.

His whole starting staff is always comprised of a couple of underachieving young starters and a whole lot of sore armed,surgery repaired,rehab veteren projects who were throw away castoffs from other major and minor league teams.

Let's face facts !

The Reds minor league farm system has never now or ever been able to develope their own major league pitching talent.

And,yes they "ALWAYS" manage to destroy the arms of all of their biggest and brightest pitching prospects before they ever get to the majors !!!

So,if you can't develope young arms and get them to the major leagues then that only leaves one other available option.

YOU HAVE TO BUY YOUR ARMS at the major league level.

Here in lies the Reds major stumbling block and biggest pitfall.

"MULTI-BILLIONAIRE OWNER" CARL LINDNER (CEO of Chiquita Banana,United Dairy Farmers,Western-Southern Life Insurance Company and Great American Insurance Company) is too "CHEAP" to go out and purchase a real #1,big time free agent starting pitcher like a Roger Clemons and the like.

Until,the Reds get an owner who really cares enough to go out and buy a top shelf pitching staff to compliment their always top of the line position players then they will continue to be mediocre at best.

Carl,a super rich top quality major league owner should be all about the fans,the team and winning instead of being concerned about making a bottom line profit !

Carl,in your case,owning the Reds should be for fun and not for profit !

It should be your passion,your hobby and joy !

And,until you decide to treat it as such you will always be the main detourant and downfall of the Reds franchise.

Carl,either get with the program or sell the team to someone who will !!!

Edited by: AnyThingForaBuck at: 5/13/05 9:11:26 pm

[redsfan2]

Here is my log from Bucknuts.com that tells it exactly the way it is !!!

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Red's bull pen has taken on the same exact performance characteristics of it's fearless leader Tom "Boom-Boom" Hume.

But,I do think that Don Gullett is one of the elite pitching coaches in the majors. He just has a whole staff of 5th position starters and spot starters to work with.

His whole starting staff is always comprised of a couple of underachieving young starters and a whole lot of sore armed,surgery repaired,rehab veteren projects who were throw away castoffs from other major and minor league teams.

Let's face facts !

The Reds minor league farm system has never now or ever been able to develope their own major league pitching talent.[font color=blue size=2]

And,yes they do "ALWAYS" destroy the arms of all of their biggest and brightest pitching prospects before they ever get to the majors !!!

So,if you can't develope young arms and get them to the major leagues then that only leaves one other available option.

[font color=blue size=2]YOU HAVE TO BUY YOUR ARMS at the major league level.

Here in lies the Reds major stumbling block and biggest pitfall.

[font color=maroon face=verdana size=4]"MULTI-BILLIONAIRE OWNER" [font color=purple]CARL LINDNER [font color=navy](CEO of Chiquita Banana,United Dairy Farmers,Western-Southern Life Insurance Company and Great American Insurance Company) is too [font color=blue face=verdana size=4]"CHEAP" to go out and purchase a real #1,big time free agent starting pitcher like a Roger Clemons and the like.

Until,the Reds get an owner who really cares enough to go out and buy a top shelf pitching staff to compliment their always top of the line position players then they will continue to be mediocre at best.

Carl,a super rich top quality major league owner should be all about the fans,the team and winning instead of being concerned about making a bottom line profit !

Carl,in your case,owning the Reds should be for fun and not for profit !

It should be your passion,your hobby and joy !

And,until you decide to treat it as such you will always be the main detourant and downfall of the Reds franchise.

Carl,either get with the program or sell the team to someone who will !!!

Edited by: AnyThingForaBuck at: 5/13/05 9:11:26 pm

5 minute standing ovation !!!!!!!

Absolutely Fantastic 1st post. Welcome home .... cause this is where you've belonged all along.

:player: :player: :player:

[Kirkendall]

That was dramatic.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Until,the Reds get an owner who really cares enough to go out and buy a top shelf pitching staff to compliment their always top of the line position players then they will continue to be mediocre at best.

Carl, a super rich top quality major league owner should be all about the fans,the team and winning instead of being concerned about making a bottom line profit !

Carl,in your case,owning the Reds should be for fun and not for profit !

It should be your passion,your hobby and joy!

Edited by: AnyThingForaBuck at: 5/13/05 9:11:26 pm

Here. Let me shut this off for you...

Wow. That was an amazing first post if I've ever heard one!

Everyone likes to badmouth Marge Schott. Sometimes for good reason. BUT!!!..... ...you have to admit that she cared a great deal! The game of baseball and especially the Reds were her passion! (Well that and possibly cigarettes and a cocktail...)

You'll never get anyone to truthfully say that about Lindner.

I think (I cannot believe I'm actually gonna say this!) that Mike Brown should talk to Carl, and give him the old "I used to suck giant sweaty donkey balls around here, just like you do now" speach. Just tell him "Hey! If I stopped sucking them, you can too brother!"

Hmmm. Maybe not.

[bengalboomer7]

Something I thought was funny. On Page 2 of ESPN they have a poll of what is the biggest waste of money right now(besides Giambi) and one of them was a Cincy Graves jersey

[ShulaSteakhouse]

His whole starting staff is always comprised of a couple of underachieving young starters and a whole lot of sore armed,surgery repaired,rehab veteren projects who were throw away castoffs from other major and minor league teams.

I would hardly call Wilson, Milton and Ortiz "rehab veteran projects." They are who they are, veterans, two of them pretty expensive...not defending how bad they really are ultimately - but they aren't getting better here either. But all 3 have had success in the past.

Harang has done very well. Claussen is always hurt and has under-performed like most Reds starters who come up into Gullett's hands.

A lot of pitchers have arm problems, look at the Cubs, at some point a lot of them break down these days.

I am not doubting the lack of talent Gullet has had so much as why anyone thinks he's such a great coach despite no real success stories other than Schourek and Harnish, who faded fast after a good year or two.

I don't know if he's a great or good or bad coach or not, just know he's done little-to-nothing with what he has had to work with either way.

So I question the "premiere pitching coach" title. Is it because he's a BRM'er? If he weren't I'd venture he'd be run out of town years ago.

[ratmandu]

I would hardly call Wilson, Milton and Ortiz "rehab veteran projects." They are who they are, veterans, two of them pretty expensive...not defending how bad they really are ultimately - but they aren't getting better here either. But all 3 have had success in the past.

Paul Wilson was completely out of baseball for almost 4 years with numerous major arm and shoulder surgeries.

Wilson,was a former number one draft pick out of Florida State by the New York Mets in 1996 and he was acquired by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays from the Mets where he made his major league comeback return on Aug.4,2000 after he missed parts of the 1997 and 98 seasons and all of 1999 with two separate surgeries (right shoulder-Nov, 1996 and right elbow-April 1999).

When the Reds signed him he had a 4 year career record of 20-37 with an ERA of 4.86.

He has finished in the league's top ten in the following categories:

Most losses in 1996 with 12 placing him in 9th place among league pitchers.

Most losses in 2002 with 12 placing him in 8th place among

league pitchers.

Most homeruns allowed in 2002 with 29 placing him in 8th place among league pitchers.

Most hits allowed in 2002 with 219 placing him in 9th place among league pitchers.

Most earned runs allowed in 2002 with 104 placing him in 6th place among league pitchers.

So,I would call Paul Wilson a "MAJOR REHAB PROJECT".

And,that is the same MO for Ramon Ortiz (numerous elbow problems),Eric Milton (major knee surgery) and Brandon Claussen (Tommy John surgery).

Only Milton who has been a career #4 starter,has had any measure of consistant,moderate success in the major leagues though Claussen is showing some brief flashes of success.

As for Aaron Harang,I do believe that if my memory serves me right he was going to be demoted to Triple A Sacramento for the last time as Oakland was out of options and wanted to dump him,I mean trade him.

The Athletics organization had completely given up on him and no longer considered him as an asset to their organization and as a liability they wanted to unload him for anything they could get.

So, the A's traded him to the Reds so that they could at least get something for him instead of essentially cutting him lose with no return on their investment.

So,even though he has done a good job as a Red's starter he did not by any means come to Cincinnati as an accomplished major league starting pitcher.

I don't know if he's a great or good or bad coach or not, just know he's done little-to-nothing with what he has had to work with either way.

And,look at all of the other great,quality arms that Don Gullet has had to work with that went on to do far less for other teams pitching coaches;

Jimmy Haynes - (and his blazing 82 MPH fastball !)

Cory Lidle

Ryan Dempster

Elizardo Ramirez

Pete Harnish

Pete Schourek

Kent Mercker,

Mark Portugal

Rick Reed

Ben Weber

David Weathers

and...............................man I could go on for ever !