More reason to think Rudi will be gone

[BENGALTHEM]

They need to let Rudi go, and just roll with Perry, Wilson, and Watson. Those three backs combined can easily get 1300 yards.

Not signing Rudi will allow us to get a SS, or a DT, and we can sign Housh at the same time.

DEFFENSE IS NUMBER ONE PRIORITY THIS OFFSEASON.

If I could pick either a top ten run defense or Rudi, Ill take the run defense everytime.

We have a good O-line when healthy, so any back can look good behind that O-line. Bobbie Williams got better as the year progressed.

Steinbach, Jones, Anderson, and Braham are all dogs!

[bengalboomer7]

They will not go into training camp next year with just Perry, Watson ans Wilson. I think ists way more realistic to sign Rudi then TJ. I would prefer to sign both, but we are deeper at WR than RB and I personally think that TJ is gonna get more interest in FA than Rudi. Plus, with Warrick's contract we can't afford to pay two recievers #2 money.

[HoosierCat]

Sheesh, call the Bengals rumored contract proposal to Rudi modest if you want but it's clearly large enough...and long enough...to identify the Bengals long term plans and desires for the starting RB position. And again, those plans don't involve Perry being named the starter unless the Bengals very healthy contract offer is refused.

I agree with you 100% that a $5 million a year offer for Rudi is more than fair. But whether it demonstrates the Bengals plans or desire to have him long-term...I dunno. I don't buy it. If he really-o, truly-o is their guy, why the p***yfooting around? If he's that key, what's another mil? In for a penny, in for a pound, right? The Bengals have the space. Yeah, a $6 million or $7 million/year deal for Rudi takes them out of FA, but so does a $5 million/year deal (unless their financing is uncharacteristically creative). If he's their long-term guy, drop the bomob on him and move on.

Now, if you want to view this as, Rudi No. 1 and Perry = backup plan, be my guest. I see it as, we're perfectly willing to make Perry No. 1, here's what we'll pay, if you don't want it, bye.

[DontPushMe]

To be honest, i wouldnt be surprised if rudi was allowed to walk, only to come crawling back to us after only getting offers of 1M/yr and less.

I'm guessing that your sole interest in making the remarks you have is to get people to respond to you. To put it bluntly, you seem like little more than a wheel in search of some much needed grease.

All things considered, Huddles seems like the best place for guys like you.

no, i said how i felt, and backed it up with facts, your post failed to do that

[bengalboomer7]

You call those facts. It just looks like your voicing your opinion thats all, I don't see facts there. However, 5 mill is about as high as I would want to go, maybe too high.

Think about Joisey's idea for a minute. Put out some gawdy number for the press, but backload the contract and put so many incentives he'll need bionic legs to reach them. Then, after three years you make him restructure.

Kind of like the Shaun Rogers deal. When they first reported it, the deal was huge, but after some people looked at it and saw the crazy incentives we realized that he'll only see about half of that money. Do the same with Rudi. Give him the stability he wants and sign him to a 6 year 45 million dollar deal. Put some tough incentives in there, like rushing for 1600 every year and having 1900 all purpsoe yards. Then put a couple of crazy ones in there like he has to play in 80% of special team plays. By the time he has to restructure, he'll only see about 20 mill of that. Good plan

[Kirkendall]

Now, if you want to view this as, Rudi No. 1 and Perry = backup plan, be my guest. I see it as, we're perfectly willing to make Perry No. 1, here's what we'll pay, if you don't want it, bye.

Agreed.

With Palmer as our QB, which teams are taking big notice of, a Chris Perry (who we haven't seen yet play at full strength, so any thought regarding the future of the BEngals w/ C.Perry is purely speculative like last year between Corey and Rudi) this team will be fine w/o Rudi provided Carson and the passing game continue the trend they started before Palmer got hurt against NE.

[bengalboomer7]

Keep in mind Kirk, that since teams will be paying more attention to Carson, that will also make it easier on Rudi since everyone stacked the line to make us throw it. He could easily have the same yards next year with way less carries and a better average.

[HairOnFire]

Think about Joisey's idea for a minute. Put out some gawdy number for the press, but backload the contract and put so many incentives he'll need bionic legs to reach them. Then, after three years you make him restructure.

Do that and you sell newspapers by the truckload and increase the number of internet message board posts that scream about how greedy Rudi Johnson appears to be the moment he wisely turned the deal down.

Seriously, how does offering a contract proposal that features nearly impossible to earn dollars improve the Bengals chances of signing Rudi today? If you backload most of the dollars to a final year that Rudi isn't likely to see...I'm pretty sure his agent will tip his client off about how many realistic dollars and contract years he's looking at.

[bengalboomer7]

That kind of stuff is actually pretty common in today's NFL, so why wouldn't he go for it

[HairOnFire]

I agree with you 100% that a $5 million a year offer for Rudi is more than fair. But whether it demonstrates the Bengals plans or desire to have him long-term...I dunno. I don't buy it. If he really-o, truly-o is their guy, why the p***yfooting around?

The rumored signing bonus was 9 million bucks. That's hardly puzzy type footin'. In fact, that's enough guaranteed money to ensure that Rudi remains a Bengal for many years. So do you really think they make that kind of offer if they didn't intend for him to be their long term starter? I don't.

There's plenty of reasons to explain why there is no agreement yet. Rudi might not like the contract structure. He may think he's worth more AND can get more elsewhere....or here. He may not take seriously the Bengals threat to tag him. Plus, there's no reason for the Bengals to bid against themselves by improving their offer. Why blow Rudi out of the water when he hasn't had a chance to launch his boat? There's no incentive for Rudi that a deal be completed today.

That said, if the rumor is accurate...it's a serious offer that implies Rudi's current backup is just that.

[HairOnFire]

That kind of stuff is actually pretty common in today's NFL, so why wouldn't he go for it

The man wants to be paid at a level that equates to his production...not to merely have his ego stroked. C'mon, it's his 2nd and most important contract and he thinks he deserves to cash in based upon the things he's proven capable of doing. I agree. If you'd rather roll the dice on a cheaper option whose best asset is unproven potential then so be it, but I wouldn't expect Rudi to roll over at the mere mention of the idea. He'll get his money here or somewhere else.

I'd prefer it was here.

You guys are proposing that Rudi would jump at a contract offer that includes impossible-to-reach incentive triggers, shadow money, and contract years he'll never see. Well sorry, the best I can do is agree the Bengals would be smart to offer those things. But why Rudi should agree to them is something altogether different. Because I think he'll want a realistic deal that gives him the long term security that his first contract didn't. He'll want real dollars.

[bengalboomer7]

you act like 20 mill is peanuts, ans like I said, this is part of NFL business, and YES I think it will happen, YOU are forgetting about the signing bonus. All he will care about is the gauranteed money like the signing bonus. Like I said, this happens all the time in the NFL, Regardless of how much, I can gaurantee you Rudi's contract will have so much gauranteed money and so much in incentives and it is common to make contract incentives somewhat lofty!

[bengalboomer7]

Sorry, I didn't read all of your last post, if you read it, you answered your own question

Almost all contracts work this way

[turningpoint]

Keep in mind Kirk, that since teams will be paying more attention to Carson, that will also make it easier on Rudi since everyone stacked the line to make us throw it. He could easily have the same yards next year with way less carries and a better average.

Why can't Perry do that?

[bengalboomer7]

read his post first

[turningpoint]

read his post first

I did it doesn't make a difference, the fact is. Our oline can produce 1300yd backs NP.

With more attention being paid to Carson Chad, (and if my prayers arenswered ) Jerry Porter/Mike Williams) and Warrick. Perry should be able to run vs 7 in the Box.

Look the guy was a work horse for 4years and U of M. He tore up OSU's #1 run D in 2003. He got a freak injury, look for him to comeback and shine.

The guys is damn good at catching the ball he was beating CB's in one on one Coverage, the guys gonna be a playmaker.

Not to mention everyone has loved Marvin Lewis' 2004 NFl draft, looks lke everyplayer is gonna pan out to be good, what are the chances we'd mess up our 1st round pick..VERY SLIM?

He's a younger strong faster Micheal Westbrook.

All we need to do it get a short yardage back.

Our offense is set and built to pass.

[bengalboomer7]

The problem is, because he didn't get on the field there are still a lot of questions. That's probably why the bengals didn't sign Rudi longterm last year and now that Perry is still a question mark, that's why their trying to sign him this year. If perry saw some action in the NFL (we all know from past drafts that what you do in college means nothing) then I would agree. But I don't think Marvin is willing to bank his running game on a unknown, and neither am I at this point

[bengalboomer7]

Actually, the chances of any team "missing" on a pick is wuite common. Even though Marvin wasn't around, just look at some of our past drafts

[turningpoint]

true,but what ML pick has failed so far?

the guy single handly brought Ray Lewis to the ravens....He demanded Ozzi Newsome draft him.

[HairOnFire]

Why can't Perry do that?

Take your pick.

A - Severly wrinkled toes and damaged skin caused by spending far too much time in the whirlpool tub.

B - Multiple hamstring injuries caused by tired leg muscles protesting year long chase of high fan expectations.

C - Severe sports hernia caused by being unable to carry the weight of his vast unrealized potential.

D - Tripped over Rudi's huge stat sheet....resulting in bruised ego and severely strained manhood.

E - Given Ki-Jana Carters old playbook. It's haunted. As a result Perry now suffers from bad mojo.

F - Animal activist Mike Brown unwilling to kill chickens needed to remove curse mentioned in reason E.

G - Rudi eventually resigned, dooming Perry to true backup status....thereby negating my booze bet with Joisey. It's okay. I've come to grips with the idea that I'm never getting my scotch.

H - This reason intentially left blank. ( No it isn't.)

I - The Bengals realize their error and trade a future 2nd round pick for Corey Dillon. Upon learning the news Dillon attempts to kill himself by repeatedly bouncing a cell phone off of his thick cranium....eventually rupturing a cornrow that sends a wild hair into Dillons brain. Happily, this kills Dillon immediately. Sadly, due to repeated leg injuries Perry is unable to beat out Dillon's corpse for the starting job.

J - Despite impressive speed and mobility Perry is unable to manuver around Rudi's new contract.

Just for the record, I picked reason G.

[HoosierCat]

You guys are proposing that Rudi would jump at a contract offer that includes impossible-to-reach incentive triggers, shadow money, and contract years he'll never see. Well sorry, the best I can do is agree the Bengals would be smart to offer those things. But why Rudi should agree to them is something altogether different. Because I think he'll want a realistic deal that gives him the long term security that his first contract didn't. He'll want real dollars.

The same real dollars are still there in either deal. My point is just that, if the Bengals really do see Rudi as The Answer, they could drop a deal like that on him tomorrow, and he would be a fool not to accept. Yes, after the first 2-3 years the numbers are all imaginary -- but that essentially guarantees the player a renegotiation (and more guaranteed money) in just a few years.

I just have visions of the same thing happening with Rudi that happened with Sapp last year. If you break down the deal the Raiders game Warren, he only makes about a million more over the first two years than he would have in Cincy. The rest of the contract -- the part that makes it look like they blew the Bengals away -- is all smoke.

Of course, none of that will happen if they level the franchise tag. That's the $6.3 million question right now: will they really do it?

[HairOnFire]

If you break down the deal the Raiders game Warren, he only makes about a million more over the first two years than he would have in Cincy. The rest of the contract -- the part that makes it look like they blew the Bengals away -- is all smoke.

I'll agree that the Sapp contract was little more than a 2-year deal that was puffed up to look larger due to Sapps ego. That was a desired outcome for an aging player who had tired of hearing for years about his declining play...and worth. But it's not out of the question that Sapp will only play those two seasons before retiring. It may even be likely. Meanwhile, Rudi is a young player with only two seasons of wear whose career is ahead of him.

In addition, Sapp is a player who was highly drafted, had already been paid vast riches for years, and was likely seeking his last contract. It's not insignificant that the Raiders offer was a million dollars more in the first two years than that of tyhe Bengals. It's still a million bucks. By comparison, Rudi was a modestly paid mid round draft pick who came out early due to financial hardship. He's now in a position to seek the most important contract he'll ever sign, and he's going to want a realistic contract that provides real security. Unlike Sapp, Rudi might wish to remain a Bengal but he's not going to do so if it costs him real money.

That said, your point about some players agreeing to contracts that they know will have to be renegotiated in 3 or 4 years is well taken. Some players knowingly play that game because they know that renegotiating means double dipping from the signing bonus pool. But the point I responded to dealt with a young player agreeing to incentive triggers that were almost impossible to reach or a deal so heavily backloaded that the money agreed to would never be paid. I simply don't see Rudi agreeing to that type of contract at this point in his career. This is his all-important 2nd deal.

Last, I'll repeat my opinion that the reason the Bengals haven't offered a deal so large that it blows Rudi out of the water is because they see no reason to bid against themselves. And Rudi hasn't agreed to any deal yet because he's wisely waiting to see if the Bengals will use the tag. Both sides are showing resolve and patience.

The endgame simply isn't here yet.

[Dewboy01]

In all liklihood, it's either him or nothing. Despite the talk of a franchise-and-trade scenario, I believe its against the tag rules to tag someone with the express purpose of trading them.

Actually it isn't uncommon for teams to use the franchise tag for this purpose. Buffalo did it acouple of years ago to steal a first round pick from Atlanta for Peerless Price and the Redskins franchised Champ Bailey last year before dealing him to the Broncos for Clinton Portis. According to Len Pasquarelli on espn.com it will be happening more often.

I would prefer we tag Rudi and deal him for a draft pick or defensive help, rather then let him walk for nothing. I certainly don't want to pay him the franchise tag $$ when we have Perry(who will break out next year!) and need to be able to spend those $$ on DEFENSE.

[bengalboomer7]

Everybody keeps saying Perry will break out next year, Well I sure as hell would like to see some game tape to prove that, cause if you don't have the game tape then you must have your fingers crossed awful tight!!!

[membengal]

Everybody keeps saying Perry will break out next year, Well I sure as hell would like to see some game tape to prove that, cause if you don't have the game tape then you must have your fingers crossed awful tight!!!

How much game tape did we have on CP coming into 2004? Not much.

I trust that CP can carry the load b/c otherwise, I don't think ML would have drafted him. I refuse to believe that, after the last two solid drafts we have seen, that ML is busy throwing picks away on projects.

If Rudi is too expensive and isn't back, I will not be nearly as bothered about it as I would have been in the Shula/Coslet/LeBeau days. That's because I happen to trust this coach and his assistants in ways I thought I could never trust a Bengals coach again.

It will all work itself out. I rest easy in this knowledge...ML isn't happy with mediocrity.