FonzieDog Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Look, last season Rudi set that record as a result of being the player who gave the Bengals the best opportunity to win games. I've heard Marvin say before that run defense is an entire team effort, not just defensive line or linebackers (something to that effect). I agree with that and I think the same principle can be applied to the running game on the offensive side of the ball. Rudi didn't set the franchise rushing record himself. It was him running the ball, Palmer spreading the defense, offensive line blocking, receivers blocking downfield and running routes, and the coaches scheme. Rudi is not the running game but rather a team effort. He's not irreplaceable. Nobody is. I would rather have Rudi over Perry at this point but not to the detriment of the rest of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubThumper Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I don't think it's self-evident enough that winning prevails over rushing records in importance to warrant scoffing. The emphasis was on rushing records, especially with regard to Rudi's individual effort. I saw Rudi get blown up at the point of contact enough to suspect that the patchwork line that the Bengals fielded early in the season was getting more push than they were being credit for to put up Rudi's rushing numbers. I think the reminder that the hated one put up big rushing numbers on losing teams was salient. I'd add the further reminder that Walter Payton put up even more stellar numbers on bad teams until the Bears got some better players - mainly on defense. Even at that, the Bears should have won more than they did, but they never diversified their offense. On the other hand, New England won two Superbowls before they picked up the hated one. The hated one's personal best season has been helpful to the Patriots, but it is meaninful only because the team is good enough to make it so. Those records in Cincinnati really meant very little beyond the hated one's potential hall of fame bid because the team sucked. It's still arguable that the Bengals aren't quite good enough accross the board to be in the position to break the bank for a single one-dimensional back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schweinhart Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Heard on the radio last night that it would cost the Colts over 6 million to franchise Edgerin James. If that's the going rate for Rudi that's about 3 million too much. $6.3 mill is the franchise.Bengals might transition tag Rudi to make it look like they just didn't let him walk.But I'll say it one last time.Rooooodeeeee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Well I'm predicting that until the Bengals have another RB step up and actually prove he can play at least as well as Rudi...they will work out some kind of arrangement to keep him. So far no RB currently on the roster has come even close to doing that.I seriously doubt Marvin would be stupid enough to head into the 2005 season without a serious threat at RB to compliment Carson Palmer. Teams wouldn't respect the run and would spend the entire game blitzing our still young and relatively inexperienced QB! Eff that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontPushMe Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Chris Perry will be a huge upgrade over Rudi Johnson next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Chris Perry will be a huge upgrade over Rudi Johnson next year. Let's hope, but honestly you don't have anyway to know this for certain. Just because you were drafted #1 doesn't make you a lock for success. Especially in Cincinnati! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Again, the best argument for allowing Rudi to leave begins and ends with saving a couple bags of money at the RB position and using it in free agency...presumably at defensive positions of true weakness. So who amongst us thinks the Bengals are going to be able to make that haul? Who thinks they can seal that deal? Me.Apologies for the late reply, been on the road. Let me just hit a few high points.Re Rudi's durability: let us not forget that he spent the early part of the 2003 season sitting on the bench with a thigh bruise. He played a full season last year, yes. So did many others. He is not unusually invulnerable.Re the don't-dump-our-best-offensive-weapon argument, I agree. It's just that I wasn't aware there was any danger of us dumping Carson Palmer. Re the we-should-spend-$6.3-million-onRudi-because-no-defensive-player-will-take-the-money argument: ha!Re the "second tier players" argument, well, Tory James has worked out pretty well. Rogers Beckett was 1 for 2 (years). Thornton has been adequate, if overpaid. Clemons has been a good pickup. Only Hardy has been a real bust. Our FA defensive track record has been pretty good, and I'm willing to load up the war chest and go hunting again.Re the unproven Chris Perry argument: true. I also don't care. No risk, no reward. I say roll the dice. You don't like the call? Tough noogies. I'm rolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I seriously doubt Marvin would be stupid enough to head into the 2005 season without a serious threat at RB to compliment Carson Palmer. Teams wouldn't respect the run and would spend the entire game blitzing our still young and relatively inexperienced QB! Eff that! I'd agree, except that I said the exact same thing last offseason, just in reference to Corey Dillon. Well, I was wrong again (nothing new).Think of it this way: the big complaint about letting Rudi go is that we would only have an "unproven" running back.Well, if we fork up boatloads of cash for Rudi -- and it looks like that's what it will take -- and have to rely on the draft to improve our defense...just how "proven" are those rookies...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Re Rudi's durability: let us not forget that he spent the early part of the 2003 season sitting on the bench with a thigh bruise. He played a full season last year, yes. So did many others. He is not unusually invulnerable. Five words: Hamstring. Hamstring again. Sports hernia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Re the don't-dump-our-best-offensive-weapon argument, I agree. It's just that I wasn't aware there was any danger of us dumping Carson Palmer. Nice creative editing. However, I called Rudi the offensive player who best protected the Bengals inept run defense. Argue that if you wish. I'll add now that in the previous season Rudi proved he could his thing without the consistent deep passing threat provided by Palmer. That said, watching Carson Palmer without a strong running game to keep defenses honest is something I'm not in a hurry to witness. Quite frankly, I'm completely unconvinced that the Bengals can't afford to keep Rudi. I also wonder if Perry wasn't drafted largely to be a complimentary player who provides exceptional depth at a critical position....a far cry from the popular opinion that RB's are such a dime-a-dozen commodity that Perry's arrival dictates Rudi's departure. Don't agree? Tough noogies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Re the we-should-spend-$6.3-million-onRudi-because-no-defensive-player-will-take-the-money argument: ha! Well said. Ha indeed. However, I've never claimed that no defensive player will take the money the Bengals save after clipping coupons at the RB position. The idea that I've mocked is the popular fan fantasy that this is the year that the Bengals will finally land one or two examples of elite free agent defensive help. Sorry, I can't see it happening. So what we're probably talking about is tagging Rudi in favor of adding one or two 2nd or 3rd level free agents. That's simply not enticing enough for me to support dumping a young 1500 yard rusher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Nice creative editing.Well, thankee. You were expecting something else, perhaps? However, I called Rudi the offensive player who best protected the Bengals inept run defense. Argue that if you wish.I would, but the guys over at football outsiders have already done the job here at http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb.php There's no doubting Rudi's strong total value, but his play-by-play value and overall success are very pedestrian. (In other words, he gets stuffed on 3rd down too much, among other things, something that was a regular observation around here.)Will write more. However, it's Friday night and the Coronamobile just pulled up outside, so I have to go! See you (hung over) tomorrow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Think of it this way: the big complaint about letting Rudi go is that we would only have an "unproven" running back.Well, if we fork up boatloads of cash for Rudi -- and it looks like that's what it will take -- and have to rely on the draft to improve our defense...just how "proven" are those rookies...? So when it comes to Perry we're supposed to shrug our collective shoulders and endlessly repeat..."In Marvin we trust." But when it comes to improving the defense through the draft we're all going to gasp for breath, wring our collective hands, and sweat bullets profusely? Please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 There's no doubting Rudi's strong total value, but his play-by-play value and overall success are very pedestrian. (In other words, he gets stuffed on 3rd down too much, among other things, something that was a regular observation around here.) So what were Perry's rushing stats on 3rd down last season? What's that, he didn't actually manage to stay healthy for 3 rushing downs? Oh my. Well then, lets just assume that he'd win every stat based debate...even though he didn't actually produce any stats worth mentioning. Then again, that seems a little bit dubious and more than a little unfair. BTW, did your stats mention the Bengals offensive line issues, their fairly long history of having short-yardage rushing problems, or the fact that for many seasons a supposedly elite RB named Leon frequently had trouble getting back to the LOS on many of his runs. Just curious. Last, resigning Rudi Johnson doesn't prevent this team from using Perry in the complimentary 3rd down role I think he was drafted to fill....assuming for a moment that Perry could finally pass Watson on the depth chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 I also wonder if Perry wasn't drafted largely to be a complimentary player who provides exceptional depth at a critical position....a far cry from the popular opinion that RB's are such a dime-a-dozen commodity that Perry's arrival dictates Rudi's departure.You really believe the Bengals used their first pick for a "complimentary player"? The idea that I've mocked is the popular fan fantasy that this is the year that the Bengals will finally land one or two examples of elite free agent defensive help. Sorry, I can't see it happening.Why? So when it comes to Perry we're supposed to shrug our collective shoulders and endlessly repeat..."In Marvin we trust."Yes. But when it comes to improving the defense through the draft we're all going to gasp for breath, wring our collective hands, and sweat bullets profusely?We can have all the offensive threats in the world, but no defense=no championship. See Indianapolis. What's that, he didn't actually manage to stay healthy for 3 rushing downs? Oh my.What's the point when Rudi is doing well and Watson filled in alright? I mean, if we can use the "protection" theory with Carson, why not make sure Perry is ready to go to start '05 in case Rudi isn't on the team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schweinhart Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 I seriously doubt Marvin would be stupid enough to head into the 2005 season without a serious threat at RB to compliment Carson Palmer. Teams wouldn't respect the run and would spend the entire game blitzing our still young and relatively inexperienced QB! Eff that! While it's true Kenny Watson can't be considered a "serious threat" at RB yet, he does have some #s to back up that he gets the job done, which is why he's on the roster.In 2 years w/ carries, Watson ran 142-695 (4.9 yd avg.). Last year, he was 10-67 on 3rd down w/ six 1st downs. Plus, he's had 57 catches for 424 yds combined last year and 2002 for Skins.Watson's 695 run yds are a far cry from Rudi's 2,400 over the past 2 yrs. However, Rudi's 36 catches for 230 yds don't stack up w/ Watson's receiving #s.Overall, I would say that Kenny Watson is actually more of a threat at the RB position than Rudi because of his versatility. But can he carry 300 times for 1,300 yds and keep the inept run D off the field? If he gets the chance, I'd say yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turningpoint Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 I also wonder if Perry wasn't drafted largely to be a complimentary player who provides exceptional depth at a critical position....a far cry from the popular opinion that RB's are such a dime-a-dozen commodity that Perry's arrival dictates Rudi's departure.You really believe the Bengals used their first pick for a "complimentary player"? The idea that I've mocked is the popular fan fantasy that this is the year that the Bengals will finally land one or two examples of elite free agent defensive help. Sorry, I can't see it happening.Why? So when it comes to Perry we're supposed to shrug our collective shoulders and endlessly repeat..."In Marvin we trust."Yes. But when it comes to improving the defense through the draft we're all going to gasp for breath, wring our collective hands, and sweat bullets profusely?We can have all the offensive threats in the world, but no defense=no championship. See Indianapolis. What's that, he didn't actually manage to stay healthy for 3 rushing downs? Oh my.What's the point when Rudi is doing well and Watson filled in alright? I mean, if we can use the "protection" theory with Carson, why not make sure Perry is ready to go to start '05 in case Rudi isn't on the team? what he said, we will get an ELITE TOP FREE AGENT...]mark my word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontPushMe Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 We don't have the cap room to make a big free agent signing. Even if we did they wouldnt actually sign here, they would just use us for leverage like they always do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 You really believe the Bengals used their first pick for a "complimentary player"? Yeah, I do. But I'm one of those guys who hated the Perry pick from day one and I've had a fairly hard time understanding why that draft pick wasn't used on....wait for it....the defense. Then again, I was already sold on what Rudi could do....so in retrospect I was free to hope the Bengals would actually do last year what so many of you are hoping they do this year. (Heavy Sigh?) At best, the Perry pick smacks of a team looking to solidify depth at a critical position while gaining the immediate services of a player who could fill an important role. At it's worst it smacks of a team spending/wasting a high draft pick to gain bargaining leverage in contract talks....something the Bengals have done before. Then again, I guess Perry could actually be better than Rudi....though none of his loudest backers seem willing to bet that Perry will break Rudi's rushing record anytime soon. And to that last point I have to say...good call. I wouldn't make that bet either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalNation1281 Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Here's what I never understood about the Perry choice in the 2004 draft:Chris Gamble, Karlos Dansby, Igor Olshansky, Teddy Lehman, Ahmad Carroll, and Jason Babin were all late-first or early-second rounders. While Carroll and Dansby are still works in progress (and yes, I know that Carroll was selected at #25, but this was after we traded #24 to the Rams), Olshansky(DT), Lehman(OLB), and Babin(DE) were all starters and/or impact players in their first year. I know that we would still need some of these things this year, but we could have had these players stepping in and making an impact in year 1 instead of drafting a position that wasn't an immediate need and a player that ended up hurt all freakin' year.I loved the rest of the draft, but Round 1 still baffles me. I wish we could have seen the Smith/Babin DE combo, or had Igor's crazy rooskie ass drilling people at the line.But since we can't change things, I hope that Perry steps up this year and makes me glad that we wasted a first-round pick on him. I mean, he is better than Rudi and all... (who am I?)BN1281 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobcat Bengal Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 But since we can't change things, I hope that Perry steps up this year and makes me glad that we wasted a first-round pick on him. I mean, he is better than Rudi and all... (who am I?)BN1281 Uhm, it would only be WASTING the pick if he doesn't perform.If he outperforms Rudi, then that would be a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalNation1281 Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 It feels like a waste right now. That's all I meant.If he outperforms Rudi, then I guess he was worth it. We shall have to wait and see...BN1281 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Then again, I guess Perry could actually be better than Rudi....though none of his loudest backers seem willing to bet that Perry will break Rudi's rushing record anytime soon. Well, I'll tell ya what, ol' son...if the Bengals do let Rudi go and make Perry the starter, I'll be happy to give you the chance to even the score. If Perry's the starter, he will have more all-purpose yards in '05 than Rudi in '04. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Then again, I guess Perry could actually be better than Rudi....though none of his loudest backers seem willing to bet that Perry will break Rudi's rushing record anytime soon.Well, I'll tell ya what, ol' son...if the Bengals do let Rudi go and make Perry the starter, I'll be happy to give you the chance to even the score. If Perry's the starter, he will have more all-purpose yards in '05 than Rudi in '04. Pick your weapon...err....your booze of choice, and the bet is on. And here's your magic number: 1,539 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Well, of course, we have to see if they actually make Perry the starter first...but if they do, it's on.I had my choice last time, I'll let you pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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