Kirkendall Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Frankly, so what? The Bengals can attempt to belittle the Jordan contract, but they can't make it go away anymore than they can ignore the Portis contract. No, but Rudi can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 ...and the number of teams willing to meet that price appears to be...zero. Which only goes to strengthen my argument that this is about more than just the specific players and specific teams (or the cap, as willy suggests). I'll argue that the current reluctance of teams to meet that asking price implies that the trade demand you claim to be absurdly small is actually far higher than you're making it out to be when added to the final salary costs. Sheesh, trading for the very best players at ANY position isn't the cheap way to go. It's got to be the most expensive option available.....explaining very well why the needle currently points at zero. But ignoring that for a minute, the cost of that particular option prompts those teams who can't meet the price to willingly overpay for less valuable options. And obviously the Raiders just did that. We're next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 but the Jordan deal clearly points to a rising cost for promising young running backs. No it doesn't. Jordan is (or will be) 27 after this year and what has he proven to make that much money during his legacy of four complete seasons? 0 starts, 0 games of 18 rushes or more, 2 games over 4 full seaons with 100 yards, etc...Explain how the above gives you:a five-year, $27.5 million contract with free-agent running back LaMont Jordan on Friday to boost their ineffective ground game.Jordan's agent, Alvin Keels, said Jordan will receive $11 million in guaranteed money and $17.8 million over the first three years of the contract, including $15.7 million in bonuses.The Bengals would be 10000000000% correct in belittling the Jordan contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Frankly, so what? The Bengals can attempt to belittle the Jordan contract, but they can't make it go away anymore than they can ignore the Portis contract.No, but Rudi can. No argument. However, I'm at a complete loss to understand why Rudi Johnson would ignore his own self interests and make things easier for the Bengals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Frankly, so what? The Bengals can attempt to belittle the Jordan contract, but they can't make it go away anymore than they can ignore the Portis contract.No, but Rudi can. No argument. However, I'm at a complete loss to understand why Rudi Johnson would ignore his own self interests and make things easier for the Bengals. Call it the hopeful moment of this year. I guess I'm more hopeful Rudi signs a long-term deal to keep the chemistry alive -- which I'm sure is 99% of everyone here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 The Bengals would be 10000000000% correct in belittling the Jordan contract. Fair enough. Let's assume they've done EXACTLY that. Do they have a long-term contract agreement yet? Look, if the Bengals are done bidding against themselves...fine. I'm very okay with the idea of paying Rudi the tag price. Always have been. In fact, I'd consider doing it exactly this way again next season....an idea that makes most of you guys want to choke. What I don't understand is how ignoring or openly mocking the Lamont Jordan contract gets this team closer to a long-term agreement. The Bengals have to acknowledge that contract and they have to move past it or they're going to be stuck with a short-term deal. Maybe they're okay with that. Maybe not. But whatever the answer, ignoring the Jordan contract in the hope that Rudi will take less than he's worth seems like a poorly thought out plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Call it the hopeful moment of this year. Fair enough, let the permanent record show that our hopes are exactly the same even if our individual levels of pie-eyed optimism differ tremendously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Which is another way of saying what I've already said: a ceiling has been reached.Our positions aren't the same. You're arguing that things that are true of an individual like Edge James are also true of the very position he plays. I disagree strongly. You can disagree strongly all you want, but one plural in your response undercuts your argument: players. If I were talking about just James or just Rudi, that would be one thing. But we're looking at James and Alexander and Rudi and Dillon as well: all guys who are scheduled to make $6 million+ this year, all guys who trampled well over 1,000 yards of FieldTurf last year, the elite of the elite at their position...and they can't get a deal.It ain't just Edge. Or Rudi. Or Alexander. A ceiling has been hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 I'll argue that the current reluctance of teams to meet that asking price implies that the trade demand you claim to be absurdly small is actually far higher than you're making it out to be when added to the final salary costs. And I'll argue that that is, simply put, bulls**t. A second round pick for a proven 1,200 -1,400 back? If you're right and no ceiling has been reached, there ought to be teams climbing all over that. Pats didn't hesitate to cough that up for Corey last year...of course, that didn't require paying $6 million+, at least not in year one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 If I were talking about just James or just Rudi, that would be one thing. But we're looking at James and Alexander and Rudi and Dillon as well: all guys who are scheduled to make $6 million+ this year, all guys who trampled well over 1,000 yards of FieldTurf last year, the elite of the elite at their position...and they can't get a deal. They'll get deals. Before this thing plays out they'll either get a stupid amount of new money in long-term deals OR they'll play for a tick over 6 million this season....before the whole thing starts up again next offseason. But let's face facts here, the teams in question used the franchise tag to prevent their players from earning their true market value precisely because that price keeps climbing higher than they can afford. And if we're really on the edge of a new trend...where are the RB bargains? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 And I'll argue that that is, simply put, bulls**t. A second round pick for a proven 1,200 -1,400 back? If you're right and no ceiling has been reached, there ought to be teams climbing all over that. Why? The cost of the 2nd round pick is already steep enough to give most teams reason to pause, and it's just the start. Next you'd have to meet the long-term salary demands of a proven NFL RB. And knowing what the financial cost of an unproven back like Lamont Jordan turned out to be...well...what do you think a back like Alexander would demand from his new team? Probably no less than he demanded from his old team, right? And lets not forget what these players could get in an unrestricted trip through free agency? In each example the salary demands would be much more than your ceiling would allow, ehhh? And you know they'd get new deals if unrestricted by the tag, right? So maybe there's no ceiling after all? Maybe there's just a few glaring examples of RB's encountering artificial marketplace restrictions that reduce their level of compensation....temporarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalboomer7 Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 With all the talk about market and valueYOu guys are starting to sound like two stockbrokers arguing before the bell rings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 With all the talk about market and valueYOu guys are starting to sound like two stockbrokers arguing before the bell rings The Bore of the Off-season! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 With all the talk about market and valueYOu guys are starting to sound like two stockbrokers arguing before the bell rings Hair and I have been doing this for a long, long time . We're just killing time until the season rolls back around, sorry if drones on. I'll let things go for now. Rudi's been signed to a very reasonable deal -- below Jordan's, even, if reports are true -- so now we wait and see what happens to Edge, Alexander and Corey. Do any of them get a potful of Portis dollars? Do they play under the tender? Or do the combined effects of the Jordan and Rudi deals actually serve to establish new, lower benchmarks for top RBs? Stay tuned for the next episode of "As the Offseason Turns." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalboomer7 Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Oh, don't get me wrong, you don't have to stop, it's actually pretty enjoyable to see, I just wish I could read and all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 With all the talk about market and valueYOu guys are starting to sound like two stockbrokers arguing before the bell rings The Bore of the Off-season! Really? I assumed that the bore of the offseason was all the time spent engaging in blatantly STUPID talk about getting a RB cheaply, not needing a stud running back at all, Marvin not being willing to commit to a supposedly limited running back like Rudi, Rudi not being worth 3 million per...let alone 5 or 6, Chris Perry being drafted as Rudi's replacement, and finally.... things playing out in a way that doomed Rudi to playing for the Bengals only one more year. In hindsight, what a bunch of wasted keystrokes....and all of it dead wrong. Sure, plenty of it fostered some really EXCITING talk, but in the endgame...I'm sure glad those weren't my opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 With all the talk about market and valueYOu guys are starting to sound like two stockbrokers arguing before the bell rings The Bore of the Off-season! Really? I assumed that the bore of the offseason was all the time spent engaging in blatantly STUPID talk about getting a RB cheaply, not needing a stud running back at all, Marvin not being willing to commit to a supposedly limited running back like Rudi, Rudi not being worth 3 million per...let alone 5 or 6, Chris Perry being drafted as Rudi's replacement, and finally.... things playing out in a way that doomed Rudi to playing for the Bengals only one more year. In hindsight, what a bunch of wasted keystrokes....and all of it dead wrong. Sure, plenty of it fostered some really EXCITING talk, but in the endgame...I'm sure glad those weren't my opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 With all the talk about market and valueYOu guys are starting to sound like two stockbrokers arguing before the bell rings Yeah, who would have guessed that something as debatable as value might come up during free agency or trade talk? Still, it's done...and I guess now we move on to debate and cast votes for our choice as the best Bengal H-back ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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