Dillon vs. Rudi

[HoosierCat]

So you are saying that if we don't give up big runs then a 4 ypc average is good run defense. Usually running backs need the big runs just to get to the 4 ypc average.

A 4 ypc average looks pretty good if it's Jamal going 17 for 68 yards, doesn't it? Had the Bengals managed to do as well on those 2 runs as we did on the other 15 we would have been talking about our awesome run D. And as kirk points out those big plays are usually either scoring plays or put the other team in position for easy points. What the D did in the DC game was precisely that: shut down the big plays by Portis. That gave the offense the opportunity to pile up a lead and discourage DC from running. They took advantage of that opportunity, as you noted.

It's been said before: it's a team game. Both sides need to do their jobs.

[oldschooler]

"About 60 of those yards came on 15 runs. The other 125 came on two scampers resulting from missed tackles."

So you are saying that if we don't give up big runs then a 4 ypc average is good run defense. Usually running backs need the big runs just to get to the 4 ypc average.

The patriots are allowing an average of 4.0 yards per carry.

There are only 13 teams in the NFL that allow less than

4 yards per carry...and 1 is the 49`ers and another is the Raiders.

The Bengals have only given up 8 rushing TD`s all season.

That is less than 3 teams that are ranked in the top 10.

And only 2 more than Baltimore has.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-...NG/2004/regular

[jditty47]

fact still remains, dillon is better than rudi. look what hes doing this year with an actual quarterback to play with. Hes blowing up, and his YAC is better than rudi's. Rudi is corey's backup if they are on the same team. As everyone said, rudi is solid and has had good qb's to play with , dillon did not. dillon was the focal point, rudi is not. there are a ton of reasons why dillon is a better back. Dont get me wrong, rudi is a good back, just not a great one. He needs to improve in alot of areas before i start calling him a great back...like mb hitting the gd holes for starters.

[oldschooler]

fact still remains, dillon is better than rudi. look what hes doing this year with an actual quarterback to play with. Hes blowing up, and his YAC is better than rudi's. Rudi is corey's backup if they are on the same team. As everyone said, rudi is solid and has had good qb's to play with , dillon did not. dillon was the focal point, rudi is not. there are a ton of reasons why dillon is a better back. Dont get me wrong, rudi is a good back, just not a great one. He needs to improve in alot of areas before i start calling him a great back...like mb hitting the gd holes for starters.

How can you say that Rudi hasn`t been the focal point ?

Teams have stacked the line all year to stop him and

make a ROOKIE STARTING QB beat them....which he has.

[shasta]

No, they didn't stop Portis. He was averaging 5 ypc I think. Washington just abandoned the run trying to play catch up.

Portis didn`t get 100 yards and had 0 TD`s.

That IS stopping him reguardless of WHY you say they didn`t.

Anyway this thread isn`t about the Bengals Defense.

BUT if you think they won`t be more motivated

than EVER to shut a RB down ....then you`re fooling yourself.

Dillon was pissed and wanting to shut up the fans in Cincinnati

in pre-season. He averaged 2.8 yards a carry.

I know it was pre-season....but I believe they will be MORE

MOTIVATED to shut him down this Sunday as they were THEN.

I was goin to let you ramble on with your Dillon hatred and not respond at all, that is until you brought up the pre-season. Now if you think that preseason game has any bearing at all on this game your kidding yourself.

[DavidGivens]

motivation means jack if you dont have the talent

[redsfan2]

Yawn !!!!!!!!

I get sooooooooo tired of hearing about Dildon. Next it'll be about Spikes and I'm sick of hearing about him too.

They .... are ..... gone. They're glad they're gone .... I'm glad that they're glad they're gone .... but most of all I'm just plain glad they're gone.

Dillon has all the ability he needs, but he wasn't going to use it here so good riddance. Spikes is the best linebacker that ever played 7 yards off the line of scrimmage. I'm glad he's gone too.

With those guys, we were usually winning 3 or 4 games a year. Without them we went 8 n 8 last year and will probably better that mark by 1 this year. Looking at it that way we're better off without them.

One of the local sportswriters suggested that we make Spikes the MVP last year because by leaving we were able to sign several good players. Same case can be made for Dildon this year seeing as how we got Williams who's turning out just fine Thank You !

PS I don't hate either of them. In fact I don't think of them at all unless they're brought back up ........ Kinda like that Taco you had for lunch ... ya know ???????

[oldschooler]

No, they didn't stop Portis. He was averaging 5 ypc I think. Washington just abandoned the run trying to play catch up.

Portis didn`t get 100 yards and had 0 TD`s.

That IS stopping him reguardless of WHY you say they didn`t.

Anyway this thread isn`t about the Bengals Defense.

BUT if you think they won`t be more motivated

than EVER to shut a RB down ....then you`re fooling yourself.

Dillon was pissed and wanting to shut up the fans in Cincinnati

in pre-season. He averaged 2.8 yards a carry.

I know it was pre-season....but I believe they will be MORE

MOTIVATED to shut him down this Sunday as they were THEN.

I was goin to let you ramble on with your Dillon hatred and not respond at all, that is until you brought up the pre-season. Now if you think that preseason game has any bearing at all on this game your kidding yourself.

Hmmmm your teams head coach seems to think it does.

He was fuming over it when it was happening and he is still

fuming over it.

Quick hits: Belichick recalls preseason loss

Bill Belichick has coached his Patriots to two out of the last three Super Bowl titles, an NFL-record 21 straight wins, 17 straight home wins, and an 11-1 record this season.

But he says his team trying to catch up to the Bengals in time for Sunday’s game in Foxboro, clearly still livid about the 31-3 loss at Paul Brown Stadium back on Aug. 21.

“You can say that it didn’t matter, but we were all there,” Belichick said during his Cincinnati media conference call Wednesday. “Believe me, we weren’t going out there trying to do that.

http://www.bengals.com/press/notebook.asp?...=0&notes_id=703

Looks like it matters to the guy that matters most.

[Diesel]

First of all: Dillon is a better RB than Rudi, however our team is better off with Rudi.

Secondly: 13 teams allowing less than 4 ypc is over 40% of the league, and that includes big runs. That would put our run defense, based on the Jamal Lewis example, in the middle of the pack not including big plays, which obviously makes it worse. The flaw in your statement is that you did not see what the teams are allowing if you take away the big runs (defined as over say 12 yds?). If you do that analysis, I am willing to bet that over half of the teams in the league are holding RBs to less than 4 ypc. Hell, the Bengals might even be holding RBs to under 4 ypc. I said that RBs need big runs to get over the 4 ypc mark. So even if a back averaged 4.6 ypc, they may have averaged 3.2 ypc if you take away 2 or 3 big runs. Therefore, you are comparing apples to oranges and the analysis you gave holds no water.

By the way, Rudi is only averaging 4.1 ypc and he needed the big runs against the clowns to get over the 4 ypc mark.

[oldschooler]

First of all: Dillon is a better RB than Rudi, however our team is better off with Rudi.

Secondly: 13 teams allowing less than 4 ypc is over 40% of the league, and that includes big runs. That would put our run defense, based on the Jamal Lewis example, in the middle of the pack not including big plays, which obviously makes it worse. The flaw in your statement is that you did not see what the teams are allowing if you take away the big runs (defined as over say 12 yds?). If you do that analysis, I am willing to bet that over half of the teams in the league are holding RBs to less than 4 ypc. Hell, the Bengals might even be holding RBs to under 4 ypc. I said that RBs need big runs to get over the 4 ypc mark. So even if a back averaged 4.6 ypc, they may have averaged 3.2 ypc if you take away 2 or 3 big runs. Therefore, you are comparing apples to oranges and the analysis you gave holds no water.

By the way, Rudi is only averaging 4.1 ypc and he needed the big runs against the clowns to get over the 4 ypc mark.

Rudi has been the focal point of other teams

defenses all year. He has a ROOKIE STARTING QB

behind him.

He has played 9 games against 7 of the top defenses in the

NFL.

Steelers #1 (twice and he was the only RB to rush for over 100 against them)

Washington #2 (over 100 against them...won the game)

Denver #5 (119 yards and won the game)

Jets #6

Miami#7

Baltimore #8 (twice played ....had 23 carries for 98 yards the 1st game

and 42 total carries for 154 yards in both games)

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-...ar?sort_col_1=4

Rudi is on pace to break Dillon`s single season franchise record of

1435 yards. He has 1105 yards after 12 games. He needs to average

82.5 yards a game the next 4 games to break it.

Teams have stacked the line to stop Rudi and force Palmer to beat them.

And Rudi is still on pace to do better than Dillon did.

[Diesel]

I agree with all of that. Don' think that teams are focused on the run more now than they were when Dillon was here though. The biggest argument in your favor is how tough the defense's we have played have been. I'm not trying to knock Rudi. I'm just saying that we shouldn't set aside a spot in the Hall of Fame just yet. We should for Dillon. He has a lot to prove before he can be considered as good as Dillon. Anyway, my second point remains unchallenged by everything you said. I

[Kirkendall]

Yawn !!!!!!!!

I get sooooooooo tired of hearing about Dildon. Next it'll be about Spikes and I'm sick of hearing about him too.

They .... are ..... gone. They're glad they're gone .... I'm glad that they're glad they're gone .... but most of all I'm just plain glad they're gone.

Dillon has all the ability he needs, but he wasn't going to use it here so good riddance. Spikes is the best linebacker that ever played 7 yards off the line of scrimmage. I'm glad he's gone too.

With those guys, we were usually winning 3 or 4 games a year. Without them we went 8 n 8 last year and will probably better that mark by 1 this year. Looking at it that way we're better off without them.

One of the local sportswriters suggested that we make Spikes the MVP last year because by leaving we were able to sign several good players. Same case can be made for Dildon this year seeing as how we got Williams who's turning out just fine Thank You !

PS I don't hate either of them. In fact I don't think of them at all unless they're brought back up ........ Kinda like that Taco you had for lunch ... ya know ???????

Well said Bozo. How the hell have you been? Good to see ya 'round these parts again...

[Kirkendall]

First of all: Dillon is a better RB than Rudi, however our team is better off with Rudi.

Secondly: 13 teams allowing less than 4 ypc is over 40% of the league, and that includes big runs. That would put our run defense, based on the Jamal Lewis example, in the middle of the pack not including big plays, which obviously makes it worse. The flaw in your statement is that you did not see what the teams are allowing if you take away the big runs (defined as over say 12 yds?). If you do that analysis, I am willing to bet that over half of the teams in the league are holding RBs to less than 4 ypc. Hell, the Bengals might even be holding RBs to under 4 ypc. I said that RBs need big runs to get over the 4 ypc mark. So even if a back averaged 4.6 ypc, they may have averaged 3.2 ypc if you take away 2 or 3 big runs. Therefore, you are comparing apples to oranges and the analysis you gave holds no water.

By the way, Rudi is only averaging 4.1 ypc and he needed the big runs against the clowns to get over the 4 ypc mark.

Rudi has been the focal point of other teams

defenses all year. He has a ROOKIE STARTING QB

behind him.

He has played 9 games against 7 of the top defenses in the

NFL.

Steelers #1 (twice and he was the only RB to rush for over 100 against them)

Washington #2 (over 100 against them...won the game)

Denver #5 (119 yards and won the game)

Jets #6

Miami#7

Baltimore #8 (twice played ....had 23 carries for 98 yards the 1st game

and 42 total carries for 154 yards in both games)

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-...ar?sort_col_1=4

Rudi is on pace to break Dillon`s single season franchise record of

1435 yards. He has 1105 yards after 12 games. He needs to average

82.5 yards a game the next 4 games to break it.

Teams have stacked the line to stop Rudi and force Palmer to beat them.

And Rudi is still on pace to do better than Dillon did.

I don't know will far... err, oldschool. I think this team has a very balanced attack, especially in recent games. I'm very pleased with the offensive progress between Carson making good reads and showing more confident and Rudi going back to his 2003 form finding holes and exploding through them -- didn't do that as much in the beginning.

Rudi, for the Bengals offense TODAY is the perfect fit. Corey, YESTERDAY, was the perfect back.

Today, this team has a very team-like atmosphere now -- not like Corey's day -- and that's the biggest point between the discussion of Rudi and Corey for me.

The problem with this argument is some are looking from the perspective of the best running back period. Others look at it from the team perspective -- that's what should be argued.

[redsfan2]

Yawn !!!!!!!!

I get sooooooooo tired of hearing about Dildon. Next it'll be about Spikes and I'm sick of hearing about him too.

They .... are ..... gone. They're glad they're gone .... I'm glad that they're glad they're gone .... but most of all I'm just plain glad they're gone.

Dillon has all the ability he needs, but he wasn't going to use it here so good riddance. Spikes is the best linebacker that ever played 7 yards off the line of scrimmage. I'm glad he's gone too.

With those guys, we were usually winning 3 or 4 games a year. Without them we went 8 n 8 last year and will probably better that mark by 1 this year. Looking at it that way we're better off without them.

One of the local sportswriters suggested that we make Spikes the MVP last year because by leaving we were able to sign several good players. Same case can be made for Dildon this year seeing as how we got Williams who's turning out just fine Thank You !

PS I don't hate either of them. In fact I don't think of them at all unless they're brought back up ........ Kinda like that Taco you had for lunch ... ya know ???????

Well said Bozo. How the hell have you been? Good to see ya 'round these parts again...

Been gone too long. Unfortunately unavoidable. Been keeping an eye on things, but haven't really had time for a good sit down with you guys till now.

Good to see all the new faces ..... and most of the old ones as well.

[HoosierCat]

I said that RBs need big runs to get over the 4 ypc mark. So even if a back averaged 4.6 ypc, they may have averaged 3.2 ypc if you take away 2 or 3 big runs.

Take away Jamal's 2 big runs from the previous example...and he still has 4 ypc...feel free to keep trying, tho.

[Kirkendall]

Been gone too long. Unfortunately unavoidable. Been keeping an eye on things, but haven't really had time for a good sit down with you guys till now.

Good to see all the new faces ..... and most of the old ones as well.

Keep ya busy, eh? Do you get Sirius? If not, and if you can, you should look into getting it if your on the road to listen to the Bengals.... I think Sirius does MLB also, and you can never get enough of the Reds..

[oldschooler]

I agree with all of that. Don' think that teams are focused on the run more now than they were when Dillon was here though. The biggest argument in your favor is how tough the defense's we have played have been. I'm not trying to knock Rudi. I'm just saying that we shouldn't set aside a spot in the Hall of Fame just yet. We should for Dillon. He has a lot to prove before he can be considered as good as Dillon. Anyway, my second point remains unchallenged by everything you said. I

Well if we are comparing career`s then duh hands

down Dillon`s is without a doubt more impressive and

this is a dumbass thread.

But Rudi is only 25 years old and he is on the verge

of having a better season for the Bengals than Dillon

EVER DID. Plus he has rushed for 150 yards in 3 games

in 1 season something Dillon NEVER did and Rudi only had 5 starts.

Plus I don`t think people are taking into account how much

the loss of Peter Warrick has hurt the running game.

He is without a doubt our BEST BLOCKING WR !

What 2nd point ?

The 4.1 ypc average ? I thought by saying that he

has played in 9 games against top 10 defenses while

having a rookie STARTING QB behind him was enough ?

If not we can go into Rudi`s season in detail.

Like starting out the season against the Jets, Dolphins and Ravens

their 1st three games (all 3 are top 10 defenses) and Rudi having

a 3.4 avg per carry in those three games.

Those defenses were definitely stacked up at the line to stop the run.

Here let`s look at Rudi AFTER the bye.

The Broncos he had 119 yard on 24 carries.

The Titans he only had 17 carries 57 yards

and the Bengals were playing catch up.

Dallas he had 26 carries for 95 yards.

Redskins 31 carries for 101 yards. (the same amount of carries

and 1 more yard than what Bettis got against the Redskins)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20041128_WAS@PIT

Steelers he had 16 carries for 62 yards. BUT at the half Rudi had

11 carries for 47 yards and a 4.3 yard avg. The Bengals only gave

him the ball 5 times in the 2nd half.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20041121_PIT@CIN

Against the Browns he had 26 carries for 202 yards and a 7.8 ypc avg.

This last game against the Ravens he had 19 carries for 56 yards.

Horrible game for him. He had a 2.3 ypc avg at the half and only had

6 rushes the 2nd half.

But the Ravens were geared to stop the run and they did.

Rudi was hit in the backfield and never had a minus yardage carry.

When Kenny Watson went down Rudi came in and picked up

blitzes to give Palmer enough time to make plays and WIN the game.

Ok ....enough about that.

[Kirkendall]

this is a dumbass thread.

Why do you keep responding then?

[oldschooler]

this is a dumbass thread.

Why do you keep responding then?

I said IF this is about comparing CAREERS

then this is a dumbass thread.

Get it ?

[Kirkendall]

this is a dumbass thread.

Why do you keep responding then?

I said IF this is about comparing CAREERS

then this is a dumbass thread.

Get it ?

Ahhh, thanks. You break up your sentences and it looks like a different thought; some people do that here.

[Diesel]

"Take away Jamal's 2 big runs from the previous example...and he still has 4 ypc...feel free to keep trying, tho. "

Feel free to read my entire post as well as the posts I was responding to. You just proved my point.

[Diesel]

My second point was that our run defense sucks balls and that you taking away Jamal's 2 big runs and saying that he only gained 60 yards doesn't change that. It sucks plus it gives up big plays; it doesn't only suck because of the big plays (although it is a large contributing factor). My second point is the paragraph that begins with the word secondly.

I agree that Rudi is a good back. He's just not Dillon. The fact that he has gone up against such good defenses holds a lot of water, as does the fact that his stats have improved as defenses have had to worry about the pass more. I completely disagree that our run defense is good except for giving up the big play, which was my second point. Joisey Cat jumped in and took the post completely out of context.

[oldschooler]

"Take away Jamal's 2 big runs from the previous example...and he still has 4 ypc...feel free to keep trying, tho. "

Feel free to read my entire post as well as the posts I was responding to. You just proved my point.

What are you talking about ?

I never even mentioned Jamal Lewis.

And you`re talking about the same Jamal

Lewis that rushed 20 time for 57 yards and

had a 2.9 ypc avg against the Clowns

to kick off the season right ? The same Clowns

team that Rudi rushed for 202 yards against.

Anyway I don`t know what you`re talking about ?

[Diesel]

My fault, Joisey Cat made the Jamal comment.

"The Bengals' problem against the run has not been a poor run defense per se, it's been giving up the big play, often on run but also on passes. Case in point is the infamous Baltimore game early this season when Jamal Lewis trampled the Bengals for 186. About 60 of those yards came on 15 runs. The other 125 came on two scampers resulting from missed tackles."

My second point was an argument about the above quote. And I wasn't comparing him to Rudi. (although he is a better back than Rudi)

[HoosierCat]

He's mashing your and my conversations with him together, oldschooler. I've done my best to pick out the thread of my own discussion, which would hark back to this remark by diesel:

I said that RBs need big runs to get over the 4 ypc mark.

To which I replied:

Take away Jamal's 2 big runs from the previous example...and he still has 4 ypc...feel free to keep trying, tho.

Which seems pretty cut and dried to me...take away Jamal's big runs and he still has 4 ypc. Now, diesel wants to argue over the definition of "big," which he wants to peg at 12 or more yards. That isn't what I'm talking about when I talk about big plays. I'm talking about 50 and 75 yard runs, 99 yard pass plays, that sort of thing.

From redsfan2:

Yawn !!!!!!!!

Sorry to bore you, old chum, but I obviously have too much time on my hands! Good to see you back.