Rudi seeing green

[bengalboomer7]

You think Cincinnati owner Mike Brown didn't cringe when he saw those gaudy LaMont Jordan contract figures? Brown's team will try to negotiate a long-term contract with Rudi Johnson, even though the Bengals' tailback early this week signed the one-year qualifying offer, of $6.323 million, for a "franchise" player at the position. The feeling has been that the Cincinnati choking point on a long-term deal for Johnson is about five years, $25 million, with a signing bonus in the $8 million range. Anything beyond that and the Bengals would probably just let their star play under the one-year deal and begin grooming 2004 first-rounder Chris Perry to become the starter in 2006. But the Jordan contract provides Johnson's agents, no day at the beach under the best of circumstances, plenty of ammunition for seeking a monster deal. And they would be justified, working off the Jordan numbers, in doing so. In his breakout '04 season, Johnson posted more carries (361), yards (1,454) and touchdowns (12) than Jordan has in four seasons. Yep, that noise you just heard was Mike Brown reaching into the medicine cabinet for the Pepto-Bismol.

This is a blip in Pasqueerelli's article on ESPN.

[Ickeyshuffler]

The thing about Jordan is, he has the potential to be far better and more dynamic than Rudi Johnson. If you look at his stats, it appears the only reason he didn't put up great numbers is because he wasn't on the field that much (behind the NFL's rushing titleholder and a surefire hall of famer in Curtis Martin). His average is quite a bit better than Rudi's, he has caught more balls for way more yards in his little bit of time than Rudi has in nearly 2 full years of starting, and he has broken nearly as many long runs out of his far fewer carries than Rudi. Rudi is a solid back, but nothing more. He simply got a ton of carries last year, and did what any solid back would have done behind Willie, Levi, Steinback, Braham, and Bobby Williams (the weakest part of the line, but still a great run blocker despite his shortcomings against pass rush) given his time on the field.

So, in short, Lamont Jordan's contract is a bit too big considering that he really hasn't put in his time, but had Martin not been in NY I guarantee he'd have much better stats than Rudi at this point. Rudi is not a 5+ million per year back. I wouldn't break the 3 million barrier on him, and with Chris Perry waiting in the wings with 1st round money I'm all for trading him and signing A-train at about 1/3 to 1/2 the price of Rudi.

[DontPushMe]

The thing about Jordan is, he has the potential to be far better and more dynamic than Rudi Johnson. If you look at his stats, it appears the only reason he didn't put up great numbers is because he wasn't on the field that much (behind the NFL's rushing titleholder and a surefire hall of famer in Curtis Martin). His average is quite a bit better than Rudi's, he has caught more balls for way more yards in his little bit of time than Rudi has in nearly 2 full years of starting, and he has broken nearly as many long runs out of his far fewer carries than Rudi. Rudi is a solid back, but nothing more. He simply got a ton of carries last year, and did what any solid back would have done behind Willie, Levi, Steinback, Braham, and Bobby Williams (the weakest part of the line, but still a great run blocker despite his shortcomings against pass rush) given his time on the field.

So, in short, Lamont Jordan's contract is a bit too big considering that he really hasn't put in his time, but had Martin not been in NY I guarantee he'd have much better stats than Rudi at this point. Rudi is not a 5+ million per year back. I wouldn't break the 3 million barrier on him, and with Chris Perry waiting in the wings with 1st round money I'm all for trading him and signing A-train at about 1/3 to 1/2 the price of Rudi.

Thank you for signing up here man. I hope you become an active poster. We need more people here who actually understand that rudi is nothing more then solid or average, and only got all those yards because of his record number of carries.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Well the Jets o-line was and is considered one of the best in the NFL.

Put Rudi behind that line and who knows what he'd do.

I don't remember the Jets playing at least 9 top ten defenses last year either including the Steelers and Ravens. I would rather face the Patriots banged up defense and Miami's sorry team twice a year than either the Ravens and Steelers 4 times a season any time.

Funny you don't mention Rudi's '03 season either or the fact this was his first full season as a full-time starter. He can catch too as I just watched him complete a 22 yard pass play in the KC '03 game. It could be they just don't throw to the Rb's in this offense no matter who's back there unless they split Perry out like they did when he played last year and designed plays with him in mind.

I can't help but appreciate Rudi but it's the Bengals' fault they didn't sign him to a long term deal after they lost Dillon - just stupid.

This said I heard Rudi is a cheap bastage and now he's apparently not even remotely smart on top of that....but he's not doing anything illegal and half of pro and college football players are unlikeable people any ways. So as long as he keeps producing on the field I'm all for keeping him at all costs....his style is perfect for this line and that is why they are looking at Anthony Thomas right now, but he'll go down as 10x the back Thomas will end up being most likely.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

and only got all those yards because of his record number of carries.

Funny how he breaks the season franchise record and the selective memories of Bengals fans seem to remove the memories of '03.

RUDI JOHNSON

'03 - 4.5 avg. 9 TD's 215 carries and 957 yards in five starts and 13 games. 54 yard longest carry. Zero fumbles. 3 150+ yard games.

'04 - 4.0 avg. 12 TD's 361 carries 1454 yards, 52 yard longest carry. Four fumbles.

I would argue that '04 was a down year for him.

COREY DILLON

2001 - 340 carries - 1315 yards, 3.9 yard avg. 10 TD's, 5 fumbles

2002 - 314 carries - 1311 yards, 4.2 yard avg. 7 TD's, 5 fumbles

=======================================

So based on your logic Dillon is an average back also, because his numbers are WORSE over-all his last 3 years here than Rudi's. But we saw how Dillon's production immediately jumped to career highs when he went to a great team.

Rudi had all of 20 more carries this past year than Dillon's highest total, and as a result had over a 100 more yards rushing than Dillon did that year.

So to you peole who say his record yards this year were due to his "record number of carries" then you better be including Dillon as nothing more than a "solid, average player" too.

20 carries last I checked does not make the difference between a 1,000 yard season and a 1454 yard season.

And didn't I mention the 9 top 10 defenses they played last year?

Rudi's a legitimate workhorse feature back and a top 5-7 back or better, he deserves that kind of money. This is not baseball where players have to do it for 4-5 years before they get big money, this is football and 1-3 years is enough to get huge dough, careers are shorter, and the cap forces people to make longer deals.

Unless they bring Sean Alexander in here I swear the running game will go way downhill and you will see that Rudi will keep this team in every game and give Palmer the honest defenses out of pure respect to get the ball downfield. Stack the line like they did in Palmer's rookie year and he will kill you with these WR's.

Sorry but defenses are NOT going to respect Perry and Thomas or any other mediocre back and the passing game will suffer.

I don't know what more I can say about keeping Rudi here for the next 3-5 years, it needs to be done and should've been done as soon as Dillon was traded.

This is why the Bengals have sucked for so long and the fans just buy into it.

[Ickeyshuffler]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Rudi is a lousy running back - in fact, he is wonderful at what he does, which is predictably run up the gut on first and second down and then become a non factor on the inevitable slew of third-and-five or sixes that result from 2-3 yards on 1st and 2-3 yards on 2nd. His average is obviously higher, but for the most part the preceding scenario played out again, and again, and again. Watching Bengals games last year led me to believe that he simply wasn't the kind of player who really made enough of a difference to carry his team when they needed it, and THAT IS WHAT 6.3 MILLION DOLLAR PLAYERS DO. He did his job, yes, but when a team faces LT or SA they are forced to plan around and for him - backs like that can take it outside, up the gut, catch out of the backfield or on the pitch, and give defenses fits due to the constant need to account for them. And even as far as power runners go, look at Jamal Lewis for an example of a 6.3 million dollar man. Rudi simply hammers away at the middle and occasionally breaks one to up his average and game totals. He is not a 6-7 yards on first or second down type of Jamal Lewis back who opens things up for the entire offense and can make an opposing defense crazy (i.e. Jamal vs. Bengals).

So...obviously a running backs performance has more to do with what's in front of him than anything else, but mainly I'm sayin that Rudi can't add a whole lot to that formula. Dillon had similar numbers on HORRIBLE teams, where not only was his line often shoddy but most importantly the passing attack was crap so teams could stack the box against him time and time again. The fact that he managed to put up the numbers he did in such a situation is a testament to his abilities, not to his similarity to Rudi. Rudi is just fine, I LIKE HIM. But he is not and will never be a gamebreaker and with that in mind 6.3 million is ludicrous with so many other glaring needs on D and money already invested in Perry (who will be good if he does get healthy)

[DontPushMe]

So based on your logic Dillon is an average back also, because his numbers are WORSE over-all his last 3 years here than Rudi's.  But we saw how Dillon's production immediately jumped to career highs when he went to a great team.

please don't compare rudi to dillon. You will just make yourself look stupid.

how about this one:

345 carries 1635 yards 13 tds (1 receiving), 4.7 ypc, super bowl champion

^^^ the truth

Corey Dillon = football god

[CTBengalsFan]

So based on your logic Dillon is an average back also, because his numbers are WORSE over-all his last 3 years here than Rudi's.  But we saw how Dillon's production immediately jumped to career highs when he went to a great team.

please don't compare rudi to dillon. You will just make yourself look stupid.

how about this one:

345 carries 1635 yards 12 tds 13 tds, 4.7 ypc, super bowl champion

^^^ the truth

Corey Dillon = football god

you could put 15 backs on the patriots and they'd all get those stats.

don't be a fool.

[walshfan]

As far as Johnson is concerned...He's a durable back..He hits the hole he's supposed to with authority..If the hole closes quickly he hits it anyway and gets stopped.. he has no moves to the outside due to his lack of agility... His perifeal vision seems to be lacking also... a plowhorse wanting thoroubred money..

As for any back getting 1500 yards on the Pats... they didn't before Dillon.

A-Train ran on a team that had a mediocre line.. he's from the same mold as Rudi only cheaper....

[bengalboomer7]

I agree with what the Bengals are doing. They've put up a good solid number that they think is more than fair and they are not going to budge from it(Watch them up the ante now) They are not willing to purge their cap for years for Rudi. But I think they could get some kind of one sided contract like they did with TJ where he gets most of his money in one year. We can't do it for next year though, because of TJ's big cap, not to mention CJ and Palmer. 5 for 25 with an eight mill bonus is a great deal for Rudi. I commend the Bengals for not buckling cause of the stupidity of the Raiders for overpaying. I believer that was also in the article, how the rest of the NFL is shaking their heads cause of AL spending so much money on Jordan

[bengalboomer7]

I agree he's not worth that much, but he's a franchise breaking running back that is looking for "fair market value"(please allow Joisey to explain ) It may be too much, but with his stats he does have a point in asking for it

[HairOnFire]

But the Jordan contract provides Johnson's agents...plenty of ammunition for seeking a monster deal. And they would be justified, working off the Jordan numbers, in doing so.

Key Word: Justified

I can't help but laugh each time I hear Rudi Johnson described as a 3 million dollar RB. You'd think by now that some of you guys might get a grip on Rudi's true market value...now that we've got some hard numbers to kick around.

Guess not.

[jjakq27]

So based on your logic Dillon is an average back also, because his numbers are WORSE over-all his last 3 years here than Rudi's.  But we saw how Dillon's production immediately jumped to career highs when he went to a great team.

please don't compare rudi to dillon. You will just make yourself look stupid.

how about this one:

345 carries 1635 yards 13 tds (1 receiving), 4.7 ypc, super bowl champion

^^^ the truth

Corey Dillon = football god

There is only one God and it ain't Corey.....

[HoosierCat]

But the Jordan contract provides Johnson's agents...plenty of ammunition for seeking a monster deal. And they would be justified, working off the Jordan numbers, in doing so.

Key Word: Justified

I can't help but laugh each time I hear Rudi Johnson described as a 3 million dollar RB. You'd think by now that some of you guys might get a grip on Rudi's true market value...now that we've got some hard numbers to kick around.

Guess not.

I don't think the Jordan deal really impacts Rudi's market value much; had he not been tagged and gone out a UFA he would have easily drawn a $5 million/year average deal, probably something more like $6 million/year, and maybe even more.

Persoanlly, I've always thought -- and have said here before -- that Rudi isn't a top 5 or top 10 RB, but is quite legitimately in the top 15. In other words, better than the average NFL starting RB.. Based on the top 5 guys averaging $6.3 million and the top 10 averaging $5.2, I'd have to guess that "top 15" money would be in the $4.8-5 million range. Which if runor is to be believed is where the bengals' "final offer" is.

His actual value on the open market, tho, would be higher, simply because of the scarcity of top RBs available (thus my thinking that he could draw more than $6 million/year).

Should the bengals pay it? I dunno. Do you spend top 5 RB dollars, and lock up a big chunk of cap space, on Rudi, with a No. 1 draft pick on the bench and a defense that couldn't stop the run with help from the USMC? Even if there's no miracle FA available right now, that cap hit of Rudi's will only grow in future years, cramping your ability to build the defense long-term. On the other hand, Chris Perry may turn out to be the second coming of Ki-Jana, and if so letting Rudi go would be a huge mistake, and would set the team's quest for the playoffs/Super Bowl back at least a year.

The smartest course of action is for the Bengals to resign themselves to eating the $6.3 million franchise tender for 2005. If Perry comes on, great. You let Rudi walk the next year. If he doesn't, you can bit the bullet and give Rudi a mountain of money.

[walshfan]

it may come to that.... Id rather get him sign traded and use the extra money on signing the O-linemen that will be up for free agency soon....without them none of the backs will look good...

[Ickeyshuffler]

I can't help but laugh each time I hear Rudi Johnson described as a 3 million dollar RB. You'd think by now that some of you guys might get a grip on Rudi's true market value...now that we've got some hard numbers to kick around.

Guess not.

I fully understand that 3 million is not Rudi's "true market value." On the Dolphins or Cardinals he's a huge improvement, and maybe some team like that pays him 5 or 6. It is, however, about as much as the Bengals should be spending on him considering defensive needs, the O-line's future as someone else mentioned, etc. The Bengals have a first rounder at RB and whether proven or not he still gets paid 1rst round money, and a darn good O-line, so to pay 5-6 million for a pure power back, albeit one of the better ones in the league ("above average" sounds about right) ignores the Bengals' particular situation and thus becomes quite a reach in my opinion. His market value is much different from his value to the Bengals, and I agree wholeheartedly with walshfan -- he hits the hole real nice but if it isn't there or it closes he's just gonna hit it anyway and get dropped for -1. There will be no quick cuts to the outside, improvisation, etc. This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say he makes the offense predictable. Defenses key on the middle and they're usually right. If our O-line was worthless/average he'd be an 800-1000 yard back at most.

[bengalsfan4life]

let me say this of rudi johnson three words KIck him out of bengals town.

Let chris perry have his chance. so let's trade rudi to maybe somebody like seattle for shawn alexander have shawn for insurance purposes in cases like perry either gets hurt or is not putting up good numbers on the ground.

Let's go bengals will be in back in detriot for their second superbowl apperance in detriot.

[bengalboomer7]

SHAUN ALEXANDER FOR INSURANCE PURPOSES I keep hearing this, but would someone please explain to me how you are going to convivce the seahawks to make that trade straight up, cause it ain't gonna happen. SA for Rudi

[HairOnFire]

On the other hand, Chris Perry may turn out to be the second coming of Ki-Jana, and if so letting Rudi go would be a huge mistake, and would set the team's quest for the playoffs/Super Bowl back at least a year.

THERE it is. Super Bowl.

Joisey, how long have you and I been posting?

And when was the last time either of us spoke about a Super Bowl run?

Never, right?

If the Bengals can produce a .500 start...possible even with a repeat of last seasons defensive performance...it would almost certainly become a playoff team...and if this team can get into the playoffs it's offense...with a proven running game...gives it a punchers chance to reach the Super Bowl.

Right now.

[not-another]

SHAUN ALEXANDER FOR INSURANCE PURPOSES I keep hearing this, but would someone please explain to me how you are going to convivce the seahawks to make that trade straight up, cause it ain't gonna happen. SA for Rudi

Ru-dey will be a Shaun, or a Bettis, or even a Dillon next year! He is just getting half the amount as some of these runningbacks. SIGN HIM!

Next Years Running Backs

Ru-dey>Dillon

Aint that right dontpushme?

[HairOnFire]

...so to pay 5-6 million for a pure power back, albeit one of the better ones in the league ("above average" sounds about right) ignores the Bengals' particular situation and thus becomes quite a reach in my opinion.

Here's what you're advocating. For the difference in what you think Rudi is worth to this team and what you know he's worth on the open market...a range of 2-3 million bucks...mad money that will be targeted for use on currently unknown defensive help....you're risking a potential problem on offense so serious that it would likely ruin a season of real promise.

[Whur CHad At?]

Shaun Alexander wants to play here because it is close to home, so he would def. try his hardest to get a deal worked out.

[HoosierCat]

If the Bengals can produce a .500 start...possible even with a repeat of last seasons defensive performance...it would almost certainly become a playoff team...and if this team can get into the playoffs it's offense...with a proven running game...gives it a punchers chance to reach the Super Bowl.

I agree. That said, however, the Colts have provided ample evidence in recent years that teams do not win by offense alone. Or to use your metaphor, the Bengals have to be able to take a punch as well as deliver one. I'm not anxious to dump Rudi (even tho I personally think Perry would be OK) but if the right deal comes along that puts a defensive playmaker in my hands, or more solid draft picks to get one...I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger, either.

[Kirkendall]

Shaun Alexander wants to play here because it is close to home, so he would def. try his hardest to get a deal worked out.

Didn't Alexander get franchised?

[Whur CHad At?]

yea, but if a deal was to go down, We would have to sign Shaun to long term, and the Seahawks would have to sing Rudi to long term. Similar to the Portis-Bailey trade last year